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Why Catholicism is a corruption of Christianity

Acts 1:21-26 was just to replace Judas ... that isn't apostolic succession.

Matthew 16:17-19 I already explained, what the actual outcome of that was was just Peter opening the way for gentiles ... no special authority, he (in acts and the epistles) had NO special authority.

and what do you think replacing Judas to perform apostolic ministry is? succession, what kind? apostolic.

and as for Peter I will show it again with emphasis

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.”

Building the Church upon? given the keys of the kingdom of heaven? the power to bind and loose? no special authority? I mean if these are just things Jesus throws around to just any old body, well.....:slapme:
 
and what do you think replacing Judas to perform apostolic ministry is? succession, what kind? apostolic.

and as for Peter I will show it again with emphasis

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.”

Building the Church upon? given the keys of the kingdom of heaven? the power to bind and loose? no special authority? I mean if these are just things Jesus throws around to just any old body, well.....:slapme:


It's not a succession, it wasn't an institution, it was a one off event, to have the 12 complete, there is no evidence that it was an institution.

About with Peter, we see from Pauls epistles and Acts what that meant. It wasn't a papacy, what he opened was the way for gentiles to be part of the kingdom, that's obviously what Jesus meant, and we know it wasn't special doctrinal authority because the first century church didn't interperate it that way.
 
It's not a succession, it wasn't an institution, it was a one off event, to have the 12 complete, there is no evidence that it was an institution.

About with Peter, we see from Pauls epistles and Acts what that meant. It wasn't a papacy, what he opened was the way for gentiles to be part of the kingdom, that's obviously what Jesus meant, and we know it wasn't special doctrinal authority because the first century church didn't interperate it that way.

You have a very interesting way of viewing things, first off it was Paul, not Peter who was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Second, the apostolic succession was not a 'one off" thing They passed along their apostolic authority to many many many people. Peter the bishop of Rome's successor was Linus this is an Apostolic succession. Not the only one --All the bishops today can trace their succession back to the 12 Apostles. All apostles gave their teaching authority to the ones after them. The bishop of Rome is first among equals. This is because Peter was made the cornerstone. If Peter had been the bishop of Jerusalem (which James was btw) than the papacy would be in Jerusalem.

Now, you keep saying "About with Peter, we see from Pauls epistles and Acts what that meant" but no we don't, you've only given your opinion, which holds no authority, except for you. It is your interpretation, and one that i might add you haven't really presented any evidence towards.

The evidence is overwhelming that the 1st Century Church interpreted things precisely this way.
 
You have a very interesting way of viewing things, first off it was Paul, not Peter who was the Apostle to the Gentiles.

Mark wrote for Peter to the Romans (The Gospel of Mark).
 
Mark wrote for Peter to the Romans (The Gospel of Mark).

If you're going to be the Bishop of Rome than I hope he did court some Romans, you missed the context of what was being said I think, but good catch...
 
You have a very interesting way of viewing things, first off it was Paul, not Peter who was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Second, the apostolic succession was not a 'one off" thing They passed along their apostolic authority to many many many people. Peter the bishop of Rome's successor was Linus this is an Apostolic succession. Not the only one --All the bishops today can trace their succession back to the 12 Apostles. All apostles gave their teaching authority to the ones after them. The bishop of Rome is first among equals. This is because Peter was made the cornerstone. If Peter had been the bishop of Jerusalem (which James was btw) than the papacy would be in Jerusalem.

Now, you keep saying "About with Peter, we see from Pauls epistles and Acts what that meant" but no we don't, you've only given your opinion, which holds no authority, except for you. It is your interpretation, and one that i might add you haven't really presented any evidence towards.

The evidence is overwhelming that the 1st Century Church interpreted things precisely this way.

Yes it was Paul that was the apostle to the gentiles, but it was PETER that recieved the dream to preach to the gentiles and preached the gospel to Cornelius.

What evidence is there that it wasn't a one off thing? It isn't in the scriptures, and all we have pre-4th cenutry is Irenaeus, who never knew any of the apostles and was trying to make an argument against gnostics by arguing that their bishops didn't know the apostles. Irenaeus isn't cannon.

There is no evidence that the apostles gave their authority exclusively to certain people ...

