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Fair comparison?

Is it valid?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 30.0%
  • No

    Votes: 14 70.0%

  • Total voters
    20
Is it a valid comparison to compare Jesus to Mohammed? One being a desert warlord, the other a god?

No, the two were completely different. Their religious teachings and philosophies are incompatible, who they were and what purpose they served in their respective books were very different in charscter, teaching, and methodology. One can compare some of the teachings, but comparing one man to the other is not factually valid.
 
Wonderful, my favorate "proof text."

Lets look at the greek.

Kai ho logos en pros ton theon. (The word was with THE God)
Kai theos en ho logos. (god was the word), notice no definate article, god here is being used as a property NOT an identity.

Which is why many translations say "The word was divine."

It's obviously not identifying the word as the same God that it was with ... it's giving the word a property of divinity.

Infact when it has the lack of a definate article in other places in the bible, translations will put an indefinate article in front of it "a prophet" for example.

Actually, 'kai theos eyn ho logos' is correctly translated as 'and the word was God'. The phrase could equally have been 'kai theos ho logos', without the 'eyn', the imperfect 3rd person singular of 'eymi', the verb 'to be'. With the anarthrous noun being in the predicate position (a predicate nominative) and the arthrous noun as the subject nominative.

This is a common structure with or without the copulative verb. Word order does not affect this structure, as is so in Greek in general. Both nouns are nominative and the article indicates that that noun is the subject.

Compare 1 John 1:5, 'ho theos phohs estin', God is light'. It can also be noted that when both nouns, or neither noun, has the article, the two nouns are equivalent and interchangeable. See Matt. 16:16. There really are no mysteries on this. You can find it in any good Greek grammar.

Just a word of advice. Start with the Greek manuscript. Don't use your 'whatever' translation and then attempt to make the Greek agree with it (read, 'you'). :mrgreen:
 
Actually, 'kai theos eyn ho logos' is correctly translated as 'and the word was God'. The phrase could equally have been 'kai theos ho logos', without the 'eyn', the imperfect 3rd person singular of 'eymi', the verb 'to be'. With the anarthrous noun being in the predicate position (a predicate nominative) and the arthrous noun as the subject nominative.

This is a common structure with or without the copulative verb. Word order does not affect this structure, as is so in Greek in general. Both nouns are nominative and the article indicates that that noun is the subject.

Compare 1 John 1:5, 'ho theos phohs estin', God is light'. It can also be noted that when both nouns, or neither noun, has the article, the two nouns are equivalent and interchangeable. See Matt. 16:16. There really are no mysteries on this. You can find it in any good Greek grammar.

Just a word of advice. Start with the Greek manuscript. Don't use your 'whatever' translation and then attempt to make the Greek agree with it (read, 'you'). :mrgreen:

I'm using the NRSV, they translate it the word was god, so I AM starting with the greek for this argument.

Matthew 16:16 is "Christ the son of God," there is no ambiguity here, since theos can only mean the person, and the definate article is in front of Christ, The christ the son of God, it's a full title.

1 John 1:5 is the other way around, theos is the identity of the light.

Look at Mark 6:59 ... it's "a spirit" due to lacking the definiate article, smae with mark 11:32 with "a prophet," same with John 6:70 "a devil" (KJV), a devil as opposed to THE devil makes a huge difference there doesn't it? Because it lacks the definate article, and the context it is in it's translated a devil, and so on and so forth.

in John 1:1, In the begining was the word and word was with the god, and god was the was the word. When God can be used as an adjective OR a noun, in this case it's logical that it would be used as the former, had the indentity been the same it would have used the definate article in both cases, since god is used to describe the word, not the other way around.

Anthony Buzzard has another exegesis with this where he said the word isn't a person but a plan, and in Jesus the plan became flesh.
 
How many were prophesied by a prophet of God, as instructed by God?


Matthew 1

Joseph Accepts Jesus as His Son

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about[d]: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet[e] did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Yeah ... that doesn't change my argument, it doesn't identify Jesus with God, any more than other times in the OT when it was said "God is with us" did it mean he was literally physically there, it means that blessing was upon Israel.


Is Jesus' name "Immanuel" or "Jesus?" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Colossians 2:9 (KJV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Read on " and you have come to fullness in him" Does that mean we are also God?

the NRSV says "9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have come to fullness in him,"

BTW, I don't deny that Jesus was a godly person, more than man, I deny that he is identified as Yahweh.

Remember he the firstborn of all creation, and "the image" of God. (all from Colossians.)

Also you cannot ignore all the verses I posted showing subordination, and distinction from christ and God.
 
In Islam, Jesus is the Messiah, and a great prophet. But not a Son of God (whatever that means).

Mohammed is supposed to be the "last prophet". Not a messiah to Jews (obviously), and not a deity of any kind.

So, once again, what was the question?
 
Is it a valid comparison to compare Jesus to Mohammed? One being a desert warlord, the other a god?

Sure it's valid. Here we go:

Jesus: Son of God

Mohammed: Son of a Man

Jesus: Never married

Mohammed: Married his 6 year old niece and several other girls.

Jesus: Man of peace.

Mohammed: Conquering warlord.

Jesus: Died on the cross after asking God to forgive his persecutors.

Mohammed: Died an old man in his bed cursing the Christians and Jews.

Jesus: Prevented a woman from being stoned.

Mohammed: Commanded the stoning of women.

Jesus: Never owned a slave.

Mohammed: Owned lots of slaves.

Jesus: Taught his disciples to love their enemies and teach their faith with gentleness and respect.

Mohammed: Taught his disciples to kill, subjugate, and convert Christians and Jews.

