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UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

I doubt there is anything Ravi hasn't been pinned down on given he does so many Q&A's. More or less the same way as Cameron spoke in regards to the hypothetical regarding his son the Piers posed: Feeling some way does not mean one has to act on it. He believes it is possible to be gay and be a Christian but not be gay and be a leader in the community, at least though he gets murky in the last minute and a half and almost undercuts his argument IMO. It comes across as if yes you can be a gay christian but as a practicing gay who is a christian you cannot participate in the Christian community. Maybe you can watch it and come to a different interpretation.

Thank you for that video.

Going back to Cameron and Morgan....he should've been quite frank when he was asked if homosexuality is a sin. He should've given a resounding, yes it is a sin....just like adultery is a sin.

As for practicing gay not being welcomed in a Christian community....that too, is in keeping with the teachings in the Bible. Catholics have a word for that: excommunication.

It's not just for practicing gays - but anyone who deliberately disobey God. ESPECIALLY those who create divisions.
Gay marriage issue is an example that causes division - and confusions. If one would insist to want to accept gay marriage, then join a religion that accepts it.


1 Cor 5: 9-13
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[d]


Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

2 Thess 3:14
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.


Yes, a gay person can be a Christian. Like I said, it is the sexual act between same sex that's sinful. Temptation is not a sin. Succumbing to temptation and doing what is forbidden, is.

--------------------------

When compared to seasoned Evangelists like William lane Craig and Ravi Zaccharias...it is obvious that Cameron is not
as experienced. There's nothing wrong with that.
Imo, Cameron is simply doing his own ministry like countless of other unknown Christians all over the world who takes their duty to spread the gospel quite seriously. He's found his calling.
We are supposed to use our God-given talent or skills.


Romans 12
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, [let us wait] on [our] ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, [let him do it] with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.



1 Corinthians 12:1-31
Spiritual Gifts
12 Now concerning[a] spiritual gifts, brothers,[c] I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
 
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Well I am Methodist. We just prefer to talk about people behind their backs :mrgreen:
 
Well I am Methodist. We just prefer to talk about people behind their backs :mrgreen:

Today in church from the pulpit the Minister said it is okay to drink. Kinda funny cause George Bush was there today too.
 
Fisher
He believes it is possible to be gay and be a Christian but not be gay and be a leader in the community, at least though he gets murky in the last minute and a half and almost undercuts his argument IMO.

How does he undercut his argument?

If Christians consider homosexual act as sinful as adultery - our reaction to having a practicing gay as a leader in the community ought to be the same as we react to adulterers.

We impeach presidents, and force the resignations of mayors, and generals, or anyone who hold public office or prominent positions in our community for committing or indulging in adultery or immoral acts - why should homosexual act be treated any differently?

Imo, Cameron - as a Christian - is being consistent in his view.
 
Today in church from the pulpit the Minister said it is okay to drink. Kinda funny cause George Bush was there today too.

We live in a society that is in for a penny in for a pound on a lot of things without appreciating that it is a nuanced position regarding excesses that is at play. I have no problem with churches that use communion cranberry juice but they really shouldn't pretend that wine is sinful as some do because it has alcohol.
 
We live in a society that is in for a penny in for a pound on a lot of things without appreciating that it is a nuanced position regarding excesses that is at play. I have no problem with churches that use communion cranberry juice but they really shouldn't pretend that wine is sinful as some do because it has alcohol.

I'm Baptist. We use cranberry juice....but I think the reason for it is not because drinking wine is a sin (Jesus made water into wine, so how could it be forbidden). The reason is that there might be some folks who've had drinking problems and are supposed to avoid alcohol.
 
We live in a society that is in for a penny in for a pound on a lot of things without appreciating that it is a nuanced position regarding excesses that is at play. I have no problem with churches that use communion cranberry juice but they really shouldn't pretend that wine is sinful as some do because it has alcohol.

I never understood the strict position on alcohol held in some 'christian' churches.

Jesus turned water into wine, 'nough said.
 
Yes, Jesus chose to perform His first miracle at a wedding, which is significant, and that miracle was turning water into wine.

