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Book of Mormon Disappointment

vasuderatorrent

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I just finished the Book of Mormon. There is a lot of stuff that I missed. I learned nothing about planet Kolob, Alohem's spirit children, how to become a god or how to get your own planet.

Are people making all that stuff up? or is it one of those other books?

Somebody else said said:
i must admit, i dont know about those things either. Haha. (planet kolob? Haha. Never heard of it. XD )

But i know alohems spirit children and the one you said about how to become god. : )

First, you should know who alohim is, (idk his spelling. Haha) he's heavenly father. : ) (we believe in god, the eternal father(thats him.) and in his son, jesus christ, and in the holy ghost.) we are children of god. (elohim) thats us. : ) ofcourse, that includes jesus. : ) jesus christ is our brother. And before this earth life, we lived in pre mortal life. : ) there, heavenly father told us his plan. He needs somebody to be the saviour. Satan volunteered, but he doesnt want to follow heavenly father's plan. So, heavenlyfather choses jesus christ. Satan rebelled. 1/3 of heavenly fathers children was in satans side. 2/3 followed jesus. The 1/3 was cast out and didnt have the chance to have a body like ours. (thats heavenlyfathers plan. He will send us here in earth, so that we could have body, like him. Heavenly father has body like ours. )

So, the 1/3 didnt follow the plan, they got cast out and didnt have the chance to have a body. We are among those 2/3 who followed jesus christ, thats why we are here in earth, having body. When we die, our spirit will again reunite with out body (our best form) and we will not experience physical death again. but we can experience spiritual death, if we failed to be good in this earth life. ) if we became good, did all we can to follow gods plan for us, we will become like our father in heaven. We can become gods and goddess. : )

Heavenly father did that plan for us to be like him. He sent his children in earth (us, here) to be able to prove ourselves that we deserve to be like him, a god. With perfect body.(flesh and bones) and to experience things that were experiencing now. : ) he also wants us to learn while we are here. : ) so, earth life is like our battle field or exam field. To prove that we deserve to live with him and be gods and goddess.

Im pretty sure, all father wants their children to improve. : )

I didn't read any of that stuff about Satan volunteering to be the Saviour of the world or any of that stuff about Satan's angels or any of that mess. Perhaps I read it too fast and missed a lot of mess.
 


If You Could Hie to Kolob
 
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I just finished the Book of Mormon. There is a lot of stuff that I missed. I learned nothing about planet Kolob, Alohem's spirit children, how to become a god or how to get your own planet.

Are people making all that stuff up? or is it one of those other books?



I didn't read any of that stuff about Satan volunteering to be the Saviour of the world or any of that stuff about Satan's angels or any of that mess. Perhaps I read it too fast and missed a lot of mess.

Most of the stuff that you are talking about isn't in the Book of Mormon....its part of the teachings that Mormons learn when they go through their temple ceremonies.
 
I just finished the Book of Mormon. There is a lot of stuff that I missed. I learned nothing about planet Kolob, Alohem's spirit children, how to become a god or how to get your own planet.

Are people making all that stuff up? or is it one of those other books?



I didn't read any of that stuff about Satan volunteering to be the Saviour of the world or any of that stuff about Satan's angels or any of that mess. Perhaps I read it too fast and missed a lot of mess.

I haven't read the book, but I tend to agree with you. When I was cleaning out my car one day some mormon missionaries came along and wanted to talk to me. I made sure they knew I was an atheist and had no intention of ever converting, but they still wanted to talk to me anyway. So as I cleaned my car and took care of some other stuff I talked to them for about 2 hours about mormonism.

It's actually not as crazy a religion as people make it out to be. There are a lot of concepts that would make it far more likely that if I return to christianity I would choose mormonism and not the standard BS. Beliefs like universalism and lack of hell. Honestly I think mormonism is far more reasonable than regular christianity.
 
I haven't read the book, but I tend to agree with you. When I was cleaning out my car one day some mormon missionaries came along and wanted to talk to me. I made sure they knew I was an atheist and had no intention of ever converting, but they still wanted to talk to me anyway. So as I cleaned my car and took care of some other stuff I talked to them for about 2 hours about mormonism.

It's actually not as crazy a religion as people make it out to be. There are a lot of concepts that would make it far more likely that if I return to christianity I would choose mormonism and not the standard BS. Beliefs like universalism and lack of hell. Honestly I think mormonism is far more reasonable than regular christianity.
time for tar and feathers....;)
 
It's actually not as crazy a religion as people make it out to be. There are a lot of concepts that would make it far more likely that if I return to christianity I would choose mormonism and not the standard BS. Beliefs like universalism and lack of hell. Honestly I think mormonism is far more reasonable than regular christianity.

I've been Asatru for fifteen years, but I've also been saying for years that if I were Christian, I'd be Mormon.
 
I haven't read the book, but I tend to agree with you. When I was cleaning out my car one day some mormon missionaries came along and wanted to talk to me. I made sure they knew I was an atheist and had no intention of ever converting, but they still wanted to talk to me anyway. So as I cleaned my car and took care of some other stuff I talked to them for about 2 hours about mormonism.

It's actually not as crazy a religion as people make it out to be. There are a lot of concepts that would make it far more likely that if I return to christianity I would choose mormonism and not the standard BS. Beliefs like universalism and lack of hell. Honestly I think mormonism is far more reasonable than regular christianity.

What would you expect from an American religion? Of course it's better.

(I also sincerely agree)
 
Kolob comes from one chapter in the Book of Abraham, and in a facsimile that was with the text.

1 And I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees;
2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;
3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3?lang=eng

facsimile 2:
03990_000_fac-2.jpg

Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. The measurement according to celestial time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth, which is called by the Egyptians Jah-oh-eh.


Kolob sounds weird to our American ears but Joseph translated this from Egyptian papyri. Below are quotes from a LDS forum:

From Michael D. Rhodes, we read

Joseph Smith says that this is "Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." To the ancient Egyptians, this was symbolic of God, endowed with the primeval creative force, seated at the center of the universe. The name Kolob is right at home in this context. The word most likely derives from the common Semitic root *QLB, which has the basic meaning of "heart, center, middle." In fact the Arabic form of this word, qalb, forms part of the Arabic names of several of the brightest stars in the sky including Antares, Regulus, and Canopus.

It is more than of passing interest that John Tvedtnes, Brian Hauglid, and John Gee in their magnificent text "Traditions About the Early Life of Abraham," FARMS, 2001: Appendix B show that the Sufi philosophers compared the heart (Arabic qalb) with the throne of God, while Abr 3:9 is said to be set nigh unto the throne of God......


I speak Arabic.
Kokob (In some forms, Kokobim) is the Arabic word for planet (plural). This is easily confirmed on any online translator.

Kolob is believed by some to be the center of the Universe. Kolob has the Arabic root letters KLB, and roughly pronounced Kolob (With a Kaf, a hard K).
In Arabic, the KLB is the heart and the source of life in the body.

Perhaps Kolob is the heart, and the source of life in the Universe.

The Arabic perspective
-Max


Here is a link to the Pearl of Great Price where you can read the entire Book of Abraham as well as the Book of Moses:
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp?lang=eng

The Plan of Salvation, our spirits the literal offspring of God, pre-mortal world, etc: Plan of Salvation
 
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I didnt' read any of this in the Book of Mormon. Was I reading it too fast or is this crap all made up?

 
I didnt' read any of this in the Book of Mormon. Was I reading it too fast or is this crap all made up?



I cant see the link on my computer.

But.... Mormonism draws not only from the Book of Mormon, but also from the The Pearl of Great Price (Smith's musings and sermons) and Doctrine and Covenants (collection of the minutes of theology and policy discussions of senior Mormons).

Evidently, the more uhmm..... "unusual" Mormon teachings come from The Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants. There have been rumors that these two books are going to be "de listed" as officially sacred, but the Mormon church has not made that change official yet. Rather, they may have just been unofficially "de-emphasized".
 
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I didnt' read any of this in the Book of Mormon. Was I reading it too fast or is this crap all made up?



That animation is a segment from the movie The God Makers. And, like the rest of the movie of which it is a part, it is composed mostly of crap that was simply made up ex nihilo. There are a few bits here and there that someone who is familiar with the Mormon religion would recognize as badly-distorted versions of some of our beliefs, but most of the content of this clip is entirely false without even that much connection to any truth.

There is nothing true or useful to be learned from this animation, of the larger film of which it is a part, or of the books on which it is based, other than as a glimpse into the sort of tortured mind that it takes to come up with such slander.
 
I cant see the link on my computer.

But.... Mormonism draws not only from the Book of Mormon, but also from the The Pearl of Great Price (Smith's musings and sermons) and Doctrine and Covenants (collection of the minutes of theology and policy discussions of senior Mormons).

Evidently, the more uhmm..... "unusual" Mormon teachings come from The Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants. There have been rumors that these two books are going to be "de listed" as officially sacred, but the Mormon church has not made that change official yet. Rather, they may have just been unofficially "de-emphasized".

There has never been talk of getting rid of the D&C and Pearl of Great Price, and it has not been de-emphasized at all. It is sad how pathetic anti-Mormons are. The D&C is primarily modern revelation to LDS prophets from the Lord, it is not "policy discussions by senior Mormons". The Pearl of Great Price contains the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses and to me there is nothing strange about the doctrines in them, like there is nothing strange about the Book of Mormon. It sheds a great deal of light and clarity on the Bible.

The Book of Abraham to a modern reader is sort of strange just because it is a portrait to an ancient world that most of us have no clue about. Take for instance the mention of Kolob being the star nearest to the residence of God:

Scholar Michael Rhodes:
"Kolob" is said to be a great governing star near to where God is (Abraham 3:3,16) and in the commentary for Figure 1 in Facsimile 2, Joseph Smith said it refers to "Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." This interpretation of Figure 1 in the facsimile makes sense. Here is part of what Brother Rhodes has to say on this:

The god is sitting at the center of the hypocephalus, which, as was mentioned above, represents the world.

This seated figure represents god as the creator, either Amon-Re or Khnum. When thus depicted with four heads, this god united within himself the attributes of the gods Re (the sun), Shu (light), Geb (the earth), and Osiris (god of the next world and the resurrection), and represented the primeval creative force.

Joseph Smith says that this is "Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." This agrees well with the Egyptian symbolism of god endowed with the primeval creative force seated at the center of the universe. The name Kolob is right at home in this context. The word most likely derives from the common Semitic root QLB, which has the basic meaning of "heart, center, middle" (Arabic [see image below] - qalb "heart, center"; Hebrew [see image below] "middle, midst", [see image below] "to draw near"; Egyptian m-qab "in the midst of"). In fact, qalb forms part of the Arabic names of several of the brightest stars in the sky, including Antares, Regulus, and Canopus."
 
But.... Mormonism draws not only from the Book of Mormon, but also from the The Pearl of Great Price (Smith's musings and sermons) and Doctrine and Covenants (collection of the minutes of theology and policy discussions of senior Mormons).

Those really are not accurate descriptions of the content of either of these volumes.


Evidently, the more uhmm..... "unusual" Mormon teachings come from The Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants. There have been rumors that these two books are going to be "de listed" as officially sacred, but the Mormon church has not made that change official yet. Rather, they may have just been unofficially "de-emphasized".

“The more uhmm.....‘unusual’ Mormon teachings” really don't come from anywhere other than the imaginations of those who create such crap as The God Makers. If you study all of our scriptures, all of our other official publications, you simply will not find most of what is described in the cartoon clip under discussion. It's just not there. Most of us do not believe most of what that clip claims we believe, and have never even heard of some of these alleged beliefs, other than from sources such as that clip and other similarly bizarre anti-Mormon media and publications.

Anyway, there is, as far as I know, no plans on the part of the church to “de-emphasize” or otherwise diminish the contents of these two sacred volumes of scripture. There is no reason why we would. Your posting is the very first I've seen of any claim to that effect.
 
“The more uhmm.....‘unusual’ Mormon teachings” really don't come from anywhere other than the imaginations of those who create such crap as The God Makers.
By unusual, I would mean these teachings here (in addition to the planet Kolob teaching). My source cited Mormon material chapter and verse.

-Heaven is divided into several levels. Men have multiple wives in the highest one
- Jehovah is one with Jesus, but not God the father
-Jesus and Satan are brothers
-Garden of Eden was in Missouri
-God has a human body
-Angels are resurrected beings
-Polygamy is permissable for Christians, perhaps even commanded
-Baptism of the dead

Pearl of Great Price

There are strong indications that the source material of the Book of Abraham is an Egyptian funerary text. That aside, I would consider these teachings to be unusual:
- Blacks are inherently cursed by God.
-man pre existed
-repeated plural references to God

Here is part of what Brother Rhodes has to say on this:

The god is sitting at the center of the hypocephalus, which, as was mentioned above, represents the world.

This seated figure represents god as the creator, either Amon-Re or Khnum. When thus depicted with four heads, this god united within himself the attributes of the gods Re (the sun), Shu (light), Geb (the earth), and Osiris (god of the next world and the resurrection), and represented the primeval creative force.

Joseph Smith says that this is... .
Has any non Mormon confirmed the authenticity of the Book of Abraham?

Anyway, there is, as far as I know, no plans on the part of the church to “de-emphasize” or otherwise diminish the contents of these two sacred volumes of scripture. There is no reason why we would. Your posting is the very first I've seen of any claim to that effect.
There has never been talk of getting rid of the D&C and Pearl of Great Price, and it has not been de-emphasized at all. It is sad how pathetic anti-Mormons are. The D&C is primarily modern revelation to LDS prophets from the Lord, it is not "policy discussions by senior Mormons". The Pearl of Great Price contains the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses and to me there is nothing strange about the doctrines in them, like there is nothing strange about the Book of Mormon. It sheds a great deal of light and clarity on the Bible.


That is an overstatement on my part. I should have said its been "speculated".

This is based on a commentary that I heard after Bishop Osborne was interviewed on 60 minutes. The commentator noted that Mormonism was moving closer to maisntgreat Christianity and that the interview given by Osborne indicated that this pattern would continue. He also noted that the D&C had undergone several revisions

The commentator then speculated that D&C and Pearl would be de listed as sacred and accorded the same status of that of saint's writings and early church fathers in catholicism and eastern orthodoxy. Protesants have an equivelant with the writings of protestant reformerss. These groups consider these types of writing to be authorative and inspiring, but not sacred scripture.

I accept all Mormon scripture that is taken from the Bible. To my knowledge, The Pearl of Great Price and D&C both contain portions that are derived from the Bible.
 
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I just finished the Book of Mormon. There is a lot of stuff that I missed. I learned nothing about planet Kolob, Alohem's spirit children, how to become a god or how to get your own planet.

Are people making all that stuff up? or is it one of those other books?



I didn't read any of that stuff about Satan volunteering to be the Saviour of the world or any of that stuff about Satan's angels or any of that mess. Perhaps I read it too fast and missed a lot of mess.

My brother converted to Mormonism in his teens and we have talked a lot about it. It isn't weird like so many make it out. Some of the things are a little out there but so is Jesus resurrecting from the dead and many aspects of the Bible.
 
By unusual, I would mean these teachings here (in addition to the planet Kolob teaching). My source cited Mormon material chapter and verse.

-Heaven is divided into several levels. Men have multiple wives in the highest one
- Jehovah is one with Jesus, but not God the father
-Jesus and Satan are brothers
-Garden of Eden was in Missouri
-God has a human body
-Angels are resurrected beings
-Polygamy is permissable for Christians, perhaps even commanded
-Baptism of the dead

Pearl of Great Price

There are strong indications that the source material of the Book of Abraham is an Egyptian funerary text. That aside, I would consider these teachings to be unusual:
- Blacks are inherently cursed by God.
-man pre existed
-repeated plural references to God


Has any non Mormon confirmed the authenticity of the Book of Abraham?

I don't have it in me, right now, to address each alleged “belief” one by one. I will say that some of them are entirely false, some of them are badly distorted versions of recognizable Mormon beliefs, some of them are recognizable distortions of things that have been, in the past, believed by individual Mormons but never officially taught by the church, and a few are more or less correct.

Some of these “unusual beliefs” can be found backed up by the Bible.


As for the authenticity of the Book of Abraham, if it is a hoax, then I'd have to admit that there is a convenient lack of evidence by which to authenticate or falsify it.

At some point in the early history of the church, Joseph Smith availed himself of the opportunity to purchase a collection of ancient Egyptian artifacts. I'm not going to go looking for the sources right now, but I know that this purchase and the contents of this collection were well-documented and verified, to have included a number of mummies, an assortment of scraps of papyrus in varying conditions, and two, exceptionally well-preserved papyrus scrolls. Joseph Smith stated that one of these scrolls was a record of Joseph the son of Jacob/Israel (famous for the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat), and that the other was a record kept by Abraham. It is from the latter that Joseph Smith claimed to have translated the Book of Abraham.

After Joseph Smith's death, the collection was sold, and was last believed to have been in a museum in Chicago, which was destroyed in the Great Fire of 1871.

Much, much more recently, a piece of cardboard came to light, with some scraps of papyrus glued to it, and an assortment of notes and doodles. I'm aware of a claim that a handwriting expert has verified that these notes and doodles were written by Joseph Smith, and that Egytptologists have identified the papyrus fragments as being part of a funerary text.

This item has been offered as evidence against the Book of Abraham, but there are some problems with this use of it:

  • Assuming that we can take this item at face value, it clearly was in the possession of Joseph Smith at one time, and it is now in a condition similar to that in which it was when he possessed it.
  • Joseph Smith is known to have been in possession of two very-well-preserved scrolls, one of which he claimed as the source for the Book of Abraham.
  • This item, very clearly is not a well-preserved scroll, and was not when Joseph Smith possessed it.

These scraps of parchment glued to cardboard are very clearly not the source for the Book of Abraham, and are not useful for authenticating nor falsifying it. At most, it suggests a possibility that if it was part of that collection, and it was not destroyed in the 1871 fire, that perhaps there's a chance that other items in that collection also survived, and may yet come to light. Should two well-preserved papyrus scrolls ever be found, and should it be proven that they are the same that Joseph Smith was known to have possessed, then I have no doubt that on examination, they will prove to be exactly what he said they were, and that the Book of Abraham will prove to be a valid translation of part of one of them.





That is an overstatement on my part. I should have said its been "speculated".

This is based on a commentary that I heard after Bishop Osborne was interviewed on 60 minutes. The commentator noted that Mormonism was moving closer to maisntgreat [sic] Christianity and that the interview given by Osborne indicated that this pattern would continue. He also noted that the D&C had undergone several revisions

The commentator then speculated that D&C and Pearl would be de listed as sacred and accorded the same status of that of saint's writings and early church fathers in catholicism [sic] and eastern orthodoxy. Protesants [sic] have an equivelant [sic] with the writings of protestant reformerss [sic]. These groups consider these types of writing to be authorative [sic] and inspiring, but not sacred scripture.

I accept all Mormon scripture that is taken from the Bible. To my knowledge, The Pearl of Great Price and D&C both contain portions that are derived from the Bible.

I do not know who this Bishop Osborne is of whom you speak, or by what authority he claims to make such statements.

No, the D&C has not undergone several revisions, and no, neither it nor the Pearl of Great Price are at all likely to be “de listed as sacred”.

During Joseph Smith's time, and for a short time afterward, new numbered sections were added in accordance with revelations received by him or his immediate successors. Two “Official Declarations” were added long after that, one in (I think) 1901, and one in 1978. Other than that, no significant change in the content.

There was a substantial effort, in the 1980s, to update our scriptures. Part of the impetus for this was when we gained access to some of Joseph Smith's original manuscripts, which were in the possession and control of the Community of Christ*; giving is the opportunity to compare and correct the texts we had with this source material. A great deal of typographical, spelling,and grammar correction occurred, chapter headings were revised, and a great body of cross-referenced footnotes added. None of this changed the meaning of any of the content.

None of what you are saying about the church “moving closer to maisntgreat [sic] Christianity” rings at all true to me, as a practicing member of this church. It does remind of some things I had long ago heard about the CoC, but I haven't followed them closely enough to judge whether there's any truth to it regarding them. I don't think they've ever tried to identify as “Mormon”, and I've long had a sense that they desired to distance themselves as much as they reasonably could from us; and that the change of name form “The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” to “The Community of Christ” was largely driven by that desire.



* The Community of Christ (SOC), formerly called The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS), is one of the various offshoots of Mormonism. They came out of a conflict that arose after Joseph Smith was killed. There were some who believed that leadership of the church was supposed to pass from father to son. Joseph Smith III was about three years old at the time, so this group, which included much of Joseph Smith's immediate family, laid low until Joseph III was old enough to lead them, and then formed this organization which remained in Missouri, while the “Brighamites” were driven out of the country, and eventually left to settle in Utah. Of course, they kept possession of most of Joseph Smith's belongings, including these essential manuscripts.
 
My brother converted to Mormonism in his teens and we have talked a lot about it. It isn't weird like so many make it out. Some of the things are a little out there but so is Jesus resurrecting from the dead and many aspects of the Bible.

There's probably a good point here.

Just about any religion requires us to accept and believe things that to an atheist, would seem irrational. As far as Christianity takes us from what an atheist could easily believe, Mormonism is not nearly that far off from other forms of Christianity.
 
There are a lot of concepts that would make it far more likely that if I return to christianity I would choose mormonism and not the standard BS.

Figures...
 
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