Jesus: Said that God will judge apostates.

Mohammed: Killed apostates.
 
I'm using the NRSV, they translate it the word was god, so I AM starting with the greek for this argument.

Matthew 16:16 is "Christ the son of God," there is no ambiguity here, since theos can only mean the person, and the definate article is in front of Christ, The christ the son of God, it's a full title.

1 John 1:5 is the other way around, theos is the identity of the light.

Look at Mark 6:59 ... it's "a spirit" due to lacking the definiate article, smae with mark 11:32 with "a prophet," same with John 6:70 "a devil" (KJV), a devil as opposed to THE devil makes a huge difference there doesn't it? Because it lacks the definate article, and the context it is in it's translated a devil, and so on and so forth.

in John 1:1, In the begining was the word and word was with the god, and god was the was the word. When God can be used as an adjective OR a noun, in this case it's logical that it would be used as the former, had the indentity been the same it would have used the definate article in both cases, since god is used to describe the word, not the other way around.

Anthony Buzzard has another exegesis with this where he said the word isn't a person but a plan, and in Jesus the plan became flesh.


Matt.16:16, 'su eyi ho kristos, ho weeos too theou too zohntos', is properly translated, 'you are the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of the living God.' The pronoun 'su' is definitive, as are proper names, by definition. And 'kristos' is definitive with 'ho'. As I said, when both nouns, or neither noun, has the article [or are definitive by definition], the two nouns are equivalent and interchangeable. 'You are the Messiah' or 'The Messiah is you'. Idiomatic English trumps the latter.

In John 1:1, with the anarthrous noun being in the predicate position (a predicate nominative) and the arthrous noun as the subject nominative, the correct translation is 'And the word was God'. I'm not sure what you're on about, 'when God is an adjective'. 'God' is never an adjective in Greek or in English.

You clearly don't understand English grammar, let alone Greek. To make it worse, you're trying to transpose what little you know of English into Greek. Good luck.

The article is just one small, minor example. Without the article, a noun can usually be translated with the English, "a" or 'an', but it's not always so. Further, often words with the article in Greek are translated without 'the' in English, especially in the nominative and especially with abstract concepts like 'hey agapey', 'love', and 'ho theos', 'God'. In other words, the Greek article and the English article are very different.

BTW, that's 'definite,' not 'definate'.


"A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep or taste not the Pierian Spring;
Their shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again." [Pope, "Essay On Criticism"]


Who is Anthony Buzzard? Remember the false prophets. John MacArthur claims that Jesus redeemed us from the slavery of sin only to make us slaves of Himself. This based on translations - 'ho doulos' can be translated as either slave or servant. Being slaves probably has a greater significance on national television in a guilt ridden America.
 
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Matt.16:16, 'su eyi ho kristos, ho weeos too theou too zohntos', is properly translated, 'you are the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of the living God.' The pronoun 'su' is definitive, as are proper names, by definition. And 'kristos' is definitive with 'ho'. As I said, when both nouns, or neither noun, has the article [or are definitive by definition], the two nouns are equivalent and interchangeable. 'You are the Messiah' or 'The Messiah is you'. Idiomatic English trumps the latter.

In John 1:1, with the anarthrous noun being in the predicate position (a predicate nominative) and the arthrous noun as the subject nominative, the correct translation is 'And the word was God'. I'm not sure what you're on about, 'when God is an adjective'. 'God' is never an adjective in Greek or in English.

You clearly don't understand English grammar, let alone Greek. To make it worse, you're trying to transpose what little you know of English into Greek. Good luck.

The article is just one small, minor example. Without the article, a noun can usually be translated with the English, "a" or 'an', but it's not always so. Further, often words with the article in Greek are translated without 'the' in English, especially in the nominative and especially with abstract concepts like 'hey agapey', 'love', and 'ho theos', 'God'. In other words, the Greek article and the English article are very different.

Yes God can be an adjective in greek, it's translated divine .... or godlike, but in greek forms of theos are used, it's used that way a lot in the NT.

It's a predicate normative, meaning the "God" is describing the "word," it is NOT an identity, it's descriptive, that's what a predicate normative is, a word describing another word, in this sense without the definate article, "god" as opposed to the previous word "god" that includes the definate article, is discriptive, not identifying, the first and teh second theos are not describing the same thing, that's my point.

Who is Anthony Buzzard? Remember the false prophets. John MacArthur claims that Jesus redeemed us from the slavery of sin only to make us slaves of Himself. This based on translations - 'ho doulos' can be translated as either slave or servant. Being slaves probably has a greater significance on national television in a guilt ridden America.

Anthony Buzzard is a biblical scholar.
 
No, theos is never used as an adjective. And that would be 'predicate nominative'. Your point is misplaced; that is, you're wrong.

You may be confusing this with adjectives that are used as nouns (called substantives), like 'hoi makarioi' ('the blessed ones') from the adjective 'makarios, a, ov' meaning 'blessed', or 'ho poneyros' ('the evil one') from the adjective 'poneyros, a, ov' meaning 'evil', or maybe you're confusing the use of the possessive genitive such as '[tou] theou' (often the definite article is omitted) meaning 'of God' (cf. Matt. 5:9 'the sons of God [God's sons]' or Luke 2:40 'the grace of God [God's grace'). Also, a noun in English may sometimes be set in apposition to another noun, like 'the woman runner'. Likewise can nouns in the Greek nominative case be set appositionally, like 'Jesus, the carpenter' or 'John, the son of Zebedee', but it would be a stretch to call these cases 'adjectives'.

I guess I'm not really sure what you're confusing, but I am sure you're confused.

