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The pope hits the nail on the head

RGacky3

RGacky3

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"How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points?"
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"As long as the problems of the poor are not radically resolved by rejecting the absolute autonomy of markets and financial speculation and by attacking the structural causes of inequality, no solution will be found for the world's problems or, for that matter, to any problems,"
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"today we also have to say 'thou shalt not' to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills".
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“In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting. To sustain a lifestyle which excludes others, or to sustain enthusiasm for that selfish ideal, a globalization of indifference has developed. Almost without being aware of it, we end up being incapable of feeling compassion at the outcry of the poor, weeping for other people’s pain, and feeling a need to help them, as though all this were someone else’s responsibility and not our own. The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase; and in the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us.”
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I think it's great that the Pope is starting to emphasise the social justice part of the gospel.
 
RGacky3 said:
I think it's great that the Pope is starting to emphasise the social justice part of the gospel.
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Extreme capitalism is not doing any good. But neither does all leveling communism. Also my answer is "No: Religion is not a development that could cover the gap between the two."
 
DDD said:
Extreme capitalism is not doing any good. But neither does all leveling communism. Also my answer is "No: Religion is not a development that could cover the gap between the two."
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Those are not the only two options.
 
RGacky3 said:
I think it's great that the Pope is starting to emphasise the social justice part of the gospel.
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Problem is that people will then say silly things like this: "How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points?"
That misses the point and pretends that you can solve problems without understanding them.
 
DDD said:
Extreme capitalism is not doing any good. But neither does all leveling communism. Also my answer is "No: Religion is not a development that could cover the gap between the two."
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We do not live in a system of "extreme capitalism", but in a highly regulated society where the government redistributes a huge share of income.
 
RGacky3 said:
I think it's great that the Pope is starting to emphasise the social justice part of the gospel.
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Perhaps it's better to tackle the roots?

I want to see the importance of family much more emphasized - after all, everything starts right there. That's where the focus should be. That's where we learn our values, and it pretty much covers every ills of society.
 
RGacky3 said:
I think it's great that the Pope is starting to emphasise the social justice part of the gospel.
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Actually, the Gospels are not concerned with social justice at all. They are however concerned with how individuals are expected to behave. Please provide documentation explaining how the Pope's comments, ignorant though they are, have inspired you to give your own wealth and substance to the poor.

Please have this posted by the end of business today.
 
joG said:
Problem is that people will then say silly things like this: "How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points?"
That misses the point and pretends that you can solve problems without understanding them.
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It doesn't miss the point, it MAKES a point, he understands them, but pointing out the result says something about the system and it's effects.
 
tosca1 said:
Perhaps it's better to tackle the roots?

I want to see the importance of family much more emphasized - after all, everything starts right there. That's where the focus should be. That's where we learn our values, and it pretty much covers every ills of society.
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The 2 are not seperate, the #1 thing that destroys families is financial issues, when 2 parents have to work to put food on the table and they barely have time for their kids, its hard to have a good family life, when some fathers loose their job and can't raise kids and thus run away, they are doing the wrong thing, but that doesn't mean teh system hasn't created a situation that can destroy family life.

Poverty and inequality is systemic, and those things are detrimental to the family.

I'd also say the ideology of capitalism which commodifies humans has affected relationships partially leading to higher divorce rates.
 
Oftencold said:
Actually, the Gospels are not concerned with social justice at all. They are however concerned with how individuals are expected to behave. Please provide documentation explaining how the Pope's comments, ignorant though they are, have inspired you to give your own wealth and substance to the poor.

Please have this posted by the end of business today.
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The Gospel ... i.e. the Good news, which includes all of scripture, and the gospels are full of concern for social justice .... hell read Jesus's mission statement.

It inspires me to use my time and money to try and make the society I live in a more equitable society that focuses on justice and is inclusive .... God doesn't make calls for philanthropy, he makes calls for justice (misphat in hebrew).
 
RGacky3 said:
It doesn't miss the point, it MAKES a point, he understands them, but pointing out the result says something about the system and it's effects.
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Where you are certainly right is that making a point is sometimes easier, when there is a dead child to demonstrate it. But it is very important to understand the system, which causes the results come from and how you can manipulate the system to change the causes. This is usually not only missed by the point made with the dead child. Mostly the point points in a wrong direction. One example of this in this context would be, what activists call speculation in foods. In that case the point is not the one activists would make, if they both wanted to correct the problems and understood the system.
 
In order to redistribute one must first take, to do that taking one must have the power to do so. The gospels make no mention of the mechanism for this, thus it was taken upon (the men of) the church to carry out this task. Some of the most Catholic countries of the world are Brazil and Mexico, yet I doubt that was what the pope would wish to show us as examples of social justice.

The Vatican Billions - Two Thousand Years of Wealth Accumulation from Caesar to the Space Age
 
Oftencold said:
Actually, the Gospels are not concerned with social justice at all. They are however concerned with how individuals are expected to behave. Please provide documentation explaining how the Pope's comments, ignorant though they are, have inspired you to give your own wealth and substance to the poor.

Please have this posted by the end of business today.
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This reply, if ever received from the OP, should be good. I suspect that it will be "by supporting a government to do so", in other words, I pay taxes (maybe), I believe in charity (maybe even give a little) and I vote for good generous folks to do that for us all. ;)
 
joG said:
Where you are certainly right is that making a point is sometimes easier, when there is a dead child to demonstrate it. But it is very important to understand the system, which causes the results come from and how you can manipulate the system to change the causes. This is usually not only missed by the point made with the dead child. Mostly the point points in a wrong direction. One example of this in this context would be, what activists call speculation in foods. In that case the point is not the one activists would make, if they both wanted to correct the problems and understood the system.
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Yeah .... I agree, we have to udnerstand the system to change it .... but first we have to see there is a problem with the system.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
In order to redistribute one must first take, to do that taking one must have the power to do so. The gospels make no mention of the mechanism for this, thus it was taken upon (the men of) the church to carry out this task. Some of the most Catholic countries of the world are Brazil and Mexico, yet I doubt that was what the pope would wish to show us as examples of social justice.

The Vatican Billions - Two Thousand Years of Wealth Accumulation from Caesar to the Space Age
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Youre right (although recently Brazil has done a lot to try and further social justice), the gospels don't make specific mention of mechanism, but the OT gives us historical examples, as does the early church.

THe more important thing is our attitude however, and the principels that guide us, which will guide how we approach mechanisms and institutions that effect social justice.
 
RGacky3 said:
Youre right (although recently Brazil has done a lot to try and further social justice), the gospels don't make specific mention of mechanism, but the OT gives us historical examples, as does the early church.

THe more important thing is our attitude however, and the principels that guide us, which will guide how we approach mechanisms and institutions that effect social justice.
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Indeed Brazil has made "progress" but is living on $1.30/day what you wish for as a target?

Brazil Struggles with Economic Inequality | The Rio Times | Brazil News
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Indeed Brazil has made "progress" but is living on $1.30/day what you wish for as a target?

Brazil Struggles with Economic Inequality | The Rio Times | Brazil News
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Absolutely not, but any policy that decreases poverty, decreases economic inequality, works to decrease economic exclusion and give poor people more autonomy over their lives and dignity is good.

We'll never achieve perfection before God brings his kingdom. But our call is still to seek justice.
 
RGacky3 said:
Yeah .... I agree, we have to udnerstand the system to change it .... but first we have to see there is a problem with the system.
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I think most will agree that there are certain problems we still have to fix. It will be more difficult to agree on what measures to take.
 
RGacky3 said:
Absolutely not, but any policy that decreases poverty, decreases economic inequality, works to decrease economic exclusion and give poor people more autonomy over their lives and dignity is good.

We'll never achieve perfection before God brings his kingdom. But our call is still to seek justice.
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If you define dignity as being 100% dependent on the work of others to survive then I say we should come up with another plan.
 
joG said:
I think most will agree that there are certain problems we still have to fix. It will be more difficult to agree on what measures to take.
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For someone that takes the biblical message seriously it would be focused on social justice.
 
careful with the title of this thread ... Catholics are very sensitive about hammers and nails ...
 
RGacky3 said:
Yeah .... I agree, we have to udnerstand the system to change it .... but first we have to see there is a problem with the system.
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Taking from those that produce the most and giving that to those that produce the least does not increase production but it does produce more income equality. You seem to think that the better economic plan is to increase income equality but at the expense of production. Comparing the per capita GDP of Vatican City and the USA, we see that the USA produces twice as much per person yet has greater income inequality - "fairness", it would appear, comes at a steep price.
 
RGacky3 said:
For someone that takes the biblical message seriously it would be focused on social justice.
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Even so. How do you want to compare a solution with higher Gini coefficient (higher inequality ie lower social justice) but higher buying power per capita among the poorest with a solution of lower Gini and lower buying power for the lowest quantile? This is in fact, what I found, when I compared Germany with the US a couple of years ago.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
If you define dignity as being 100% dependent on the work of others to survive then I say we should come up with another plan.
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I don't think anyone argues for that ... having a saftey net and then ways to get back on your feet is that.

But yes ... I too am against the for profit financial system (100% dependant on the work of others), as well the capitalist wage labor system.
 
joG said:
Even so. How do you want to compare a solution with higher Gini coefficient (higher inequality ie lower social justice) but higher buying power per capita among the poorest with a solution of lower Gini and lower buying power for the lowest quantile? This is in fact, what I found, when I compared Germany with the US a couple of years ago.
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You can't just measure social justice on one single thing, for example, access to healthcare for the poor is a big one, economic security, workplace democracy, and so on are all relevant.
 
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