Also the bishop of rome WASN'T the cornerstone, as we can see from the NT James was the leader up until his death in 64. There isn't even evidence in the scriptures that Peter was even IN rome, much less the Bishop of Rome, also we know from the NT that Peter wasn't treated as the leader, he was just one of the 12, and one of the pillars, no one treated his as the leader.

In Galatians 2 Peter is repremanded by Paul, and paul mentions Peter, James and John as "pillars," Also why was Peter reprimanded? Because he was giving into people from James who were Judiazers, he certainly wasn't a Pope. In Acts 15 when the issue of circumsision came up it wasn't Peters call, they had to come to an accord, in fact if anyone was prominent in the decision it was James. In Acts 11 he had to answer to the apostles. I can go on if you'd like.
 
If you're going to be the Bishop of Rome than I hope he did court some Romans, you missed the context of what was being said I think, but good catch...

Yeah, I'm not getting into the succession thing at the moment, I just wanted to note that Peter was an apostle to the Gentiles. My understanding is that Mark was an excellent scribe and assistant not only to Peter specifically but other apostles as well. Another reason for Mark writing the text could be so that Peter did not bring his own writings to the Romans (for credibility and because Romans were more keen on actions than writing, thus endearing Peter as the man of action and not the man of writing).
 
Yes it was Paul that was the apostle to the gentiles, but it was PETER that recieved the dream to preach to the gentiles and preached the gospel to Cornelius.
and your point is....what exactly?


What evidence is there that it wasn't a one off thing? It isn't in the scriptures, and all we have pre-4th cenutry is Irenaeus, who never knew any of the apostles and was trying to make an argument against gnostics by arguing that their bishops didn't know the apostles. Irenaeus isn't cannon.

Yes, it is, you just don't want to accept it. I've already went over this, it is in the scriptures, you not wanting to acknowledge it doesn't mean it isn't there. No, we have scripture, and Tradition from Church Fathers(Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome etc etc ) Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp who was from John the Apostle --see how that works? Apostolic succession

There is no evidence that the apostles gave their authority exclusively to certain people ...

There most certainly is. There's nothing BUT evidence.

Also the bishop of rome WASN'T the cornerstone, as we can see from the NT James was the leader up until his death in 64. There isn't even evidence in the scriptures that Peter was even IN rome, much less the Bishop of Rome, also we know from the NT that Peter wasn't treated as the leader, he was just one of the 12, and one of the pillars, no one treated his as the leader.

Peter, not the Bishop of Rome was the cornerstone, I said that explicitly. No, James wasn't the leader he was the Bishop of Jerusalem The scriptures aren't the end all be all of evidence, the scriptures aren't there to give you a travelogue of Peter, they're there to Proclaim the Gospel of Jesus. Outside sources, which there is more than plenty corroborate Peter in Rome and the Bishop thereof, Of course Peter was treated as a leader whenever spoken of, whenever almost any major move was made, teaching given by Jesus, who was the point man? Peter.

In Galatians 2 Peter is repremanded by Paul, and paul mentions Peter, James and John as "pillars," Also why was Peter reprimanded? Because he was giving into people from James who were Judiazers, he certainly wasn't a Pope. In Acts 15 when the issue of circumsision came up it wasn't Peters call, they had to come to an accord, in fact if anyone was prominent in the decision it was James. In Acts 11 he had to answer to the apostles. I can go on if you'd like.

What does giving in to Judaizers have to do with whether or not he was Pope? And there have been countless Church Councils from the very beginning last was Vatican II, does that mean none of them Popes during those times of Council were Popes too? Acts 11 he explained, not answered to, why would you go on you've not finished what you've attempted to make a start of here?
 
and your point is....what exactly?

That him opening the way for gentiles was the commission that Jesus meant when he gave Peter the "keys to the kingdom."

Yes, it is, you just don't want to accept it. I've already went over this, it is in the scriptures, you not wanting to acknowledge it doesn't mean it isn't there. No, we have scripture, and Tradition from Church Fathers(Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome etc etc ) Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp who was from John the Apostle --see how that works? Apostolic succession

The only scripture you gave was the replacement for Judas ... not succession. What you have is tradition, that was mostly made in the 3th and 4th century, about who was trained by who and so on ... But there is nothing to say that just because Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp who may have known John the apostle, doesn't mean that he's an authority .... Or that his words are cannon, or that his argument AGAINST GNOSTICISM (you have to remember what he was doing), which stated that they were wrong and he knew people who knew the apostles giving him more credibility is somehow an argument for apostolic authoritative succession, it simply doesn't show that.

