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You can't even attribute properly. Go squabble with your peers, you've heard the last from me.
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Forgive Us Our....
- Thread starter ChezC3
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You can't even attribute properly. Go squabble with your peers, you've heard the last from me.
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I can't help you with Greek, but I did look up "debt" and "trespass" for you in the OED. Interesting that "debt" is only a noun or adjective while "trespass," as we all know, can be both a noun and verb.
debt, n.
Forms: ME dete, ME–15 dette, ME–15 dett, det, deytt(e, ME–16 debte, 16– debt.
Etymology: Middle English det, dette, < Old French dete, dette < popular Latin *debita... (Show More)
1. That which is owed or due; anything (as money, goods, or service) which one person is under obligation to pay or render to another:
a. a sum of money or a material thing.
c1380—1845(Show quotations)
b. a thing immaterial.
c1386—1842(Show quotations)
†c. That which one is bound or ought to do; (one's) duty. Sc. Obs.
2.
a. A liability or obligation to pay or render something; the condition of being under such obligation.
c1290—1883 (Show quotations)
b. in debt: under obligation to pay something; owing something, esp. money (see also 2c); in any one's debt: under obligation to pay or render something to him; indebted to him. So out of debt, out of any one's debt; to fall or run into (or in) debt ; out of debt out of danger: c1330—1845
†c. Obligation to do something; duty. in debt: under obligation, in duty bound. of or with debt : as a matter of debt, as is due or right; as in duty bound. Obs. (Cf. 1c.)
c1300—1535
3. fig. Used in Biblical language as the type of an offence requiring expiation, a sin.
trespass, n.
Etymology: Middle English trespas , < Old French trespas... (Show More)
1. A transgression; a breach of law or duty; an offence, sin, wrong; a fault.
c1290—1831(Show quotations)
2. Law. In a wide sense, Any violation or transgression of the law; spec. one not amounting to treason, felony, or misprision of either.
c1290—1895(Show quotations)
3. Law. spec. Any actionable wrong committed against the person or property of another; also short for action of trespass.
ˈtrespass, v.
Etymology: < trespass n.; or < Old French trespasser ... (Show More)
1.
a. intr. To commit a transgression or offence; to transgress, offend; to sin. Also fig.
1303—1805(Show quotations)
b. Const. against (†to, unto, for).
1303—1845(Show quotations)
†2. trans. with the matter of the trespass as object: To do (something wrong); to commit. Obs.
14..—1631(Show quotations)
†3.
a. To transgress, violate (a law, etc.) Obs. [So in Old French]
1484—1613(Show quotations)
†b. To offend against, wrong, violate (a person). Obs.
1427—1556(Show quotations)
4. Law. intr. To commit a trespass (see trespass n. 2); spec. to enter unlawfully on the land of another, or on that which is the property or right of another. Const. on, upon
c1455—1880(Show quotations)
5. intr. fig. with on or upon: To make an improper or uninvited inroad on (a person's time, attention, patience, etc.); to intrude on or upon the rights or domain of; to encroach on, infringe.
1652—a1881(Show quotations)
†6. intr. (in form trepass.) To pass beyond this life; to die. Also trans. in to trepass this life . trepassed, deceased. (The only sense in which this vb. is preserved in modern French) Obs. rare.
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First, thank you.
Next than would you agree it is safe to assume literally, Jesus was equating sin with debt? Otherwise if just following the above highlighted, this doesn't really illuminate anything.
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I'm not convinced that Jesus expected us to forgive sin in others. If the Greek word is best translated into 'debt', then I'd take it literally to mean something owed.
For what it's worth, here's a Greek/English translation...
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν,
kae aphes hêmin ta opheilêmata hêmôn, [Kaiafes imin ta ofilaymata imon]
And forgive us our trespasses/sins
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·
hôs kae hêmeis aphiemen toes opheiletaes hêmôn; [os kaimees afiemen tois ofiletes imon]
as we forgive those who trespass/sin against us
The Lord’s Prayer in Greek (Classical & Modern Versions) | Center for Non Harming Ministries The Lord’s Prayer in Greek (Classical & Modern Versions) | Help for a hurting world
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No, instructing us how to pray is stated literally....but the prayer also reflects what had been taught by Jesus from the Parables (as follows):
Glorify and praise God, meekness and obedience to His will, trust and dependence on God, re-statement of forgiveness and mercy (reflecting the promise made by God). The Lord's Prayer convey all those.
I don't think Jesus is equating being in debt literally into sin....unless the debtor has no intention of paying his debts. If the Kingdom of God is likened to a king....the king wouldn't be handing out money for people to be indebted to if being in debt equals sinning.
There is no doubt whatsoever that forgiving is a major part of Jesus' teaching - even as He was dying, He showed it: Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
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I don't wish to be a part of this discussion at this point; I was simply responding to your "Yeah, I'm familiar with the passage, but I'm working on the literal words right now as they can easily be taken at face value for this particular instance." Because most people don't have access to the OED, but I do, I thought providing the definitions would be helpful.
Meanwhile, if there is such concern over "debt" versus "trespass," I can only imagine the fretting over "...and lead us not into temptation" (a phrase of the "Our Father" I no longer say and have replaced with "and subject us not to the trial").
And then, as a matter of conscience, there's that whole notion of being forgiven in the same measure. Is that really what we want? If I am entirely honest, I hope that I will be forgiven far more than I have been able to forgive.
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Especially liberals.
I don't really care about labels, since I'm a little bit of both.
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I don't wish to be a part of this discussion at this point; I was simply responding to your "Yeah, I'm familiar with the passage, but I'm working on the literal words right now as they can easily be taken at face value for this particular instance." Because most people don't have access to the OED, but I do, I thought providing the definitions would be helpful.
Meanwhile, if there is such concern over "debt" versus "trespass," I can only imagine the fretting over "...and lead us not into temptation" (a phrase of the "Our Father" I no longer say and have replaced with "and subject us not to the trial").
And then, as a matter of conscience, there's that whole notion of being forgiven in the same measure. Is that really what we want? If I am entirely honest, I hope that I will be forgiven far more than I have been able to forgive.
Very good. than thank you again for your contribution.
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If I am to remember correctly with the Temple system wasn't it case of a blood debt needed to cover sins? You had to sacrifice certain things based on the severity of the sin?
Jesus speaking in these terms would fall in line with what a priest of the Temple (not a very popular priest albeit, those priests wanted to feast on the offerings brought to atone for people's sin) might view sin as and the manner in which one must atone? Asking the forgiveness of debt(sin) rather than taking an ox to the temple for slaughter. Which would thereby be diminishing the role of the Temple and the Priest in relation to a person's relationship with God? And speaking in these terms, like a Priest, furthering the evidence of his role as High Priest described in Hebrews?
That would cover the first portion of that statement I would think, however when comparing it to worldly indebtedness, this, this here, if taken literal, would this not equate a sin against God with a debt against man? And that being in debt to man is equal to sinning against God?
Now, if we are suppose to -- through faith -- believe that God will forgive us our debts(sins) than too would it not be a matter that through faith we should be forgiven of our debts to our fellow man? The onus then falling on our fellow man to be Christ-like in his forgiveness? Thereby lifting the burden of debt off the debtors shoulders and placing the burden of forgiveness on the one who the debtor is indebted to?
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Jesus was the sacrifice. He died for us. Thus He is also known as The Lamb.
The sacrifice of Jesus had changed all that. There is no need to offer sacrifices or burnt offerings, at least for us gentiles. I'm not sure about the Jews - but from what I was told, they're not obligated to offer sacrifices (killing an animal). But since Jews don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, maybe they still do the old practices....
I guess if one goes into debt to pursue worldly pleasures - it may be likened to idolizing material things. Idolatry. That would be the sin.
Being in debt cannot be equated to sin since we are allowed to lend money to those in need. Lending money makes others indebted.
So, if we're allowed to lend money - which means someone will become indebted to us - how can that be equated to sinning?
Luke 6:34-38
34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Matthew 5:42
Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
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Yeah, I heard that about him, but he wasn't the sacrifice when he was doing the instructing.
I was speaking of what was the way then
you're seeing the conundrum...
and this is what we would call giving, not lending.
but if you borrow expect nothing in return. That is giving, not borrowing.
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He knew He was.
Which "then?"
If you're referring to the OT, then that's one of the changes that was made when the Messiah gave Himself as the ultimate sacrifice. That, too, had been prophesied in the OT - the Messiah, the Saviour.
I don't see the condrum in that explanation? It's based on logic.
Premise: Is being in debt a sin in the eyes of God?
Fact: God told us to lend money to those who want to borrow.
Fact: God equated lending money to those in need as an act of compassion/mercy/helping the needy
Fact: Lending money results in the borrower becoming indebted to us. If we do not lend him money, there wouldn't be any debt at all.
Conclusion: Therefore, being in debt is not a sin in the eyes of God.
We can choose to give, too. If someone cannot pay because he has no means to pay you back - he is still struggling - then, we shouldn't pressure him to pay.
But if you borrow from Visa or MasterCard and lived way above your means in your pursuit of material things - like that hd big screen tv, or your computer, or your trip to the Bahamas, or to get the latest Ipad, the most expensive car, build a large house, have a swimming pool, eat steak and lobsters everyday with a bottle of wine, have designer clothings, etc..,....and you don't want to pay Visa, that's STEALING!
You mean, if you lend. Borrowing means you ask someone to lend you something.
Not exactly. You lend in good faith. You shouldn't ask for collateral - like the person's son to become your servant, or his house.
If the borrower pays you back - you can accept the payment, or not. That's up to you.
As explained above.
The culture of Jesus' time, those who were in debt and couldn't or wouldn't pay were thrown in the dungeons. His analogy using the king that forgave the debt of his servant did not in any way criticized the dungeon existed in the first place. He didn't say having the dungeon is wrong. That was their cultural law in those days. We have ours today.
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The Greek word, Opheiletes - the masculine noun - one who is under obligation, debtor; one who is guilty, offender, sinner.
The neuter noun that comes from the same root means wrong, sin or guilt.
The verb from the same root means, owe; ought must be bound or obligated; sin against, to wrong somebody.
The least important of the meaning is financial debt. The main thing is sin, or forgiveness of sin.
The neuter noun that comes from the same root means wrong, sin or guilt.
The verb from the same root means, owe; ought must be bound or obligated; sin against, to wrong somebody.
The least important of the meaning is financial debt. The main thing is sin, or forgiveness of sin.