Later, He said (Matthew 26:29), "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
 
Yes, Jesus chose to perform His first miracle at a wedding, which is significant, and that miracle was turning water into wine.

Later, He said (Matthew 26:29), "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."


The concern with wine is drunkenness. Anything excessive or an addiction - whether it be by alcohol, drugs, food, etc.., - is forbidden. As a couple of verses stated, we cannot allow our bodies to be "mastered" by anything.


What God commands Christians regarding alcohol is to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The Bible condemns drunkenness and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35). Christians are also commanded to not allow their bodies to be “mastered” by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Drinking alcohol in excess is undeniably addictive. Scripture also forbids a Christian from doing anything that might offend other Christians or encourage them to sin against their conscience (1 Corinthians 8:9-13). In light of these principles, it would be extremely difficult for any Christian to say he is drinking alcohol in excess to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).

Jesus changed water into wine. It even seems that Jesus drank wine on occasion (John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:29). In New Testament times, the water was not very clean. Without modern sanitation, the water was often filled with bacteria, viruses, and all kinds of contaminants. The same is true in many third-world countries today. As a result, people often drank wine (or grape juice) because it was far less likely to be contaminated.

In 1 Timothy 5:23, Paul was instructing Timothy to stop drinking the water (which was probably causing his stomach problems) and instead drink wine. In that day, wine was fermented (containing alcohol), but not necessarily to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine commonly used today. Again, Scripture does not forbid Christians from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Alcohol is not, in and of itself, tainted by sin. It is drunkenness and addiction to alcohol that a Christian must absolutely refrain from (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:12).
MORE....
Read more: What does the Bible say about drinking alcohol / wine? Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol / wine?

Furthermore, science has now proven that drinking wine - in moderate quantities, which is consistent with the Bible - is beneficial to our health.

Curiously, science has now proven that eating fish is also beneficial to our health. Two great miracles done by Jesus involved the multiplying of the fish and the turning of water into wine - and both were done for consumption.

Speaking of healthy foods, this reminds me of the "diet" of John the Baptist who mostly ate honey and nuts - what does science say now about these two?
 
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As to Matthew 26:29



Matthew 26
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”


Take note that he didn't say, "YOU will not drink...."

I interpret line 29 to indicate that Jesus will celebrate on that day - by drinking wine - when Christians are finally in His Father's kingdom. It seems almost like us, when we celebrate an important occasion by toasting and drinking wine.
Or when we save that vintage wine for a very important occasion.

To Him, having His followers in His Father's kingdom is cause for a big celebration!
In fact, He says He wouldn't be drinking until that day comes!


The Bible says there will be feasting!


Matthew 8:11
11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.


Luke 22:30
30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.



Check out Isaiah 25. Couild it be referring to a great banquet on that day referred to by Jesus in Matthew 26?


Isaiah 25
On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine—
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.
 
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Come to think of it, the Last Supper clearly indicates that drinking wine is not forbidden.



1 Cor 11:25
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."
 



Unstoppable is a one-night event on Sep 24, in theatres across the US. This trailer was initially banned by youtube and facebook because it was allegedly mistaken for a spam.


Unstoppable will address the question, why does God let bad things happen to good people?


He has a right to do it. I guess he has enough backing to promote something like this. I cannot say i would regard him as a well educated and learned person even in the realm of christianity, but he may be using his fame to promote other people's work which is what a actor like him is for. I am sure it will make the born again evangelicals happy to see, and reinforce their beliefs. Though I may not agree with their philosophy and many of their methods, if it entertains people it has a place.

The only thing i object to is the manufactured controversy. Facebook and youtube operate on systems of reports for things like spam and problematic accounts. The movie seems to have suffered from what is probably report stalking. Cameron is a disliked person who many people feel a need to oppose and they probably reported his trailers like this because they were aware it would trigger a spam alert and the mods of two of the biggest internet sites would remove it because they are probably overwhelmed and don't pay attention to things like that unless they are fought against. It was the best thing for his movie as it spawned multiple large media reports and free advertising for him. There is little to nothing to do with the religious message or movie's quality that had to do with the ban.

I do not see this movie having huge appeal outside the evangelical movement and their opponents. Kirk's religious views are fairly radical and do not represent the values of moderates in the religion. Perhaps this is not the rhetoric he normally goes with as he is trying to address a pretty specific and realistic problem that comes from a philosophy that defines god as all loving, but yet lets bad things happen. That is a valid question in the philosophy and certainly one that many people have sought to address with reasoning. I do not see any real problem in having a voluntarily attended media explanation. The only real problem I see is a movie does not allow for more specific questions and answers for those who may need more advice in the matter. If the movie does not answer the question fully for a viewer then what would be the value for a person who actually wants the questions answered and is not just looking for validation through shared philosophy? At least at church you could talk to the priest if you did not get the sermon.
 
As for practicing gay not being welcomed in a Christian community....that too, is in keeping with the teachings in the Bible. Catholics have a word for that: excommunication.
Never once have I heard of a Catholic excommunication of a greedy person, nor have I heard evangelicals kick greedy people out of their church, yet Jesus and Paul and James denounce greed over and over and over again, whereas homosexuality isn't even mentioned in the NT (except in the strained imaginings of the religious right)

I'd note that in the verse you quoted from 1 Corinthians, Paul says that the real Christians should kick greedy people out of the church and shouldn't even eat with them. Yeah, that happens a lot in modern doctrinal Christianty!



1 Cor 5: 9-13
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”


This hypocrisy is why modern doctrinal Christianity has become so irrelevant to religious people. It strains at a gnat but doesn't see the beam in its eye.
 
C.S Lewis wrote a book "The Problem of Pain" One of the best texts on the subject in my opinion...
 
whereas homosexuality isn't even mentioned in the NT (except in the strained imaginings of the religious right)


Romans 1
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men


1 Tim 1
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Jude 1
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
 
Romans 1
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men


1 Tim 1
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Jude 1
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Pssst:

1. Romans 1 says that the sin is idolatry; the punishment is "unnatural" sex -- which suggests that the idolators were straight. In any case, read Romans 2 where Paul says NOT to judge the sinners of Romans 1. And what are you and Cameron doing?

2. BUZZZZ. Look at the Greek in 1 Cor 6. The translation is totally false and tendentious. The word used there is arsenokoites, whose meaning is obscure (it is an extremely rare Greek word) but clearly doesn't mean "men having sex with men". It probably means pederasty, which was rife in Paul's time. Homosexuality was a concept unknown to antiquity per se.

http://www.clgs.org/arsenokoités-and-malakos-meanings-and-consequences

3. BUZZZZ. Arsenokoites doesn't mean gay sex. Try again.

4. What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah? Homosexuality you say? Try again:

Ezekiel: 16:49-51 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50

Funny how the fundis ignore this passage, isn't it?
 
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Pssst:

1. Romans 1 says that the sin is idolatry; the punishment is "unnatural" sex -- which suggests that the idolators were straight. In any case, read Romans 2 where Paul says NOT to judge the sinners of Romans 1. And what are you and Cameron doing?

2. BUZZZZ. Look at the Greek in 1 Cor 6. The translation is totally false and tendentious. The word used there is arsenokoites, whose meaning is obscure (it is an extremely rare Greek word) but clearly doesn't mean "men having sex with men". It probably means pederasty, which was rife in Paul's time. Homosexuality was a concept unknown to antiquity per se.

Arsenokoités and Malakos: Meanings and Consequences | CLGS

3. BUZZZZ. Arsenokoites doesn't mean gay sex. Try again.

4. What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah? Homosexuality you say? Try again:

Ezekiel: 16:49-51 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50

Funny how the fundis ignore this passage, isn't it?

:roll: Here we go again....

I'm not going to get into your convoluted argument - the same way you're trying to show that Jesus was pushing for a socialist government!

Just look at your interpretation of Sodom and Gomorrha - you totally disregarded the whole story of Lot. You're simply quote-mining. Your quote is incomplete....here is more from Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 16
49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. Even so, you are now scorned by the daughters of Edom[e] and all her neighbors and the daughters of the Philistines—all those around you who despise you. 58 You will bear the consequences of your lewdness and your detestable practices, declares the Lord.


Clearly, they did more offenses than just those few that you quoted.
Believe what you want to believe. For those readers who want to seriously understand,

Read Genesis 19
Genesis 19 NKJV - Sodom

And here's the story summary of that section about Sodom and Gomorrha.
Sodom And Gomorrah - Why God Destroyed Sodom And Gomorrah
 
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:roll: I'm not going to get into your convoluted argument - the same way you're trying to show that Jesus was pushing for socialist government!

Just look at your interpretation of Sodom and Gomorrha - you totally disregarded the whole story of Lot. You're simply quote-mining.
Believe what you want.

If you can't deal with what Ezekiel actually said about Sodom's sin, then just say so. Stop using cultural and theological interpretations that have nothing to do with the text to make your argument.

I repeat:

Ezekiel: 16:49-51 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50

Does this sound like gay sex to you?
 
If you can't deal with what Ezekiel actually said about Sodom's sin, then just say so. Stop using cultural and theological interpretations that have nothing to do with the text to make your argument.

I repeat:

Ezekiel: 16:49-51 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50

Does this sound like gay sex to you?

No, that doesn't sound like gay sex....because you edited the Scriptures to suit your purpose.

Why don't you post Ezekiel 16:49-58?

Enough said.
 
Speaking of Sodom from this Genesis 19 verse:

4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”


The men of the city, both young and old wanted to have sex with the male guests of Lot. And all the people from every quarter - which would mean to include a mixture of women, old and young - came to be spectators, I suppose.

What does that imply? Why would all the men want to have sex with men? And why would all the people seem to find this as a form of amusement - approving the behaviours of the men in the city? We're not only talking homosexuality here - but also rape by multiple would-be perpetrators.
Were all the men born homosexuals? NO!

The logical reason for that will be: the people of Sodom saw nothing wrong with homosexuality! Or bi-sexuality!
They'd accepted it as another normal lifestyle! Perversity had become the norm.
Just like what's happening now in our society.
 
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Why would I? From the "new posts" tab, you can see the first paragraph and the thread title. Never occurs to me to look at the right side column to see what subforum it's in.

Otherwise, trust me.. this is the last place I'd head.

And you prove that to us by still being here.
 
Never once have I heard of a Catholic excommunication of a greedy person, nor have I heard evangelicals kick greedy people out of their church, yet Jesus and Paul and James denounce greed over and over and over again, whereas homosexuality isn't even mentioned in the NT (except in the strained imaginings of the religious right)

I'd note that in the verse you quoted from 1 Corinthians, Paul says that the real Christians should kick greedy people out of the church and shouldn't even eat with them. Yeah, that happens a lot in modern doctrinal Christianty!



1 Cor 5: 9-13
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”


This hypocrisy is why modern doctrinal Christianity has become so irrelevant to religious people. It strains at a gnat but doesn't see the beam in its eye.

Did you ever see Jesus kick out a greedy person or walk away from sinners? No, those were the ones he hung around the most, because they needed him the most. It's blatantly obvious that you are fathoms over your head here. I'd scurry along or just listen for a change if I were you, so you won't continue to embarrass yourself here.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Stick to the topic.
 
No, that doesn't sound like gay sex....because you edited the Scriptures to suit your purpose.

Why don't you post Ezekiel 16:49-58?

Enough said.

Show us where Ezekiel mentions gay sex. That's all you have to do. It isn't there.

In any case, I think this is indicative of how a fixation on anti-gay themes should always be taken with a grain of salt. It's usually ginned up with bad theology, historical prejudices and poor scholarship, and I expect Cameron has given us much the same, so it's hard to take him seriously on other Christian issues.
 



Unstoppable is a one-night event on Sep 24, in theatres across the US. This trailer was initially banned by youtube and facebook because it was allegedly mistaken for a spam.


Unstoppable will address the question, why does God let bad things happen to good people?


If he wanted to end this debate once and for all, why was it just a one night event?
 
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