Anyway, the point is, in John 1:1, with the anarthrous noun being in the predicate position (a predicate nominative) and the arthrous noun as the subject nominative, the correct translation is 'And the word was God'. This is the predicate nominative construction and it recurs throughout the NT.

It just occurred to me that you might think that word order is significant. No. You could write 'ho logos eyn theos' or 'theos eyn ho logos'. Both translate as 'The Word was God'. Greek speakers may have used different order for different emphasis, but in an inflected language like Greek, the case and verbal endings determine the meaning, not word order. With the predicate nominative construction, the construction under discussion here, the nominative noun with the article is the subject and the one without is the predicate, irrespective of the order. If both nouns, or neither, has the article, different rules apply. Period. That's the way it is. Like English, Greek is loaded with idiomatic constructions that are directed by rules and conventions. They may not be to your liking, they may not translate to accommodate preconceived notions of what they mean, but they mean what the Greek manuscripts indicate they mean. If you believe the scriptures, it is in the Greek that the truth lies. If you don't believe, well, have a nice day.:)

As for Anthony Buzzard, I can see why you're a fan (wiki). Consulting Buzzard about the Trinity would be like consulting Dawkins about the existence of God. I'm sure you find Tony re-assuring. However, his work would be better described as 'subjective eisegesis' (redundancy deliberate). "Buzzard left the Worldwide Church of God and later published his own theological views refuting Herbert Armstrong's theology" (wiki). Well-meaning theological reformers, with their own 'theological' views, as well as charlatans, can be a disaster, but most often they just provide more unsubstantiated nonsense that sincere truth-seekers are challenged to filter out. Remember the warnings against false prophets.
 
Is it a valid comparison to compare Jesus to Mohammed? One being a desert warlord, the other a god?

Yes. Both are founders of a major monotheist religion and both are considered the central messengers of a divine message by the respective followers of these religions (even if Christians go further and even say Jesus Christ was God's son too).

So making a comparison makes sense. That doesn't mean that you won't find differences between the two, of course.

Some prophets were not just divine messengers, but worldly leaders at the same time -- like Abraham, Moses, David, Salomon and Mohammed. Others were "only" prophets without worldly power, usually even heavily persecuted by the wordly authorities, like Jesus Christ or Baha'u'llah.

As a consequence, their respective revelations differ in some regards, depending on the needs of the time -- you need different rules for an armed populace you're defending against its enemies with the sword, than for a group of subversives persecuted by the government.
 
Is it a valid comparison to compare Jesus to Mohammed? One being a desert warlord, the other a god?

It kind of depends to what end you are comparing them. If it's about a 'my god's better than your god' theological dick-measuring contest then it's a pretty stupid thing to get into. Thinking about it, I can bring any reason to mind for wanting to do a comparison.
 
IMO no one can be compared to Jesus Christ. No one comes close to him in any aspect of life.
 
To what end, GG? Why would you want to perform the comparison? What would be the thesis of your research?

Simply scientific curiosity? It's interesting to see where there are similarities and differences between two similar figures founding religions.
 
Simply scientific curiosity? It's interesting to see where there are similarities and differences between two similar figures founding religions.
And you apply 'scientific' research methods to this subject area how?

Given that one is claimed to be a human prophet and the other God himself, I'd say the apparent similarities are probably inconsequential in the light of this very fundamental difference.

Why don't we create a thread to compare all the figureheads of the the world's religions? You could use an Excel spreadsheet with columns like, Is s/he a god? Is s/he infallible? Is s/he sinless? Does s/he personally intervene in a follower's life? How many killed in his/her name (rough estimate)? Did s/he advocate: brotherly love? righteous violence? eternal damnation for the non-believer? etc etc. Then we could assign values to each question and score them out of a hundred. Then we could find out which is the real deal. No one would have any reason to believe in the losing prophet/deity and conflict between religions would end forever.
 
I'm not sure, but I think they came for different purposes.
 
No, theos is never used as an adjective. And that would be 'predicate nominative'. Your point is misplaced; that is, you're wrong.

You may be confusing this with adjectives that are used as nouns (called substantives), like 'hoi makarioi' ('the blessed ones') from the adjective 'makarios, a, ov' meaning 'blessed', or 'ho poneyros' ('the evil one') from the adjective 'poneyros, a, ov' meaning 'evil', or maybe you're confusing the use of the possessive genitive such as '[tou] theou' (often the definite article is omitted) meaning 'of God' (cf. Matt. 5:9 'the sons of God [God's sons]' or Luke 2:40 'the grace of God [God's grace'). Also, a noun in English may sometimes be set in apposition to another noun, like 'the woman runner'. Likewise can nouns in the Greek nominative case be set appositionally, like 'Jesus, the carpenter' or 'John, the son of Zebedee', but it would be a stretch to call these cases 'adjectives'.

I guess I'm not really sure what you're confusing, but I am sure you're confused.

2 Peter 1:3,4, Colossians 2:9, Acts 17:29 all use theos as an adjective, either translated divine, or Godly.

So take 2 Peter 1:3,4 it's first "divine power" or "divine partakers," it's a property of the power or the partakers.

Anyway, the point is, in John 1:1, with the anarthrous noun being in the predicate position (a predicate nominative) and the arthrous noun as the subject nominative, the correct translation is 'And the word was God'. This is the predicate nominative construction and it recurs throughout the NT.