There most certainly is. There's nothing BUT evidence.

No there isn't, not in the scriptures, not even by the fathers, it's a later tradition.

Peter, not the Bishop of Rome was the cornerstone, I said that explicitly. No, James wasn't the leader he was the Bishop of Jerusalem The scriptures aren't the end all be all of evidence, the scriptures aren't there to give you a travelogue of Peter, they're there to Proclaim the Gospel of Jesus. Outside sources, which there is more than plenty corroborate Peter in Rome and the Bishop thereof, Of course Peter was treated as a leader whenever spoken of, whenever almost any major move was made, teaching given by Jesus, who was the point man? Peter.

Which outside sources? The scriptures show, not only that peter wasn't the leader, but that he had to defer to other apostles ... so if you're claiming those outside sources say that he was a pope then those sources oppose the scriptures.

What does giving in to Judaizers have to do with whether or not he was Pope? And there have been countless Church Councils from the very beginning last was Vatican II, does that mean none of them Popes during those times of Council were Popes too? Acts 11 he explained, not answered to, why would you go on you've not finished what you've attempted to make a start of here?

He listened to the Judaizers becasue they were "men from James," almost all critical scholars understand that James was the leader of the early Church. In the Circumsission issue, Peter wasn't the authority ... James was.

The real question here is Sola-Sciptura, I believe in Sola-Scriptura because of what the scriptures say "do not go beyond what is written." 1 corinthians 4:6, 2 Timothy 3:18 "all scripture is insipred of God."

If you believe in apostolic succession as authority you'd have to demonstrate it from the scriptures, sure the aposltes taught people, but that doesn't prove that they have the right to be part of the canon, or be a divine authority.

The bible is consistant, and clearly the word of God, and there is no reason one should choose (if you're going simply by apostolic succession) the catholic over the orthodox, over the coptic, over the oriental, or even protestant, since they were taught by catholic authorities.

The fact is if a so-called authority goes aagainst the scriptures, you stick with the scriptures.
 
You do if your belief is sola scriptura, anyway.
 
That him opening the way for gentiles was the commission that Jesus meant when he gave Peter the "keys to the kingdom."

That is preposterous with absolutely no evidence to back that up.


The only scripture you gave was the replacement for Judas ... not succession. What you have is tradition, that was mostly made in the 3th and 4th century, about who was trained by who and so on ... But there is nothing to say that just because Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp who may have known John the apostle, doesn't mean that he's an authority .... Or that his words are cannon, or that his argument AGAINST GNOSTICISM (you have to remember what he was doing), which stated that they were wrong and he knew people who knew the apostles giving him more credibility is somehow an argument for apostolic authoritative succession, it simply doesn't show that.

and this is why it is important to click on links I've provided.

No there isn't, not in the scriptures, not even by the fathers, it's a later tradition.

Certainly and most certainly. Where did later tradition get its traditions from?


Which outside sources? The scriptures show, not only that peter wasn't the leader, but that he had to defer to other apostles ... so if you're claiming those outside sources say that he was a pope then those sources oppose the scriptures.

This simply is you denying what's in front of your face, I'll not get repetitive on this.


He listened to the Judaizers becasue they were "men from James," almost all critical scholars understand that James was the leader of the early Church. In the Circumsission issue, Peter wasn't the authority ... James was.

Phoney Baloney, a protestant myth, that is where this idea came from. Almost all PROTESTANT scholars, very convenient.
The real question here is Sola-Sciptura, I believe in Sola-Scriptura because of what the scriptures say "do not go beyond what is written." 1 corinthians 4:6, 2 Timothy 3:18 "all scripture is insipred of God."

and that has already been resolved in my OP the Church created the bible the bible didn't create the Church.
If you believe in apostolic succession as authority you'd have to demonstrate it from the scriptures, sure the aposltes taught people, but that doesn't prove that they have the right to be part of the canon, or be a divine authority.

