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Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?[W:200]

Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- LUDIN:

The holy spirit is not a god, is something that belongs to Jehovah. Look at the word that I bolded in red within your above quotation of Genesis 1:2 (which you did not surround with quotation signs).

The word "of" is a preposition that indicates ownership of something.


Of dictionary definition | of defined


The verse at Genesis 1:2 clearly says "the spirit OF God," indicating that the holy spirit belongs to Jehovah or is owned by Jehovah.



I will address your comments on John 1:1 later.
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I never said the Holy spirit was a god. that is a distortion of the argument. The Holy Spirit is a part of God. It is just one facet of God much in the way the God the Son is.

As you managed to ignore the rest of my post which indeed backs this up as not an ownership but as another facet to Him in general. As Christ before He leaves to ascend says that One Greater than Him will come and be present always. He is referring to the holy spirit.

Christ refers to God as God the Father and God refers to Christ as His Son.

which there is plenty of biblical evidence showing that there are in fact 3 beings that make up the being that is God.

also you are wrong about the meaning of el
The Hebrew Names for God - El

the problem that you have is that each hebrew word could have 3 or 4 different meanings. the reason for this was the limited number of letters in ancient hebrew. the only way to know how the word is used is by the context in which it is being written about.

while el can refer to god (pagan or false) in order to make the distinction when referring the Hebrew God it was always quantified with something else.

so if they would refer to baal they would write something like the el baal. they would not have quantified it with another word as to reference back to the True God.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

ludin said:
I never said the Holy spirit was a god. that is a distortion of the argument. The Holy Spirit is a part of God. It is just one facet of God much in the way the God the Son is.
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ALTER2EGO -to- LUDIN:

I have no need to "distort" your argument. I responded to what you wrote at Post 41, part of which I am quoting below.

ludin said:
Their is plenty of scriptural reference for the beings of God the Father, God the Son and God the holy spirit.

Genesis refers to God the Father and God the spirit.

And the earth was without form and void and the spirit of God moved on the waters. that i just one instance.
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You are arguing for trinity, which requires three gods combined into one. You distinctly referred to "God the spirit" at Post 41. You are now telling me that you meant God has "three facets." Your play with semantics is a pointless exercise, considering you are arguing for Christendom's 3-in-1 one god--which necessitates that the holy spirit be one of the three gods along with the Father and the Son.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

ludin said:
the Father and God refers to Christ as His Son.

which there is plenty of biblical evidence showing that there are in fact 3 beings that make up the being that is God.

also you are wrong about the meaning of el
The Hebrew Names for God - El
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ALTER2EGO -to- LUDIN:

Your own source confirms that the word "El" is used with reference to every single god, including false gods. That is the clue that it is merely a title and not a personal name.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- TOSCA1:

Wikipedia has a reputation for posting errors, that is the reason why I only use wikipedia as a secondary source, and I always back it up with other sources. The Hebrew word "El" is a title that is applied to every single god--including false gods.

Chapter 2 (God & Israel), Part I (NAMES for and CHARACTER of GOD)


You will find the above quotation at Paragraph 6 when you click the weblink.
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I'll agree with you about the reputation of Wiki.

However, your given source above is definitely unreliable. I didn't have to scroll down far to find something terribly amiss. Let me point them out to you.

YHWH or Yahweh, the “I AM”
The four-consonant Hebrew word “YHWH” is the name by which God called Himself after revealing Himself to Moses in a burning bush (Exo. 3:2a,14—see “the Angel of the Lord”: C-8, P-I, S-1); it means “I Am That I Am” or, more simply, “I AM.” This signifies that no one fully can describe or define God other than God Himself. “YHWH” is short for “Yahweh,” because the entire word was (and still is by many) regarded to be too sacred to speak or write. Many Christians use “Yahweh,” since Jesus taught us to speak in a familiar, personal manner to and about God.
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That's only partly true. First of all, YHVH is not short for Yahweh.