It just occurred to me that you might think that word order is significant. No. You could write 'ho logos eyn theos' or 'theos eyn ho logos'. Both translate as 'The Word was God'. Greek speakers may have used different order for different emphasis, but in an inflected language like Greek, the case and verbal endings determine the meaning, not word order. With the predicate nominative construction, the construction under discussion here, the nominative noun with the article is the subject and the one without is the predicate, irrespective of the order. If both nouns, or neither, has the article, different rules apply. Period. That's the way it is. Like English, Greek is loaded with idiomatic constructions that are directed by rules and conventions. They may not be to your liking, they may not translate to accommodate preconceived notions of what they mean, but they mean what the Greek manuscripts indicate they mean. If you believe the scriptures, it is in the Greek that the truth lies. If you don't believe, well, have a nice day.:)

I'ts not the wrod order I'm talking about, its the use of the definate article on the first theos and none on the second, which would differentiate the 2, on the second. Logos has the definate article both times, theos only has it once. that is significant.

So in the begining was THE word, and THE word was with THE god, and god was THE word.

Had the first use of "god" been identified with the second "THE" would be included, both times. Now of coarse it can be translated "the word was God," "the word was a God," or "The word was divine," and they would all be correct, but if you pick the former you're making an assumption, and the assumption is the second use of theos dispite having a lack of a definate article that is used on the other Theos and both uses of Logos, is identified with the first use of Theos .... That makes the sentance not make sense (one cannot be with something and be something at the same time), but that would simply be an assumption, the lack of a definate article on THAT one use of theos however is significant.

I get that it's a predicate nominative, that isn't my point, my point is that it's distinguishing itself from the first theos by leaving out the definate article the second time.

As for Anthony Buzzard, I can see why you're a fan (wiki). Consulting Buzzard about the Trinity would be like consulting Dawkins about the existence of God. I'm sure you find Tony re-assuring. However, his work would be better described as 'subjective eisegesis' (redundancy deliberate). "Buzzard left the Worldwide Church of God and later published his own theological views refuting Herbert Armstrong's theology" (wiki). Well-meaning theological reformers, with their own 'theological' views, as well as charlatans, can be a disaster, but most often they just provide more unsubstantiated nonsense that sincere truth-seekers are challenged to filter out. Remember the warnings against false prophets.

If you're going to just dissmiss theologians or scholars apriori because they don't agree with you, your not being honest.
 
In 2 Peter 1:3,4, the word used is not '[ho] theos'. It is the adjective 'theios, a, ov', (note the iota - this is not a spelling mistake :)) which means 'divine'. This is not using the noun as an adjective, it's using an adjective, which has the same root as the noun, as an adjective.

Verse 3', '...teys theios dunameohs autou...' translates 'the divine power of Him', or better, 'His divine power'. Verse 4 similarly uses 'theias', an adjective, as an adjective, '...geneysthe (future) theias (divine) koinohnoi (partakers) phuseyohs (nature, fem. 3rd decl)', translated in the KJV as, '["by these promises" referred to in v.4a], ye might be partakers of the divine nature'.

Acts 17:29 again uses the adjective 'theios', but here uses it as a substantive, '...toh theion eivai homoion...' which is translated variously as 'the Godhead' or 'the Trinity' This is the same as the substantives, adjectives used as nouns, not nouns used as adjectives, I described in a previous post, like 'the blessed ones' or 'the evil one', or as here, 'the divine one'.

Col. 2:9 is a beautiful verse. 'hoti en autoh katoikei pan toh pleyrohma teys theoteytos sohmatikohs', 'Because in Him (referring of course to Jesus from verse 8) dwells bodily all the fullness of the Godhead (I prefer 'God' here, or at least 'Deity', but the proper translation of 'hey theoteys, theoteytos', a 3rd. decl. feminine noun, is 'deity or Godhead'. So this is a case of a noun being used as a noun, here in the possessive genitive case, 'God's fullness'. As far as I can see, this verse doesn't use 'theos' at all, let alone 'theos' translated adjectively as 'divine' or 'godly'.

Now, as for your misunderstanding of the use of the article, I'll give it one more (brief) shot but I really can't spend so much time on this, especially when you don't seem prepared to listen. Do you think I'm making up these grammatical rules just to confound you? I'm new to koine Greek myself and consider myself just beyond the basics after over two years of (self-)study. You display no real knowledge of Greek at all - I suspect you're just grabbing from the internet or from translations promoting your particular flavour of 'theology'. Anyway, that's your business.

John 1:1 has two occurrences of the noun 'theos'. The first is in the accusative case and uses the article. It follows the preposition 'pros'. When 'pros' is followed by the accusative, it means 'with (or "to, toward")'.

Nouns in Greek usually are preceded by the definite article, unless the indefinite is clearly intended - that's the default, so to speak. Of course, there are many exceptions. Also, in many cases, especially with conceptual, more abstract ideas, the article is not translated into English. For example, as I said before, 'hey agapey' is translated almost always as 'love', not 'the love'. The noun 'ho theos' is the same. It is almost always translated as 'God', not 'the God.' Such is the case with the 'ton theon' of line 1, so it's properly translated as 'with God' not 'with the God' which would be poor English idiom by any standard. Remember, context is all important to arrive at a proper translation - no matter what your particular brand of theology, I think it's fair to assume that John would not be referring to 'a' god amongst others. When the context suggests that the article makes more sense, such as 'the God of our fathers is with us' or 'the love He gives us is true', a good translation would use it. Common sense should prevail for translations in order to achieve a proper rendering into idiomatic English that also properly conveys the scriptural (Greek) intention.