I did you didn't click on the link apparently.
The bible is consistant, and clearly the word of God, and there is no reason one should choose (if you're going simply by apostolic succession) the catholic over the orthodox, over the coptic, over the oriental, or even protestant, since they were taught by catholic authorities.

There is a plethora of reasons, as many as protestors have interpretations...
The fact is if a so-called authority goes against the scriptures, you stick with the scriptures.

The so called fact is your opinion which goes against scripture because you have no authority in them.





At this point we're starting to talk past each other and since you want to double down and deny the proof I've offered by showing no signs that I have offered it, hey man, God bless, you go your way and I'll go mine. Repeating the same things over and over again I've got no patience for. So good talk.:peace
 
That is preposterous with absolutely no evidence to back that up.

The evidence is in Acts 10, when Peter brings the first Gentile to the church ... that is the ONLY thing that Peter does uniquely in the NT, or in any of the first hand sources that would correspond with what Jesus said, he had the keys, and he opened up the kingdom for non Jews.

and this is why it is important to click on links I've provided.

You can't make the case?

Certainly and most certainly. Where did later tradition get its traditions from?

It can come from many places, there were many traditions, you have gnostic, marcian, ebonite traditions, the "orthodox" won out, but that's why we have to go to the origional sources, and not rely on later traditions, that's why you stick with the scriptures.

This simply is you denying what's in front of your face, I'll not get repetitive on this.

Those are not sources that were THERE, they are much later sources that were justifying the papacy.

Phoney Baloney, a protestant myth, that is where this idea came from. Almost all PROTESTANT scholars, very convenient.

Protestant, agnostic, evangelical, whatever, scholars period, NO ONE has any innate interest in believing that James was the leader, but that's just the fact of the matter.

and that has already been resolved in my OP the Church created the bible the bible didn't create the Church.

No the Church didn't create the bible, they simply put the earliest documents together as the bible .... That's like saying that libraries create literature ... they don't.

There is a plethora of reasons, as many as protestors have interpretations...

Well ... who decides who is the "real" successors? The orthodox have just as much, if not more of a claim.

The so called fact is your opinion which goes against scripture because you have no authority in them.

At this point we're starting to talk past each other and since you want to double down and deny the proof I've offered by showing no signs that I have offered it, hey man, God bless, you go your way and I'll go mine. Repeating the same things over and over again I've got no patience for. So good talk.:peace

I'm quoting scripture, you're quoting later traditions ....

The link you gave me just showed a bunch of so-called proof texts, why don't you make your own case, I could go and discuss every text individually, but I don't see why that would help. I already gave my case, the scriptures say that onyl what is written is what should be followed, Jesus AND the apostles took the scriptures as authority, and so should we, not tradition, not a guy that claims to have apostolic authority.
 
I am also a former Catholic. In fact, in a "past life" (meaning prior to one of those times when I had to redefine my life again), I studied for the priesthood for 2 years and was a candidate to enter the Franciscan order.

Jesus, in fact, never went and said he was starting a new religion. In some ways, every version of Christianity is a corruption of Jesus' vision which was more about changing Judaism. We are clearly not all Jews. A "church" - any church - is a human institution. As such it is subject to human failings. For some people, the idea of a heirarchy makes sense to them, and everybody should be free to join whatever human institution makes sense to them.


Confidentially, just between you and me, Christianity IS the new Judaism. Just because not all Jews converted doesn't mean the change didn't happen.
 
There is nothing about the Pope in the Bible. The idea that the Pope has some sort of divine interpretation of the Bible that every follower of Christ must follow is beyond ridiculous if you actually read the Bible, and is itself a sinful concept (the concept that one man's interpretation trumps all others). There is absolutely nothing about the entire hierarchy of the Catholic church in the Bible and nothing about any of the customs and rituals that are associated with it (such as celibacy for priests). The will of one man is not always the will of God. The Pope is subject to the same temptations that Judas was subject to.

I am denouncing the Catholic Church on the most basic theological grounds. The teachings of Christ encourage the idea that each man should read the Bible himself. If God is what the Bible purports him to be, then he would ensure that his followers are able to understand his teachings.

"You are Peter and on this rock I will found my Church"
 
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