• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

1 man, 1 woman isn't the Bible's only marriage view

Three Iowa academics

I stopped right there. This is no different than those academics who challenge various interpretations of the Quran, and they end up being as useful as tits on a bull: religious text is extremely malleable. What basically defines one interpretation as "more correct" is the willingness of adherents to adopt it. Academics do not carry any authority in the religion itself
 
good
i look forward to seeing an example of your biblical scholarship documenting exactly what they got wrong

Their work consists of saying that because prominent people in the Bible had multiple wives that it negates the notion that marriage is for one man and one woman. However, in Corinthians paul talks about a man having his own wife (singular) and a woman having her own husband (singular).

Matthew, Mark both talk about man and woman, both singular, being one flesh. You cannot introduce a third party and still be one flesh, it doesn't work that way.

Genesis, God said that he will make man a helper, singular yet again.

In the OT, the men who had more than one wife, it always cause their down-fall. Look at Soloman, David, Jacob, and so on. It was never condoned or encouraged by God.
 
I never understood how those who use the bible as their guiding principles can choose to ignore the more unsavory parts and champion the ones they want. It would be like me choosing to accept the thirteenth to the Constituition, but not the first amendment. Doesn't make sense.

It's how religion is practiced, and offers an easy means of "updating" it. After all, we are talking about something solely built around belief
 
I stopped right there. This is no different than those academics who challenge various interpretations of the Quran, and they end up being as useful as tits on a bull: religious text is extremely malleable. What basically defines one interpretation as "more correct" is the willingness of adherents to adopt it. Academics do not carry any authority in the religion itself

but they do contribute to the discussion to present that reliance upon the bible to justify ONLY 1 man 1 woman marriage is a fallacious exercise
 
but they do contribute to the discussion to present that reliance upon the bible to justify ONLY 1 man 1 woman marriage is a fallacious exercise


My point is if it isn't coming from someone with authority in the religion, it's meaningless to the believer. I mean, we can wax on all day about what academic studies reveal about the bible, but it doesn't amount to much if it's simply dismissed by adherents
 
My point is if it isn't coming from someone with authority in the religion, it's meaningless to the believer. I mean, we can wax on all day about what academic studies reveal about the bible, but it doesn't amount to much if it's simply dismissed by adherents

adherents who rely on such wrongly attributed biblical positions now face a dilemma when confronted by others holding a different position supported by the academicians
there is no absolute standard the adherents can point to in order to defend their supposedly biblically based position
 
Frankly from listening to the most vocal of Christians - you would think the only thing Jesus cared about was stomping down gay people and abortion.

So divorce and remarriage is a sin. I'd love to see the evangelicals (which have a higher divorce and remarriage rate than the general population) go for this!
 
adherents who rely on such wrongly attributed biblical positions now face a dilemma when confronted by others holding a different position supported by the academicians

Not really. They simply dismiss them. Religious views and interpretations are not really evidence based to begin with.


[q
 
:shrug: Divorce as it is practiced today is certainly unbiblical. One of my biggest critiques of the American church is the extent to which they have acquiesced to this.

No it's not: Jesus says divorce is fine, if based on the immorality of a wife. You just quoted him. There is no ambiguity -- if we (foolishly) take it literally.

I wonder if instead of making marriage law, he's actually making a point with the hypocritical Pharisees? You think, maybe?
 
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it isn't sinful.

Re-read Romans 1:26-28 in my post. It specifically says that God gave them over to their desires and allowed them to do so. He gave them the choice, but for that there will be consequences (which the state will not be the one giving).

I think you should read it. Paul says in Romans 1 CLEARLY that the sin is idolatry (which he later includes greed in the definition), not homosexuality, and that the punishment (not the sin) is homosexual desires which are "unnatural" for those people (meaning that they specifically aren't gay but straight). It is apparently your homophobia that prevents you from reading Paul's plain words here.

Then in Romans 2:1, what does he say about judging those people? Read it. Homophobes always misread and stop at Romans 1. Romans 2 says that they are as bad as the idolaters if they judge them. And what are you doing right now?
 
The whole point of this thread assumes that all details in the lives of patriachs were "ethical" and "moral," they wern't, and manytimes they were not punished or sufferend any negative consequences for unethical things they did, like lie (abraham lied a couple times), steal and so on, they are stories of people struggling with serving God and struggeling with Moral issues.

the 1 man 1 woman comes from Genesis, i.e. the origional intent of God.

The bible is not a unitary book and there is no "original intent" of God in it. It's absurd to claim that Deuteronomy and the gospel of John have anything in common.
 
