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Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

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tosca1

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Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Praying to Mary and to the saints was brought up a while back in one of the topics. It's buried in one of the threads and I can't remember where or who posted it, therefore I'm addressing that here.

When pointed out that only Jesus Christ can intercede for us....

It was posted that they do not worship Mary and the Saints. That praying to Mary and to the Saints is similar to asking your priest or preacher - or any members of your congregation to pray to God and intercede for you or to anyone.

Reading Deuteronomy 5: 7-10, how can I believe the reasoning that was given above? We're dealing with THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT OF ALL - and that is according to Jesus, when asked which commandment of all was the greatest. I feel compelled to speak out about this.

Contrary to the reasoning being given, praying to Mary and the Saints is not similar at all to asking our priests or congregation to pray for us.

Let's look at the verses again.


Deuteronomy 5:6-21

6 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Click to expand...


First of all, we do not make graven images of our priests or members of the congregation.

Second, we do not bow and give praises, we do not beseech our priests or members of the congregation to pray for us.
As Christians, they know the importance about praying for others! They don't have to be asked FERVENTLY to give a hand (in the form of prayers).

Read that First Commandment carefully, I urge you.


Third, Praying for others is showing love. It is an act of love. It is THE SECOND MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT.


Fourth, praying is not an act of intercession - ONLY CHRIST has the title of Intercessor. When we pray, it is simply following the "tip" that was given by Jesus that prayers done by more people are heard.

King James Bible
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.



Fifth, we do not ask the dead to pray for us. If we should, why not pray to Abraham, Isaiah, or Elijah?
Abraham was able to successfully NEGOTIATE with God when he tried to save Sodom and Gomorrah, therefore if we should ask anyone among the dead to pray for us....Abraham would be a good choice.


Note: please move this to Religion Section. Thanks.
 
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Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Furthermore, should we name churches after anyone other than God or Christ?

I grew up in a church that's named Immaculate Conception - which is not so bad if we're referring to the One in the womb - however, on the altar was this giant statue of Mary. We bowed before her. We sang psalms and hymns to her. We gave praises....and even had novenas for her!

However you may want to call it - it is worship! You may not realize it simply because you've been doing it for so long....it is worshipping!

Read the first Commandment, I urge you.
 
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Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:
Furthermore, should we name churches after anyone other than God or Christ?

I grew up in a church that's named Immaculate Conception - which is not so bad if we're referring to the One in the womb - however, on the altar was this giant statue of Mary. We bowed before her. We sang psalms and hymns to her. We gave praises....and even had novenas for her!

However you may want to call it - it is worship! You may not realize it simply because you've been doing it for so long....it is worshipping!

Read the first Commandment, I urge you.
Click to expand...

I often wondered that myself. Seems to be mainly a Catholic thing, or no? A lot of Catholics I know do pray to her and praise her.

So it seems the way some people and churches excessively praise her would border on worship which does contradict the commandment.
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Think of it this way:

Praying to Mary and Saints places our trust in Jesus Christ into question.
It suggests that we think Jesus Christ is not sufficient enough to intercede for us....that He needs some
"back-up" to put more weight to His intercession.

If you believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate - then, you better heed that self-description God had put in the First Commandment: I am a jealous God.

Jesus Christ is all we need. He is sufficient.
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:
Think of it this way:

Praying to Mary and Saints places our trust in Jesus Christ into question.
It suggests that we think Jesus Christ is not sufficient enough to intercede for us....that He needs some
"back-up" to put more weight to His intercession.

If you believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate - then, you better heed that self-description God had put in the First Commandment: I am a jealous God.

Jesus Christ is all we need. He is sufficient.
Click to expand...
I am trying to find an old Quaker saying which beautifully sums up your sentiment. When I do, I'll post it. I don't trust my memory to accurately post it, and it's good enough that I shouldn't screw it up.
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

americanwoman said:
I often wondered that myself. Seems to be mainly a Catholic thing, or no? A lot of Catholics I know do pray to her and praise her.

So it seems the way some people and churches excessively praise her would border on worship which does contradict the commandment.
Click to expand...

"Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

We venerate her for being the mother of the physical manifestation of God (this basically makes her the most important human being to ever live besides Christ himself), and ask that she keep us in her prayers on those grounds.

As such, it is not idolatry, because she is not a deity. She is a person. Only God can give you what you ask for. You're simply asking Mary to put in a good word for you.
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Praying to Mary has a specific historical background.....

When the Catholic Church attempted to convert the Gaelic, Celtic and other Northern peoples, they ran into a small problem; namely thick metal blades being shoved into the monk's chests at regular intervals by the male members of these tribes. Considering that these tribes also had female deities in their pantheons, and in several cases had goddesses whose stories had similarities with the story of Mary, the monks made a decision with a two-fold purpose.....

1. The women seemed to stab them in the chest less frequently
2. By converting the women, they also converted the next generation of children (and eventually the men).

Thus was the veneration of Mary born as a means to convert the heathen tribes of Britania and Northern Europe.
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Tigger said:
Praying to Mary has a specific historical background.....