Anyway, understanding the Greek to arrive at the best interpretation is harder. The main exceptions to the above rule are when a specific construction is intended, such as the predicate nominative we've been talking about. That's the case and construction involved with the second 'theos' in this verse. As I described at length in previous posts, the noun without the article (theos) in this construction is the predicate nominative, the noun with the article (ho logos) is the subject nominative. That's the rule. If 'theos' had the article and 'logos' no article, it would be properly translated 'And God was the word'. If both, or neither, had the article, it could be translated either 'And God was the word' or 'And the word was God'. The fact is, as the Greek indicates, the correct translation into idiomatic English, no matter what your particular theological bent, is 'And the word was God'. That's the way it is - Greek language studies, just like theology, have a history upon which we base our current work. It's commonly known as 'Don't re-invent the wheel' unless you've got a better design.

For the sake of completeness, I'll remind you that the word order has no effect - in fact the copulative verb need not even be present, although it seems to me it usually is when two nouns are involved as opposed to a noun and an adjective (eg. 'ho logos kalos', 'kalos ho logos', 'kalos estiv ho logos' and 'kalos ho logos estiv' all mean 'the word is beautiful').

Just as an aside, moving the article to directly in front of the adjective as in 'ho logos ho kalos' (yes, there are two articles on this attributive mode when the adjective follows the noun - rules, rules, rules!), or as in 'ho kalos logos', changes things. The adjective is now in the attributive position and would be translated as 'the beautiful word'.

So, I hope you appreciate that the lack of the article on the second 'theos' is significant, but not for the reasons you imagine. The writer is not trying to distinguish the God of the first 'theos' from the God of the second 'theos'. With a wink and a nod to Gertrude Stein, to John, 'his God is his God is his God'.

Quickly, concerning Buzzard. There are only so many hours in the week and there are so many books (theories, subjects, articles, references, etc.) to consider, study and critique, and that all over and above the scriptures, which are, or at least could be, full time. My theology and beliefs are far beyond the questioning of basic Christianity. I don't believe things on the basis of personal subjective opinion. I've already considered the truth of scriptures, the existence of God, the deity of Christ and the Trinity. That's not to say I think I've nothing more to learn. Not at all. I just want to make the best use of my time.

I've heard the theologies of many including Unitarians. Those who don't believe in the deity of Christ are, by definition, not Christian, and therefore, in spiritual trouble. Those who waffle about it need the help of Jesus, and my help if they want it to find Him. I don't need their help. Jesus Christ is all the help I need.

I hope that's honest enough for you :)
 
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Is it a valid comparison to compare Jesus to Mohammed? One being a desert warlord, the other a god?

I voted no. There are definitely some similarities but when it comes down too it and regardless of whether or not one believes Jesus to be God or a God or a normal human being you still have a man of war vs. a man of peace. It's a very big distinction between the two.
 
In 2 Peter 1:3,4, the word used is not '[ho] theos'. It is the adjective 'theios, a, ov', (note the iota - this is not a spelling mistake :)) which means 'divine'. This is not using the noun as an adjective, it's using an adjective, which has the same root as the noun, as an adjective.

Verse 3', '...teys theios dunameohs autou...' translates 'the divine power of Him', or better, 'His divine power'. Verse 4 similarly uses 'theias', an adjective, as an adjective, '...geneysthe (future) theias (divine) koinohnoi (partakers) phuseyohs (nature, fem. 3rd decl)', translated in the KJV as, '["by these promises" referred to in v.4a], ye might be partakers of the divine nature'.

Acts 17:29 again uses the adjective 'theios', but here uses it as a substantive, '...toh theion eivai homoion...' which is translated variously as 'the Godhead' or 'the Trinity' This is the same as the substantives, adjectives used as nouns, not nouns used as adjectives, I described in a previous post, like 'the blessed ones' or 'the evil one', or as here, 'the divine one'.

Col. 2:9 is a beautiful verse. 'hoti en autoh katoikei pan toh pleyrohma teys theoteytos sohmatikohs', 'Because in Him (referring of course to Jesus from verse 8) dwells bodily all the fullness of the Godhead (I prefer 'God' here, or at least 'Deity', but the proper translation of 'hey theoteys, theoteytos', a 3rd. decl. feminine noun, is 'deity or Godhead'. So this is a case of a noun being used as a noun, here in the possessive genitive case, 'God's fullness'. As far as I can see, this verse doesn't use 'theos' at all, let alone 'theos' translated adjectively as 'divine' or 'godly'.

Now, as for your misunderstanding of the use of the article, I'll give it one more (brief) shot but I really can't spend so much time on this, especially when you don't seem prepared to listen. Do you think I'm making up these grammatical rules just to confound you? I'm new to koine Greek myself and consider myself just beyond the basics after over two years of (self-)study. You display no real knowledge of Greek at all - I suspect you're just grabbing from the internet or from translations promoting your particular flavour of 'theology'. Anyway, that's your business.

John 1:1 has two occurrences of the noun 'theos'. The first is in the accusative case and uses the article. It follows the preposition 'pros'. When 'pros' is followed by the accusative, it means 'with (or "to, toward")'.

Nouns in Greek usually are preceded by the definite article, unless the indefinite is clearly intended - that's the default, so to speak. Of course, there are many exceptions. Also, in many cases, especially with conceptual, more abstract ideas, the article is not translated into English. For example, as I said before, 'hey agapey' is translated almost always as 'love', not 'the love'. The noun 'ho theos' is the same. It is almost always translated as 'God', not 'the God.' Such is the case with the 'ton theon' of line 1, so it's properly translated as 'with God' not 'with the God' which would be poor English idiom by any standard. Remember, context is all important to arrive at a proper translation - no matter what your particular brand of theology, I think it's fair to assume that John would not be referring to 'a' god amongst others. When the context suggests that the article makes more sense, such as 'the God of our fathers is with us' or 'the love He gives us is true', a good translation would use it. Common sense should prevail for translations in order to achieve a proper rendering into idiomatic English that also properly conveys the scriptural (Greek) intention.