I stopped right there. This is no different than those academics who challenge various interpretations of the Quran, and they end up being as useful as tits on a bull: religious text is extremely malleable. What basically defines one interpretation as "more correct" is the willingness of adherents to adopt it. Academics do not carry any authority in the religion itself

Well, they do if you're looking at the philology of the texts and what the words mean (as opposed to religious doctrines, which I agree are a separate issue).

Apropos of that, the Greek word arsenikoites, which was translated as "sodomites" in early English translations of the bible, and homosexuals more recently, clearly doesn't mean that, as virtually every Greek scholar agrees. It may mean pederast or it may mean temple prostitute, but it doesn't mean gay man. That's just bad philology.
 
How does the bible suppot slavery did not the people who god saved from servitude weren't they slaves . Did Mosses not say let my people go .

The Hebrew Scriptures have numerous passages in which "God" tells Israel to enslave conquered enemies, using the women, who were kept as rape slaves (only the virgins - i.e., little girls -- by the way). The men and boys were killed. The nonvirgin females too. Passages also involving instructions to kill babies in the womb.

Gloss this all you want, portions of the Hebrew Scripture are violent and immoral by any normal standard of decency.
 
The Hebrew Scriptures have numerous passages in which "God" tells Israel to enslave conquered enemies, using the women, who were kept as rape slaves (only the virgins - i.e., little girls -- by the way). The men and boys were killed. The nonvirgin females too. Passages also involving instructions to kill babies in the womb.

Gloss this all you want, portions of the Hebrew Scripture are violent and immoral by any normal standard of decency.

Or, the civilizations were being purged of sin.
 
The Bible does discuss how marriage is between men and women and that homosexual sex is sinful and an immoral act. Polygamy is technically not a sin in the Bible, but we know from the creation of Adam and Eve that God's intent for marriage is that a man only have 1 wife and a woman only have 1 husband. In Deuteronomy it says that a man (talking about the king) should not have "too many wives" and later in the New Testament says that if a man is to be in spiritual leadership he needs to only have 1 wife. .

Needless to say, this argues against your claim, not for it. Polygamy is clearly favored in the Hebrew Scriptures. The founder of Judaism was a polygamist. The wisest of the Hebrew kings, Solomon had a thousand wives (i.e., concubines).

The fact that Deuteronmy 17:7 says for kings not to take "too many wives" implies it's OK to have many, just not too many.

Paul for his part says bishops shouldn't have more than one wife. He never says anything about non-officials. Jesus never says anything about the issue; just that you shouldn't divorce (except for female infidelity -- not male), and of course he was making a point that had nothing to do with marriage per se.

A pretty confused mixture here, the result of the fact that the "bible" is not a book, it isn't unitary, it's dozens of unrelated texts written over hundreds of years by different authors in different cultures for different audiences for different reasons. To pretend to discern an "original" or single view of marriage in this mélange is absurd.

Am I the only Christian left on the planet who actually focuses on the gospel and not all this other stuff? I guess that makes me a Marcionite.
 
Or, the civilizations were being purged of sin.

Didn't work very well, did it. Meantime, gloss away. Saying it's Ok to rip babies from wombs and turn 8 year old girls into sex slave, if it's "purging sin" provides an insight into the doctrinal Christian mind that I think we should all contemplate. This Voluntarist view of God is truly chilling, and to my mind totally at odds with the gospel.
 
Didn't work very well, did it. Meantime, gloss away. Saying it's Ok to rip babies from wombs and turn 8 year old girls into sex slave, if it's "purging sin" provides an insight into the doctrinal Christian mind that I think we should all contemplate. This Voluntarist view of God is truly chilling, and to my mind totally at odds with the gospel.

Who said it was ok to turn an 8 year old girl into a sex slave? Citation?
 
Well, they do if you're looking at the philology of the texts and what the words mean (as opposed to religious doctrines, which I agree are a separate issue).

I'm speaking solely of religious interpretations
 
Their work consists of saying that because prominent people in the Bible had multiple wives that it negates the notion that marriage is for one man and one woman. However, in Corinthians paul talks about a man having his own wife (singular) and a woman having her own husband (singular).

Matthew, Mark both talk about man and woman, both singular, being one flesh. You cannot introduce a third party and still be one flesh, it doesn't work that way.

Genesis, God said that he will make man a helper, singular yet again.

In the OT, the men who had more than one wife, it always cause their down-fall. Look at Soloman, David, Jacob, and so on. It was never condoned or encouraged by God.

"men who had more than one wife, it always cause their down-fall" Oh, I seem to remember a few other causes unrelated to polygamy.