When the Catholic Church attempted to convert the Gaelic, Celtic and other Northern peoples, they ran into a small problem; namely thick metal blades being shoved into the monk's chests at regular intervals by the male members of these tribes. Considering that these tribes also had female deities in their pantheons, and in several cases had goddesses whose stories had similarities with the story of Mary, the monks made a decision with a two-fold purpose.....

1. The women seemed to stab them in the chest less frequently
2. By converting the women, they also converted the next generation of children (and eventually the men).

Thus was the veneration of Mary born as a means to convert the heathen tribes of Britania and Northern Europe.
Click to expand...

This was the typical tactic of the RCC when they commandeered pagan holidays to make them Christian holidays so the pagans were celebrating God rather then their gods.
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

It's ridiculous. We don't worship Mary and the Saints. That's problem #1. Problem #2 is that you try to defend iconoclasm which is nonsense. Third, did not St. Paul constantly ask those he wrote to to pray for him? Was he then committing a grave sin by asking others to pray for him?
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:
Fifth, we do not ask the dead to pray for us. If we should, why not pray to Abraham, Isaiah, or Elijah?
Abraham was able to successfully NEGOTIATE with God when he tried to save Sodom and Gomorrah, therefore if we should ask anyone among the dead to pray for us....Abraham would be a good choice.
Click to expand...

Eastern Catholics do this more frequently than Roman Catholics.
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:
Furthermore, should we name churches after anyone other than God or Christ?

I grew up in a church that's named Immaculate Conception - which is not so bad if we're referring to the One in the womb - however, on the altar was this giant statue of Mary. We bowed before her. We sang psalms and hymns to her. We gave praises....and even had novenas for her!

However you may want to call it - it is worship! You may not realize it simply because you've been doing it for so long....it is worshipping!

Read the first Commandment, I urge you.
Click to expand...

How is it worship when we always ask her to intercede for us?
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

phattonez said:
How is it worship when we always ask her to intercede for us?
Click to expand...

Why not just ask Jesus to do it?
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

phattonez said:
How is it worship when we always ask her to intercede for us?
Click to expand...



1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Tigger said:
Praying to Mary has a specific historical background.....

When the Catholic Church attempted to convert the Gaelic, Celtic and other Northern peoples, they ran into a small problem; namely thick metal blades being shoved into the monk's chests at regular intervals by the male members of these tribes. Considering that these tribes also had female deities in their pantheons, and in several cases had goddesses whose stories had similarities with the story of Mary, the monks made a decision with a two-fold purpose.....

1. The women seemed to stab them in the chest less frequently
2. By converting the women, they also converted the next generation of children (and eventually the men).

Thus was the veneration of Mary born as a means to convert the heathen tribes of Britania and Northern Europe.
Click to expand...




I confess, I LOL'd. :lamo
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

American said:
Why not just ask Jesus to do it?
Click to expand...

Why do you ask your friends and family to pray for you? Why do you pray for your family? Why can't your family pray for themselves?
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

American said:
Why not just ask Jesus to do it?
Click to expand...

Why assume that those who regard Mary as an intercessor don't speak directly to Jesus about whatever it is?
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:
1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Click to expand...

Yes, we always pray to Our Lord. When we ask the saints to intercede for us, well to whom do you think that they are interceding?
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

nota bene said:
Why assume that those who regard Mary as an intercessor don't speak directly to Jesus about whatever it is?
Click to expand...

Then why speak to Mary?
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

I think if you'll reread my post you quoted, you will find your answer.
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

phattonez said:
Yes, we always pray to Our Lord. When we ask the saints to intercede for us, well to whom do you think that they are interceding?
Click to expand...

But why do you have to do it through Mary and saints? Why not ask Jesus to intercede for you?
That's what He's telling us to do. It's so simple.


1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:
But why do you have to do it through Mary and saints? Why not ask Jesus to intercede for you?
That's what He's telling us to do. It's so simple.


1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Click to expand...

No one says that you have to. However, having the prayers of yourself alone, versus you and the communion of saints, well, why not get the saints to pray for you too?
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

Think about it.

1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

One. Not two. Or three. ONE MEDIATOR.

For it to be written, obviously it has great significance.
The verse is saying, "There are no other mediators, except Jesus!"


What more when Jesus Himself had explained:
John 14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


So instead of hailing Mary....shouldn't we instead hail our Lord? And obey Him?
 
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Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

tosca1 said:
Think about it.

1 Timothy 2
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

One. Not two. Or three. ONE MEDIATOR.

For it to be written, obviously it has great significance.
The verse is saying, "There are no other mediators, except Jesus!"
Click to expand...

Doesn't your interpretation then negate the idea of prayer? After all, only Jesus can speak to God, and if no one else can pray for us, then how can we pray for ourselves?

What more when Jesus Himself had explained:
John 14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


So instead of hailing Mary....shouldn't we instead hail our Lord? And obey Him?
Click to expand...

We do obey Him.
 
Re: Praying to Mary and the Saints

phattonez said:
Doesn't your interpretation then negate the idea of prayer? After all, only Jesus can speak to God, and if no one else can pray for us, then how can we pray for ourselves?
Click to expand...

How did you come to that conclusion?

What's having only ONE mediator, and asking in HIS NAME got to do with negating prayers????

If you want a mediator, or someone to intercede - then go to Jesus. You direct your prayers to Him!
His instruction is quite simple and clear!
 
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