Anyway, understanding the Greek to arrive at the best interpretation is harder. The main exceptions to the above rule are when a specific construction is intended, such as the predicate nominative we've been talking about. That's the case and construction involved with the second 'theos' in this verse. As I described at length in previous posts, the noun without the article (theos) in this construction is the predicate nominative, the noun with the article (ho logos) is the subject nominative. That's the rule. If 'theos' had the article and 'logos' no article, it would be properly translated 'And God was the word'. If both, or neither, had the article, it could be translated either 'And God was the word' or 'And the word was God'. The fact is, as the Greek indicates, the correct translation into idiomatic English, no matter what your particular theological bent, is 'And the word was God'. That's the way it is - Greek language studies, just like theology, have a history upon which we base our current work. It's commonly known as 'Don't re-invent the wheel' unless you've got a better design.

For the sake of completeness, I'll remind you that the word order has no effect - in fact the copulative verb need not even be present, although it seems to me it usually is when two nouns are involved as opposed to a noun and an adjective (eg. 'ho logos kalos', 'kalos ho logos', 'kalos estiv ho logos' and 'kalos ho logos estiv' all mean 'the word is beautiful').

Just as an aside, moving the article to directly in front of the adjective as in 'ho logos ho kalos' (yes, there are two articles on this attributive mode when the adjective follows the noun - rules, rules, rules!), or as in 'ho kalos logos', changes things. The adjective is now in the attributive position and would be translated as 'the beautiful word'.

So, I hope you appreciate that the lack of the article on the second 'theos' is significant, but not for the reasons you imagine. The writer is not trying to distinguish the God of the first 'theos' from the God of the second 'theos'. With a wink and a nod to Gertrude Stein, to John, 'his God is his God is his God'.

Quickly, concerning Buzzard. There are only so many hours in the week and there are so many books (theories, subjects, articles, references, etc.) to consider, study and critique, and that all over and above the scriptures, which are, or at least could be, full time. My theology and beliefs are far beyond the questioning of basic Christianity. I don't believe things on the basis of personal subjective opinion. I've already considered the truth of scriptures, the existence of God, the deity of Christ and the Trinity. That's not to say I think I've nothing more to learn. Not at all. I just want to make the best use of my time.

I've heard the theologies of many including Unitarians. Those who don't believe in the deity of Christ are, by definition, not Christian, and therefore, in spiritual trouble. Those who waffle about it need the help of Jesus, and my help if they want it to find Him. I don't need their help. Jesus Christ is all the help I need.

I hope that's honest enough for you :)

That was my husband. He couldn't help but respond when he read your interpretation of Greek grammar.
 
In 2 Peter 1:3,4, the word used is not '[ho] theos'. It is the adjective 'theios, a, ov', (note the iota - this is not a spelling mistake :)) which means 'divine'. This is not using the noun as an adjective, it's using an adjective, which has the same root as the noun, as an adjective.

Verse 3', '...teys theios dunameohs autou...' translates 'the divine power of Him', or better, 'His divine power'. Verse 4 similarly uses 'theias', an adjective, as an adjective, '...geneysthe (future) theias (divine) koinohnoi (partakers) phuseyohs (nature, fem. 3rd decl)', translated in the KJV as, '["by these promises" referred to in v.4a], ye might be partakers of the divine nature'.

Acts 17:29 again uses the adjective 'theios', but here uses it as a substantive, '...toh theion eivai homoion...' which is translated variously as 'the Godhead' or 'the Trinity' This is the same as the substantives, adjectives used as nouns, not nouns used as adjectives, I described in a previous post, like 'the blessed ones' or 'the evil one', or as here, 'the divine one'.

Col. 2:9 is a beautiful verse. 'hoti en autoh katoikei pan toh pleyrohma teys theoteytos sohmatikohs', 'Because in Him (referring of course to Jesus from verse 8) dwells bodily all the fullness of the Godhead (I prefer 'God' here, or at least 'Deity', but the proper translation of 'hey theoteys, theoteytos', a 3rd. decl. feminine noun, is 'deity or Godhead'. So this is a case of a noun being used as a noun, here in the possessive genitive case, 'God's fullness'. As far as I can see, this verse doesn't use 'theos' at all, let alone 'theos' translated adjectively as 'divine' or 'godly'.

Now, as for your misunderstanding of the use of the article, I'll give it one more (brief) shot but I really can't spend so much time on this, especially when you don't seem prepared to listen. Do you think I'm making up these grammatical rules just to confound you? I'm new to koine Greek myself and consider myself just beyond the basics after over two years of (self-)study. You display no real knowledge of Greek at all - I suspect you're just grabbing from the internet or from translations promoting your particular flavour of 'theology'. Anyway, that's your business.

John 1:1 has two occurrences of the noun 'theos'. The first is in the accusative case and uses the article. It follows the preposition 'pros'. When 'pros' is followed by the accusative, it means 'with (or "to, toward")'.

Nouns in Greek usually are preceded by the definite article, unless the indefinite is clearly intended - that's the default, so to speak. Of course, there are many exceptions. Also, in many cases, especially with conceptual, more abstract ideas, the article is not translated into English. For example, as I said before, 'hey agapey' is translated almost always as 'love', not 'the love'. The noun 'ho theos' is the same. It is almost always translated as 'God', not 'the God.' Such is the case with the 'ton theon' of line 1, so it's properly translated as 'with God' not 'with the God' which would be poor English idiom by any standard. Remember, context is all important to arrive at a proper translation - no matter what your particular brand of theology, I think it's fair to assume that John would not be referring to 'a' god amongst others. When the context suggests that the article makes more sense, such as 'the God of our fathers is with us' or 'the love He gives us is true', a good translation would use it. Common sense should prevail for translations in order to achieve a proper rendering into idiomatic English that also properly conveys the scriptural (Greek) intention.

Anyway, understanding the Greek to arrive at the best interpretation is harder. The main exceptions to the above rule are when a specific construction is intended, such as the predicate nominative we've been talking about. That's the case and construction involved with the second 'theos' in this verse. As I described at length in previous posts, the noun without the article (theos) in this construction is the predicate nominative, the noun with the article (ho logos) is the subject nominative. That's the rule. If 'theos' had the article and 'logos' no article, it would be properly translated 'And God was the word'. If both, or neither, had the article, it could be translated either 'And God was the word' or 'And the word was God'. The fact is, as the Greek indicates, the correct translation into idiomatic English, no matter what your particular theological bent, is 'And the word was God'. That's the way it is - Greek language studies, just like theology, have a history upon which we base our current work. It's commonly known as 'Don't re-invent the wheel' unless you've got a better design.

For the sake of completeness, I'll remind you that the word order has no effect - in fact the copulative verb need not even be present, although it seems to me it usually is when two nouns are involved as opposed to a noun and an adjective (eg. 'ho logos kalos', 'kalos ho logos', 'kalos estiv ho logos' and 'kalos ho logos estiv' all mean 'the word is beautiful').

Just as an aside, moving the article to directly in front of the adjective as in 'ho logos ho kalos' (yes, there are two articles on this attributive mode when the adjective follows the noun - rules, rules, rules!), or as in 'ho kalos logos', changes things. The adjective is now in the attributive position and would be translated as 'the beautiful word'.

So, I hope you appreciate that the lack of the article on the second 'theos' is significant, but not for the reasons you imagine. The writer is not trying to distinguish the God of the first 'theos' from the God of the second 'theos'. With a wink and a nod to Gertrude Stein, to John, 'his God is his God is his God'.

Quickly, concerning Buzzard. There are only so many hours in the week and there are so many books (theories, subjects, articles, references, etc.) to consider, study and critique, and that all over and above the scriptures, which are, or at least could be, full time. My theology and beliefs are far beyond the questioning of basic Christianity. I don't believe things on the basis of personal subjective opinion. I've already considered the truth of scriptures, the existence of God, the deity of Christ and the Trinity. That's not to say I think I've nothing more to learn. Not at all. I just want to make the best use of my time.

I've heard the theologies of many including Unitarians. Those who don't believe in the deity of Christ are, by definition, not Christian, and therefore, in spiritual trouble. Those who waffle about it need the help of Jesus, and my help if they want it to find Him. I don't need their help. Jesus Christ is all the help I need.

I hope that's honest enough for you :)

See, that's my point, "hey agapey" is translated as just love, but I having the difinate article there the first time, and not the second time is meaningful, had the second theos been identified with the first theos the definate article would have been there TWICE, that's my point, but it isn't, even though it IS for the logos.

(Btw, never argued that the word order has any effect)

Now you're saying it should be due to the context of Johns theology, although that isn't the case at all, infact when questioned about making himself God he responded ... " “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? " .... CLEARLY showing he wasn't calling himself the ONLY TRUE GOD (John 17:3), who only is the father, but also that "god" can be used for people other than the only true God Yahweh.

So thats the point, translating the second theos as "God" rather than "a god" or "divine" or something like that, implying that the first theos and the second are the same, is not a translation issue, it's a theological issue.

As far as just saying those that deny the deity of christ are by definition not christian ... that's not scriptural, that's doctrinal, the only reason I brought up Anthony Buzzard was his argument that Jesus was begotted (i.e. came into being) in the virgin birth. I mean I could argue that those who deny the shama, the Unitarian confession of Jesus, are not christian, but that isn't an argument.
 
So, I say again, I hope you do appreciate that the lack of the article on the second 'theos' is significant, but not for the reasons you imagine. The writer is not trying to distinguish the God of the first 'theos' from the God of the second 'theos', namely because it is the same God. John is saying exactly what the Greek says, "And the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

"See, that's my point..." appears several times in your post but the point is never clear. The only point I get from you is that your Greek grammar, like the theology you're attempting to impose on it ("...not a translation issue, it's a theological issue..."), is terribly muddled.

Further to which, you say, "Now you're saying it should be due to the context of Johns theology..." Actually, no, I said nothing about the context of John's theology. The Greek, which uses the common and well-defined predicate nominative, is the clear context and all we need. "The Word was God." Word = God. That's scripture and the basis for the doctrine = theology. That is what the writer says. The Greek writer and what he writes establishes the theology. The context is the Greek as written, not only in this verse, of course, but in the whole chapter and Gospel. You don't need to know John's theology before you read his Gospel, but if you read his Gospel, you'll learn his theology - that is, if you have ears to hear and eyes to see. Naturally, neither do you need to abandon your knowledge of John's theology if it will help in interpretation - after all these two verses are not all we know about John, and certainly are not all we know about Christianity.

"Btw, never argued that the word order has any effect". I was trying to help you. There has to be some reason you don't get it.:) Actually I think you did mention word order earlier but as long as you know...

"So thats the point, translating the second theos as "God" rather than "a god" or "divine" or something like that, implying that the first theos and the second are the same, is not a translation issue, it's a theological issue". I think you make my point here. You're desperately trying to make the translation fit your preconceived notion of Christianity instead of using the Greek properly translated by the standards, of what is now a very advanced level of knowledge of koine Greek, as used by, in this case, John, to determine theology. As I said before, "the fact is, as the Greek indicates, the correct translation into idiomatic English, no matter what your particular theological bent, is 'And the word was God'. That's the way it is - Greek language studies, just like theology, have a history upon which we base our current work. It's commonly known as 'Don't re-invent the wheel' unless you've got a better design".

"... that's not scriptural, that's doctrinal" What does that mean? Do you imagine Christian doctrine sprung up at a meeting of the guys over pretzels and beer? That's one long party - 2000 years! And that's without counting the 2000 years of Hebrew Scriptures. Since the Resurrection Christians have been studying, learning and praying to determine the deep significance of God's entry into time and space to bring us the message of our Salvation. The Scriptures are our primary source. The same Word that was with God in the beginning (e.g. John 1:1-5 and John 17:5, 11) was incarnated by Mary's virgin birth. Begotten, not made. That is, brought into being by the divine incarnation, not by natural birth. You may belief this, you may not...but that's what the Scriptures say and that's what Christian belief is based on. If you don't believe essential Christian theology, (such as the deity of Christ) you're not a Christian. One defines the other. Surely that's not hard to understand.
 
As a non-believer looking in on both religions, they're actually strikingly similar. They may have had a few different methods, but the end effect on the religion was the same.

As a non-believer I actually disagree. I think one of the principle differences is that both Mohammed and Moses for example came as law-givers, they delivered a divine code that was meant to holistically encompass all aspects of life from social mores to government. The messianic possibilities were more tangential to their primary purpose which was to order their respective societies and prepare their people for a future of religious and moral 'good'.

Christ on the other hand was utterly messianic and instead of delivering laws served as a vehicle for abrogating the need to adhere to most of the Mosaic code. The emphasis on spirituality, mysticism, and eschatology is far, far, far greater with him than with the other two. It also underlines the fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam/Judaism. Christianity more or less lacks an encompassing dogma and legalism that characterize Islam and Judaism (in their traditional forms) and this is very much because of the nature of Christ.
 
So, I say again, I hope you do appreciate that the lack of the article on the second 'theos' is significant, but not for the reasons you imagine. The writer is not trying to distinguish the God of the first 'theos' from the God of the second 'theos', namely because it is the same God. John is saying exactly what the Greek says, "And the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Why is it the same God? What's the evidence for that assertion?

Everything points against it, one being metaphysical (You can't be with someone and be someone at the same time), and the fact that the first theos has a definate article and the second does not.

So why do you say that it's the same?

Further to which, you say, "Now you're saying it should be due to the context of Johns theology..." Actually, no, I said nothing about the context of John's theology. The Greek, which uses the common and well-defined predicate nominative, is the clear context and all we need. "The Word was God." Word = God. That's scripture and the basis for the doctrine = theology. That is what the writer says. The Greek writer and what he writes establishes the theology. The context is the Greek as written, not only in this verse, of course, but in the whole chapter and Gospel. You don't need to know John's theology before you read his Gospel, but if you read his Gospel, you'll learn his theology - that is, if you have ears to hear and eyes to see. Naturally, neither do you need to abandon your knowledge of John's theology if it will help in interpretation - after all these two verses are not all we know about John, and certainly are not all we know about Christianity.

yes you did, you said

"Remember, context is all important to arrive at a proper translation - no matter what your particular brand of theology, I think it's fair to assume that John would not be referring to 'a' god amongst others."

That's a theological assumption, which isn't justified given Johns later use of "god" in describing regular people.

so "god" isn't always used to refer to yahweh, so the question of what the second theos is refering to is open.

"So thats the point, translating the second theos as "God" rather than "a god" or "divine" or something like that, implying that the first theos and the second are the same, is not a translation issue, it's a theological issue". I think you make my point here. You're desperately trying to make the translation fit your preconceived notion of Christianity instead of using the Greek properly translated by the standards, of what is now a very advanced level of knowledge of koine Greek, as used by, in this case, John, to determine theology. As I said before, "the fact is, as the Greek indicates, the correct translation into idiomatic English, no matter what your particular theological bent, is 'And the word was God'. That's the way it is - Greek language studies, just like theology, have a history upon which we base our current work. It's commonly known as 'Don't re-invent the wheel' unless you've got a better design".

btw, why do you Capitalize the word "God" there, but when he says "Is it not written you are gods" its not Capitalized? Again, transliteration is not the same as translation, it could be translated as "a god" or "God" with equal weight, the desicion to translate as the latter is a theological choice.

"... that's not scriptural, that's doctrinal" What does that mean? Do you imagine Christian doctrine sprung up at a meeting of the guys over pretzels and beer? That's one long party - 2000 years! And that's without counting the 2000 years of Hebrew Scriptures. Since the Resurrection Christians have been studying, learning and praying to determine the deep significance of God's entry into time and space to bring us the message of our Salvation. The Scriptures are our primary source. The same Word that was with God in the beginning (e.g. John 1:1-5 and John 17:5, 11) was incarnated by Mary's virgin birth. Begotten, not made. That is, brought into being by the divine incarnation, not by natural birth. You may belief this, you may not...but that's what the Scriptures say and that's what Christian belief is based on. If you don't believe essential Christian theology, (such as the deity of Christ) you're not a Christian. One defines the other. Surely that's not hard to understand.

My argumetn is that the scriptures do NOT support the idea that Jesus is identified as Yahweh, that being true I would be believing what Jeus believed and what the first apostles believed ....
 
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