Second, No one knows exactly how YHVH is actually pronounced. "YAHWEH" is not exactly how it is said either since there's no "w" sound in Hebrew, but is the one that comes possibly close to the pronunciation because of the "YAH". What is "YAH?" The Hebrew Name for God - YAH

Third, YAHWEH is used not "because the entire word was (and still is by many) regarded to be too sacred to speak or write" as your source claims....but because no one knows exactly how to pronounce it!

Fourth, Many Christians probably use YAHWEH..... just because! I'm a perfect example of that. I've been learning why I'm using YAHWEH - which is a blessing - while responding to your post. :mrgreen:
To be more personal, I use "FATHER."

Because of all those stated errors, I didn't bother reading any farther down. Your source is not credible.


Here's my other source about YHVH.

Answer: The ancient Hebrew language that the Hebrew Scriptures were written in did not have vowels. In the original Hebrew, God’s name is given as "YHWH." This is known as the tetragrammaton. Because of the lack of vowels, Bible scholars debate how the tetragrammaton “YHWH” was pronounced.

Contrary to what some Christians (and at least one cult that uses this name) believe, “Jehovah” is probably not the Divine Name revealed to Israel. Due to the Jewish fear of accidentally taking God’s Name in vain (Leviticus 24:16), they basically quit saying it out-loud altogether. Instead, when reading, they substituted the actual tetragrammaton (which is only the consonants of the Divine Name “YHWH” since Hebrew is not usually written with vowels included) with the word Adonai (Lord). Even in the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament) the translators substituted Kurios (Lord) for the Divine Name. Eventually the vowels from Adonai (“Lord”) or Elohim (“God”) found their way into the consonants YHWH, thus forming “YaHWeH.” But this does not mean that was how God’s Name was originally pronounced.

So, what is God's name and what does it mean? The most likely choice for how the tetragrammaton was pronounced is "Yahweh" or something very similar to that. The name "Yahweh" refers to God's self-existence. "Yahweh" is linked with how God described Himself in Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God's name is a reflection of His being. God is the only self-existent / self-sufficient Being in the universe. Only God has life in and of Himself. That is the essential meaning of the tetragrammaton / YHWH / Yahweh.


Read more: What is YHWH? What is the tetragrammaton?



The Hebrew word "El" is a title that is applied to every single god--including false gods
Likewise, the Hebrew word "Elohim" is a title that can be applied to a singular god as well to plural gods--including false gods, and even to angels and humans in powerful positions.
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You must've missed reading this part from your own source:

Elohim, singular Eloah , (Hebrew: God), the God of Israel in the Old Testament. A plural of majesty, the term Elohim—though sometimes used for other deities, such as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings, judges (the Old Testament shofeṭim), and the Messiah—is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH, or Yahweh.
]When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, “the God,” and sometimes with a further identification Elohim ḥayyim, meaning “the living God."
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The last statement from your source supports my source: When used of the true God of Israel, EL is almost always qualified by additional words that further define the meaning that distinguish Him from false gods.



The title "g-o-d" can be compared with other titles such as "Mr." or "Miss" or "President" or "Judge," etc. A title is not a personal name.
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I don't think so. It may look that way at first glance when you look at EL ECHAD. However, the meaning of EL ECHAD is The One God. My Hebrew source says:

When used of the true God of Israel, EL is almost always qualified by additional words that further define the meaning that distinguish Him from false gods.


Anyway, your topic is about the Trinity, right? We're not talking about other gods, pagan or whatnots. We're talking about the Judeo-Christian God. I gave an explanation about EL in my previous post. Here:

The Hebrew Name of God - EL
It comes from a root word that means power, might, strenght, and probably derives from the ancient Semitic Ugaritic language (discovered in 1929 in the ruined city of Ugarit). This language is evidenced in writings from 14th through the 12 century BC.

When used in The Scriptures, the primary meanings of this root are god (pagan or false gods), "God" (the true God of Israel), and sometimes "the mighty" referring to men or angels.

When used of the true God of Israel, EL is almost always qualified by additional words that further define the meaning that distinguish Him from false gods.

Samples: EL ECHAD (One God), EL SHADDAI (The All-Sufficient God), EL ELYON (The Most High God), EL ROI (The God Who Sees Me), EL YISRAEL (The God of Israel), EL KANNO (The Jealous God), Immanuel (God is with us)....and tons more other names!



GOD - EL.(basic form)
The name for God meaning strength, might or power.
The basic form EL appears over 250 times in the Tanakh.
Appears primarily in construct relation when describing the God of Israel.
Click to expand...
The Hebrew Names for God - El



Back to the question about the Trinity.....do you concede to the fact that The Triunity of God has been there all along....all the way back from Genesis?
 
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Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- LUDIN:

The holy spirit is not a god, is something that belongs to Jehovah. Look at the word that I bolded in red within your above quotation of Genesis 1:2 (which you did not surround with quotation signs).

The word "of" is a preposition that indicates ownership of something.


Of dictionary definition | of defined


The verse at Genesis 1:2 clearly says "the spirit OF God," indicating that the holy spirit belongs to Jehovah or is owned by Jehovah.
Click to expand...



Forgive me for butting in, but I just couldn't help myself from responding.

When we read the Bible, we just do not rely on one line or one statement to understand the message. That usually takes the message out of context. The basics of reading and understanding the Bible is to read the whole paragraph....or even the whole Chapter if need be, to know what the subject is all about.

Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Yes, it did say, "the Spirit of God." However, when you reach verse 26, it reads:

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Based on those two verses, 1-2 and 26, God and (at least) the Spirit of God were clearly both present as YAHWEH created His creations.

And clearly, GOD speaks to the Spirit (at least that much is clearly shown from that verse. New Testament indicates another being - The Word - was also present).

Your argument about the usage of "of," indicating ownership actually supports the Triunity of God since they're all one in the Godhead, or GOD exists in three beings.


Explanation of the triune Godhead
What then does it mean that God exists as the Trinity? It is a basic principle of our biblical faith that there is only one God. “Hear, O Israel! The LORD our God, the LORD is one!” (Deuteronomy 6:4). The unity of the Godhead cannot be questioned. God does not consist of parts. He is one. But Scripture reveals that there are, in that one divine essence, three eternal distinctions. Those distinctions seem best described as Persons, known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three have identical attributes, however, and therefore they are one—not merely one in mind and purpose, but one in substance. To possess all the same attributes is to be one in essential nature. The three Persons of the Godhead possess identical attributes. They are one in substance and one in essence, and therefore they are one God.

Evidence for the Triune Godhead
While the primary emphasis of the Old Testament is on the unity of God, the indications of His triune nature are clearly seen even there. We need not read very far to find the first one: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Elohim, the Hebrew name for God in this verse, is plural. That may not prove the Trinity, but it definitely points to more than one Person in the Godhead. There was no other logical reason to choose a plural name. As such, we are not surprised, then, to hear Him say a short time later, “Let us make man in our image” (Genesis 1:26, emphasis added). The plural pronouns could not refer to angels because they were never associated with God in His creative activity. Consequently, more than one divine Person was clearly involved. The plural pronouns make no sense otherwise (Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:7).

Read more: What is the Godhead?
 
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Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- LUDIN:

I have no need to "distort" your argument. I responded to what you wrote at Post 41, part of which I am quoting below.



You are arguing for trinity, which requires three gods combined into one. You distinctly referred to "God the spirit" at Post 41. You are now telling me that you meant God has "three facets." Your play with semantics is a pointless exercise, considering you are arguing for Christendom's 3-in-1 one god--which necessitates that the holy spirit be one of the three gods along with the Father and the Son.
Click to expand...

This is called basic theology class. There are 3 parts of God in 1 being. this is referred to later on by the church as the trinity. They are each separate in their own but part of the same circle. God the Father refers to God himself, God the Son refers to Christ and God the Holy spirit is pretty much self explanatory.

The Holy Spirit is a facet of God. not God himself. so yes you are distorting the argument. They are separate in their own individuality as expressed in the bible but part of the God head.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- LUDIN:

Your own source confirms that the word "El" is used with reference to every single god, including false gods. That is the clue that it is merely a title and not a personal name.
Click to expand...

you evidently didn't read the whole thing because that is just part of what they say. i even quoted it to you and you still ignored it. why are you being dishonest when people show you where you are wrong?

el is a label for god. however when referring to the true God they qualify it with something else. The reason for that is that in those days it was blasphemy to reference God directly so they would use a term like all mighty one or something else in order to express about who they were referring to.

it was a sign of respect and reverence as well. again the word el has to be used in context of which it is written. so yes it would refer to a name as well as a title of something else.
i think you need to do a bit more research in the matter.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

tosca1 said:
I'll agree with you about the reputation of Wiki.

However, your given source above is definitely unreliable. I didn't have to scroll down far to find something terribly amiss. Let me point them out to you.

YHWH or Yahweh, the “I AM”
The four-consonant Hebrew word “YHWH” is the name by which God called Himself after revealing Himself to Moses in a burning bush (Exo. 3:2a,14—see “the Angel of the Lord”: C-8, P-I, S-1); it means “I Am That I Am” or, more simply, “I AM.” This signifies that no one fully can describe or define God other than God Himself. “YHWH” is short for “Yahweh,” because the entire word was (and still is by many) regarded to be too sacred to speak or write. Many Christians use “Yahweh,” since Jesus taught us to speak in a familiar, personal manner to and about God.
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ALTER2EGO -to- TOSCA1:

I hope you do not expect me to read that wall of text that you presented at Post 54, during which you argued over everything so that you could avoid confronting the fact that "El" is not the personal name of the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible--as you fallaciously claimed. Any expression that is applied to every single god such as the words "El" and "Elohim" cannot qualify as a personal name and are reduced to mere titles.


The source I quoted confirmed that the word "El" is nothing more than a title because it is applied to every single god in existence--including false gods. Your own source confirms that "El" is applied to every single god, including false gods. Deal with that.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Logicman said:
Wrong.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...did-trinity-teaching-come.html#post1062990041
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The first link has weak arguments which I've responded to over and over and over and over again, I can link to the debates if you want.

THe second 2 ... Have you READ those links?

They talk about the Zohar (The Zohar was written in the 1000s CE) ... This was written in the 1000s ... NOT ancient at all, and it's extremely esoteric, it's Kaballah which are extremely symbolic and metaphorical ... You won't find ONE Jewish Rabbi, or ONE Kabbahlist that actually believes in a Trinity. The "Trinity" is adonai (yahweh), eloheinu and adonai (yahweh), and it isn't an actual trinty .

Have you read the Zohar? have you read ABOUT the Zohar? Do you know what the Zohar is? Have you asked and Jewish Kabbahlist about the Zohar?

No you haven't, and neither have the writers of these articles you googled.

It's extremely dishonest to quote an esoteric jewish text from the 1000s you haven't read or read about speaking metaphorically and Things that you don't understand, and claim that teach Things that NO ONE WHO ACTUALLY STUDY THOSE TEXTS CLAIM.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

RGacky3 said:
The first link has weak arguments which I've responded to over and over and over and over again, I can link to the debates if you want.

THe second 2 ... Have you READ those links?

They talk about the Zohar (The Zohar was written in the 1000s CE) ... This was written in the 1000s ... NOT ancient at all, and it's extremely esoteric, it's Kaballah which are extremely symbolic and metaphorical ... You won't find ONE Jewish Rabbi, or ONE Kabbahlist that actually believes in a Trinity. The "Trinity" is adonai (yahweh), eloheinu and adonai (yahweh), and it isn't an actual trinty .

Have you read the Zohar? have you read ABOUT the Zohar? Do you know what the Zohar is? Have you asked and Jewish Kabbahlist about the Zohar?

No you haven't, and neither have the writers of these articles you googled.

It's extremely dishonest to quote an esoteric jewish text from the 1000s you haven't read or read about speaking metaphorically and Things that you don't understand, and claim that teach Things that NO ONE WHO ACTUALLY STUDY THOSE TEXTS CLAIM.
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Racky, save that self-serving malarkey for the plebes. Jesus is God and every major denomination around understands that. And if he isn't God he can't save anybody, because only God is the Savior.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Logicman said:
Racky, save that self-serving malarkey for the plebes. Jesus is God and every major denomination around understands that. And if he isn't God he can't save anybody, because only God is the Savior.
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Read links before you post them ... and don't lie and claim that the Trinity is supported by ancient jewish texts when all you have are obscure quotes from teh Zohar written in 1000 AD as an esoteric metaphorical text.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Logicman said:
Racky, save that self-serving malarkey for the plebes. Jesus is God and every major denomination around understands that. And if he isn't God he can't save anybody, because only God is the Savior.
Click to expand...

Christ is part of the God-head. He is not God the father nor is he the holy spirit but he is one aspect of that company.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

RGacky3 said:
Read links before you post them ... and don't lie and claim that the Trinity is supported by ancient jewish texts when all you have are obscure quotes from teh Zohar written in 1000 AD as an esoteric metaphorical text.
Click to expand...

BULL.

I do read what I post. Sorry it doesn't register with you. And the links I cited do give good support to the Trinity. So you're wrong again.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

ludin said:
Christ is part of the God-head. He is not God the father nor is he the holy spirit but he is one aspect of that company.
Click to expand...

I never claimed otherwise.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Logicman said:
BULL.

I do read what I post. Sorry it doesn't register with you. And the ancient links I cited do give good support to the Trinity.
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And so you knew that the 2 last links were about the Zohar? And you knew what the Zohar was?
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

RGacky3 said:
And so you knew that the 2 last links were about the Zohar? And you knew what the Zohar was?
Click to expand...

That's your spin.

By the way, here's something for you to munch on:

Isaiah 43:10,11 says that “I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior besides Me. Jesus is the Savior (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1, etc., etc.). Jesus must be God the Savior.

Jesus must be Jehovah

http://righterreport.com/2011/09/29/jesus-must-be-jehovah-god/
 
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Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Logicman said:
That's your spin.

By the way, here's something for you to munch on:

Isaiah 43:10,11 says that “I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior besides Me. Jesus is the Savior (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1, etc., etc.). Jesus must be God the Savior.

Jesus must be Jehovah

Jesus Must be Jehovah « The Righter Report
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No it isn't my spin. it's what your links say .... which you obviously haven't read, and which you obviously don't understand. They we're all about the Zohar, something about which obivously you have no idea.

Don't like without reading the links. Otherwise you get called out as ignorant.

(btw about the savior thing, with that logic then the judges are God and the Kings of Israel are God, since they are all called savior in the OT, try again).

No one is going to click on links you don't even read.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

RGacky3 said:
No it isn't my spin. it's what your links say ....
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No, it's your spin.

RGacky3 said:
(btw about the savior thing, with that logic then the judges are God and the Kings of Israel are God, since they are all called savior in the OT, try again).
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The word for Lord in Isaiah 43:10, 11 is "El" and in context is speaking about God as the Savior. It's not speaking about kings or judges, so stop with the nonsense. It's disingenuous and flaky.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Logicman said:
Racky, save that self-serving malarkey for the plebes. Jesus is God and every major denomination around understands that. And if he isn't God he can't save anybody, because only God is the Savior.
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ALTER2EGO -to- LOGICMAN:

The argument--that majority wins--is a poor argument. Jesus Christ himself said the following regarding the notion of majority wins, as noted by the scripture quoted below. Notice the bolded words in verse 13.


"{13} Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and MANY are the ones going in through it; {14} whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13-14)


QUESTION #1 to LOGICMAN: According to Jesus' words at Matthew 7:13, MOST of the people claiming to be Christians are on the road to destruction? TRUE or FALSE?


QUESTION #2 to LOGICMAN: According to Jesus' words at Matthew 7:14, FEW Christians, in comparison, are on the road to life? TRUE or FALSE?


QUESTION #3 to LOGICMAN: Can you present your first four (4) verses of scriptures that indicate the Father (Jehovah), the Son (Jesus Christ), and the holy spirit are three persons that are co-equal and co-eternal?


I will watch for your response to my three questions, particularly your first four (4) verses of scriptures that are responsive to Question #3.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- LOGICMAN:

The argument--that majority wins--is a poor argument. Jesus Christ himself said the following regarding the notion of majority wins, as noted by the scripture quoted below. Notice the bolded words in verse 13.


"{13} Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and MANY are the ones going in through it; {14} whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13-14)


QUESTION #1 to LOGICMAN: According to Jesus' words at Matthew 7:13, MOST of the people claiming to be Christians are on the road to destruction? TRUE or FALSE?
Click to expand...


Depends on your definition of a Christian. If we're talking about born-again, spirit-filled believers then those are the saved ones. The others are on the path to destruction. Also, see my answer to your next question.


Alter2Ego said:
QUESTION #2 to LOGICMAN: According to Jesus' words at Matthew 7:14, FEW Christians, in comparison, are on the road to life? TRUE or FALSE?
Click to expand...

The passage doesn't center on Christians. Matthew 7 is the Sermon on the Mount, and Jesus is undoubtedly addressing one heck of a lot of non-Christians there (Jews, etc.).

Alter2Ego said:
QUESTION #3 to LOGICMAN: Can you present your first four (4) verses of scriptures that indicate the Father (Jehovah), the Son (Jesus Christ), and the holy spirit are three persons that are co-equal and co-eternal?
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I have before. Here's two links:

Trinity In the Scriptures

http://www.layevangelism.com/qreference/chapter10c.htm

And here's a SHORT LIST of scriptures on the Deity of Jesus:

The Deity of Jesus Christ in Scripture « The Righter Report

And then, one more:

http://righterreport.com/2011/09/29/jesus-must-be-jehovah-god/
 
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Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

ludin said:
you evidently didn't read the whole thing because that is just part of what they say. i even quoted it to you and you still ignored it. why are you being dishonest when people show you where you are wrong?
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ALTER2EGO -to- LUDIN:

Of course I did not read everything you presented at Post 54. I do not have the time to read a wall of text in which an opponent jumps from one argument to the next. We are only supposed to be discussing the fact that "El" is not a personal name. You decided to make an issue of various errors found at the source that I quoted, along with your own speculations about how the Divine name is actually pronounced. Those are all points that can be discussed along the way. But not all at once.


ludin said:
el is a label for god. however when referring to the true God they qualify it with something else. The reason for that is that in those days it was blasphemy to reference God directly so they would use a term like all mighty one or something else in order to express about who they were referring to.

it was a sign of respect and reverence as well. again the word el has to be used in context of which it is written. so yes it would refer to a name as well as a title of something else.
i think you need to do a bit more research in the matter.
Click to expand...

Exactly. "El" is merely a label aka a title--and not a personal name, as you are erroneously claiming.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- LUDIN:

Of course I did not read everything you presented at Post 54. I do not have the time to read a wall of text in which an opponent jumps from one argument to the next. We are only supposed to be discussing the fact that "El" is not a personal name. You decided to make an issue of various errors found at the source that I quoted, along with your own speculations about how the Divine name is actually pronounced. Those are all points that can be discussed along the way. But not all at once.