For David there was the whole thing with Bathsheba and not going off to war with his men, She only became his wife after sex and after David ensured Uriah's death in battle

Read 1 Kings 11 for Solomon's problems with YWHW - it wasn't because he had "seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines" but some other actions Solomon performed for his wives

Jacob, also named Israel, lived until he was 147 years old (according to your holy text) a confidant of the Pharoah and leader of those who had come with Joseph into Egypt - just what "downfall" did he experience?

The rest of your justifications rest upon fairly trembly foundations as well.

What about Jesus telling the disciples that self-castration is a good thing to do?

King James Matthew 19
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
 
Last edited:
-All from the NASB translation of the Bible.

I love these new translations, both this one and the New International Version, that basically exist just to justify arguments like these. Selectively edited to substantiate modern interpretations that are then claimed to be the clear and direct word of god. What rubbish! Even the King James version wouldn't substantiate this argument, and that one was just as edited and political as these current ones. Just complete nonsense. If you can't support it from the oldest and thus least edited version available, the your argument holds no water.

How does the bible suppot slavery did not the people who god saved from servitude weren't they slaves . Did Mosses not say let my people go .

Yeah, god said that Egyptians couldn't hold Hebrews as slaves. Then, when those Hebrews reconquered the area they claimed, they enslaved the people who lived there. The bible is fine with slavery, just not of your own kind of people. Race-based slavery, as practiced here in the United States, was completely supported by Christian theology and that theology was frequently invoked to justify it.

Their work consists of saying that because prominent people in the Bible had multiple wives that it negates the notion that marriage is for one man and one woman. However, in Corinthians paul talks about a man having his own wife (singular) and a woman having her own husband (singular).

Matthew, Mark both talk about man and woman, both singular, being one flesh. You cannot introduce a third party and still be one flesh, it doesn't work that way.

Because Roman law, which the writers of those texts lived under, outlawed polygamy. Hebrew (biblical) law was just fine with it.

Genesis, God said that he will make man a helper, singular yet again.

So what? God didn't create any children either, yet children aren't contrary to god's plan. There's nothing to support the idea that the initial state of creation was meant to be stagnant.

In the OT, the men who had more than one wife, it always cause their down-fall. Look at Soloman, David, Jacob, and so on. It was never condoned or encouraged by God.

This is entirely false. God supported all of the polygamous activities of the patriarchs. Jacob thrived with his multiple wives, never suffering any consequences because of polygamy. If anything, it was his lack of commitment to polygamy, favoring one wife and her sons over the others, that brought him down. Solomon's downfall was his greed, in succumbing to avarice and amassing wealth and wives, not that he had more than one wife. and David never came to ruin because of their wives. David, meanwhile, suffered for adultery, but not polygamy. You're just making things up.

Or, the civilizations were being purged of sin.

And genocide isn't a sin? How about that "do not murder" bit? Doesn't that conflict with raping and killing conquered civilians?
 
Your stat is inaccurate.


One study carried out in 1999 by an evangelical found otherwise
A study saying that born-again Christians divorce more often than non-Christians has raised eyebrows, sowed confusion, even brought on a little holy anger. So much, in fact, that the study's author, evangelical George Barna, put out a special letter to "our partners in ministry" trying to calm their fury and let his fellow believers know that he was standing by his stats no matter how distasteful they might be.

Definitions: People were classified as "born again" if they said they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is important in their life today and if they answered a multiple-choice question about life after death with "after I die I know I will go to heaven because I have confessed my sins and accepted Jesus Christ as my savior." People were classified as evangelical if they met nine theological criteria.

The Barna Research Group's national study showed that members of nondenominational churches divorce 34 percent of the time in contrast to 25 percent for the general population. Nondenominational churches would include large numbers of Bible churches and other conservative evangelicals. Baptists had the highest rate of the major denominations: 29 percent. Born-again Christians' rate was 27 percent. To make matters even more distressing for believers, atheists/agnostics had the lowest rate of divorce 21 percent.

more recent survey - Christians question divorce rates of faithful - USATODAY.com
 
Three Iowa academics who study the Bible wrote this piece, which was published on June 2, 2013

The following passage is the crux of the matter - in my opinion

Ok, that's an argument in favor of poligamy.

Now what? You support poligamy? Great. I have no real objection to poligamy.
 
Marriage is a legal institution, not a religious one, so what the bible says doesn't really matter.

Marriage is a social institution. The law reflects marriage, not found it.
 
Who said it was ok to turn an 8 year old girl into a sex slave? Citation?

All too easy.

Numbers 31: 7-18 :

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people." 3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling. 7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba--the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army--the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds--who returned from the battle. 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. 19

And this gem from the Law:

Exodus 21:7-11

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom