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Thread: UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

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    re: UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    We live in a society that is in for a penny in for a pound on a lot of things without appreciating that it is a nuanced position regarding excesses that is at play. I have no problem with churches that use communion cranberry juice but they really shouldn't pretend that wine is sinful as some do because it has alcohol.
    I'm Baptist. We use cranberry juice....but I think the reason for it is not because drinking wine is a sin (Jesus made water into wine, so how could it be forbidden). The reason is that there might be some folks who've had drinking problems and are supposed to avoid alcohol.

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    re: UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    We live in a society that is in for a penny in for a pound on a lot of things without appreciating that it is a nuanced position regarding excesses that is at play. I have no problem with churches that use communion cranberry juice but they really shouldn't pretend that wine is sinful as some do because it has alcohol.
    I never understood the strict position on alcohol held in some 'christian' churches.

    Jesus turned water into wine, 'nough said.
    I believe half of the things I say and say half of the things I believe.

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    re: UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

    Yes, Jesus chose to perform His first miracle at a wedding, which is significant, and that miracle was turning water into wine.

    Later, He said (Matthew 26:29), "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

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    re: UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Yes, Jesus chose to perform His first miracle at a wedding, which is significant, and that miracle was turning water into wine.

    Later, He said (Matthew 26:29), "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

    The concern with wine is drunkenness. Anything excessive or an addiction - whether it be by alcohol, drugs, food, etc.., - is forbidden. As a couple of verses stated, we cannot allow our bodies to be "mastered" by anything.


    What God commands Christians regarding alcohol is to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The Bible condemns drunkenness and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35). Christians are also commanded to not allow their bodies to be “mastered” by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Drinking alcohol in excess is undeniably addictive. Scripture also forbids a Christian from doing anything that might offend other Christians or encourage them to sin against their conscience (1 Corinthians 8:9-13). In light of these principles, it would be extremely difficult for any Christian to say he is drinking alcohol in excess to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).

    Jesus changed water into wine. It even seems that Jesus drank wine on occasion (John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:29). In New Testament times, the water was not very clean. Without modern sanitation, the water was often filled with bacteria, viruses, and all kinds of contaminants. The same is true in many third-world countries today. As a result, people often drank wine (or grape juice) because it was far less likely to be contaminated.

    In 1 Timothy 5:23, Paul was instructing Timothy to stop drinking the water (which was probably causing his stomach problems) and instead drink wine. In that day, wine was fermented (containing alcohol), but not necessarily to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine commonly used today. Again, Scripture does not forbid Christians from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Alcohol is not, in and of itself, tainted by sin. It is drunkenness and addiction to alcohol that a Christian must absolutely refrain from (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:12).
    MORE....
    Read more: What does the Bible say about drinking alcohol / wine? Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol / wine?

    Furthermore, science has now proven that drinking wine - in moderate quantities, which is consistent with the Bible - is beneficial to our health.

    Curiously, science has now proven that eating fish is also beneficial to our health. Two great miracles done by Jesus involved the multiplying of the fish and the turning of water into wine - and both were done for consumption.

    Speaking of healthy foods, this reminds me of the "diet" of John the Baptist who mostly ate honey and nuts - what does science say now about these two?
    Last edited by tosca1; 07-29-13 at 04:20 AM.

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    re: UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

    As to Matthew 26:29



    Matthew 26
    26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
    27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”


    Take note that he didn't say, "YOU will not drink...."

    I interpret line 29 to indicate that Jesus will celebrate on that day - by drinking wine - when Christians are finally in His Father's kingdom. It seems almost like us, when we celebrate an important occasion by toasting and drinking wine.
    Or when we save that vintage wine for a very important occasion.

    To Him, having His followers in His Father's kingdom is cause for a big celebration!
    In fact, He says He wouldn't be drinking until that day comes!


    The Bible says there will be feasting!


    Matthew 8:11
    11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.


    Luke 22:30
    30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.



    Check out Isaiah 25. Couild it be referring to a great banquet on that day referred to by Jesus in Matthew 26?


    Isaiah 25
    On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
    a feast of rich food for all peoples,
    a banquet of aged wine—
    the best of meats and the finest of wines.
    7 On this mountain he will destroy
    the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
    the sheet that covers all nations;
    8 he will swallow up death forever.
    The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
    from all faces;
    he will remove his people’s disgrace
    from all the earth.
    The Lord has spoken.
    Last edited by tosca1; 07-29-13 at 05:31 AM.

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    re: UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

    Come to think of it, the Last Supper clearly indicates that drinking wine is not forbidden.



    1 Cor 11:25
    In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

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    re: UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

    Quote Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post



    Unstoppable is a one-night event on Sep 24, in theatres across the US. This trailer was initially banned by youtube and facebook because it was allegedly mistaken for a spam.


    Unstoppable will address the question, why does God let bad things happen to good people?
    He has a right to do it. I guess he has enough backing to promote something like this. I cannot say i would regard him as a well educated and learned person even in the realm of christianity, but he may be using his fame to promote other people's work which is what a actor like him is for. I am sure it will make the born again evangelicals happy to see, and reinforce their beliefs. Though I may not agree with their philosophy and many of their methods, if it entertains people it has a place.

    The only thing i object to is the manufactured controversy. Facebook and youtube operate on systems of reports for things like spam and problematic accounts. The movie seems to have suffered from what is probably report stalking. Cameron is a disliked person who many people feel a need to oppose and they probably reported his trailers like this because they were aware it would trigger a spam alert and the mods of two of the biggest internet sites would remove it because they are probably overwhelmed and don't pay attention to things like that unless they are fought against. It was the best thing for his movie as it spawned multiple large media reports and free advertising for him. There is little to nothing to do with the religious message or movie's quality that had to do with the ban.

    I do not see this movie having huge appeal outside the evangelical movement and their opponents. Kirk's religious views are fairly radical and do not represent the values of moderates in the religion. Perhaps this is not the rhetoric he normally goes with as he is trying to address a pretty specific and realistic problem that comes from a philosophy that defines god as all loving, but yet lets bad things happen. That is a valid question in the philosophy and certainly one that many people have sought to address with reasoning. I do not see any real problem in having a voluntarily attended media explanation. The only real problem I see is a movie does not allow for more specific questions and answers for those who may need more advice in the matter. If the movie does not answer the question fully for a viewer then what would be the value for a person who actually wants the questions answered and is not just looking for validation through shared philosophy? At least at church you could talk to the priest if you did not get the sermon.

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    re: UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

    Quote Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post
    As for practicing gay not being welcomed in a Christian community....that too, is in keeping with the teachings in the Bible. Catholics have a word for that: excommunication.
    Never once have I heard of a Catholic excommunication of a greedy person, nor have I heard evangelicals kick greedy people out of their church, yet Jesus and Paul and James denounce greed over and over and over again, whereas homosexuality isn't even mentioned in the NT (except in the strained imaginings of the religious right)

    I'd note that in the verse you quoted from 1 Corinthians, Paul says that the real Christians should kick greedy people out of the church and shouldn't even eat with them. Yeah, that happens a lot in modern doctrinal Christianty!



    1 Cor 5: 9-13
    9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
    12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”


    This hypocrisy is why modern doctrinal Christianity has become so irrelevant to religious people. It strains at a gnat but doesn't see the beam in its eye.

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    re: UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

    C.S Lewis wrote a book "The Problem of Pain" One of the best texts on the subject in my opinion...

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    re: UNSTOPPABLE by Kirk Cameron [W:48]

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    whereas homosexuality isn't even mentioned in the NT (except in the strained imaginings of the religious right)

    Romans 1
    26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    1 Cor 6
    9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men


    1 Tim 1
    8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

    Jude 1
    7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

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