Exactly. "El" is merely a label aka a title--and not a personal name, as you are erroneously claiming.
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You are wrong. el is not just meant as a title. that is just one definition of the word. it can also be the name of a specific being that you are addressing.
it depends upon the context in which the word is written. had you actually read the link I posted instead of ignoring it and claiming that I am wrong you would have known this.

you also seem to ignore culture and the time period. to refer to God as God would be disrespectful at most and considered blasphemy at worst. so when they refer to their God it was always in the form of almighty one etc ... it wasn't a title as they were indexing his name in a different way.

as I said you really need to do a bit more study and research before you start telling people they are incorrect. also I recommend reading things that people type and or post instead of ignoring it and claiming that you are correct when you are not.

that is the weakest argument someone can make and you made it.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Logicman said:
Alter2Ego said:
"{13} Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and MANY are the ones going in through it; {14} whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

QUESTION #2 to LOGICMAN: According to Jesus' words at Matthew 7:14, FEW Christians, in comparison, are on the road to life? TRUE or FALSE?
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The passage doesn't center on Christians. Matthew 7 is the Sermon on the Mount, and Jesus is undoubtedly addressing one heck of a lot of non-Christians there (Jews, etc.).
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ALTER2EGO -to- LOGICMAN:

There were non-Christians in the audience during Jesus' sermon on the mountain, true. But the context to Matthew 7:13-14 makes it clear that Jesus Christ was addressing his followers when he repeated the expression "many" a few verses later in the same Matthew chapter 7. Notice this.


"{21} Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. {22} MANY will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' {23} And yet then I will confess to the: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:21-23)

Notice that at verse 21, Jesus Christ narrowed it down to Christians. Also, notice that at verse 22 he repeated the expression "many"--as in those on the road leading to destruction.


QUESTION #4 to LOGICMAN: At Matthew 7:21, Jesus Christ referred to those who would consider him their Lord. Who are the most likely people to refer to Jesus Christ as "Lord, Lord"? Those who were his Christian followers? Or those of the Jewish faith who rejected him as Messiah?
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- LOGICMAN:

There were non-Christians in the audience during Jesus' sermon on the mountain, true. But the context to Matthew 7:13-14 makes it clear that Jesus Christ was addressing his followers when he repeated the expression "many" a few verses later in the same Matthew chapter 7. Notice this.
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I don't agree. "Many" can be referring to unbelievers, and I believe it is.

Alter2Ego said:
Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.[/COLOR] {22} MANY will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' {23} And yet then I will confess to the: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:21-23)

Notice that at verse 21, Jesus Christ narrowed it down to Christians. Also, notice that at verse 22 he repeated the expression "many"--as in those on the road leading to destruction.
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The Father's "will" is that "everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life" (John 6:40).

Yes, many false Christians will go into the Lake of Fire. I agree with the scriptures on that.

Alter2Ego said:
QUESTION #4 to LOGICMAN: At Matthew 7:21, Jesus Christ referred to those who would consider him their Lord. Who are the most likely people to refer to Jesus Christ as "Lord, Lord"? Those who were his Christian followers? Or those of the Jewish faith who rejected him as Messiah?
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Those who are the wolves in sheep's clothing.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Logicman said:
Alter2Ego said:
There were non-Christians in the audience during Jesus' sermon on the mountain, true. But the context to Matthew 7:13-14 makes it clear that Jesus Christ was addressing his followers when he repeated the expression "many" a few verses later in the same Matthew chapter 7. Notice this.
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I don't agree. "Many" can be referring to unbelievers, and I believe it is.
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ALTER2EGO -to- LOGICMAN:

Unbelievers aka non-Christians would refer to Jesus Christ as "Lord, Lord" at Matthew 7:21? Are you serious?


Logicman said:
Alter2Ego said:
Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. {22} MANY will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' {23} And yet then I will confess to the: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:21-23)

Notice that at verse 21, Jesus Christ narrowed it down to Christians. Also, notice that at verse 22 he repeated the expression "many"--as in those on the road leading to destruction.
Click to expand...

The Father's "will" is that "everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life" (John 6:40).

Yes, many false Christians will go into the Lake of Fire. I agree with the scriptures on that.
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That is true, but we are not discussing the Father's will right now. We are identifying who Jesus Christ was addressing at Matthew 7:13 when he said "many" are on the road leading to destruction. You claim he was directing that comment to every single person in the audience, including Jews and other non-Christians. I directed your attention to what Jesus Christ said a mere seven verses later--that "many" would refer to him as "Lord, Lord" but that he would reject "many" of them.
 
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