From CNN : America losing its religion

Poll: America losing its religion – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs <-- clicky

Washington (CNN) - More than three in four of Americans say religion is losing its influence in the United States, according to a new survey, the highest such percentage in more than 40 years. A nearly identical percentage says that trend bodes ill for the country.

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According to the Gallup survey released Wednesday, 77% of Americans say religion is losing its influence. Since 1957, when the question was first asked, Americans' perception of religion's power has never been lower.

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According to the poll, 75% of Americans said it the country would be better off if it was more religious.

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Not sure whether to laugh or not over this article. Seems so pointless and silly in many ways.

They polled church goers and found that those people think we'd be better off as a country if more people went to church????? How shocking. :roll:

There was no mention of which religion these people polled think we should all "flock" to either.

Would we be better off as a country if everybody moved towards Hinduism?

I don't understand what your point is here?

Can you clerify?

I beleive religion overall is a net gain for society.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T7UuQe6z60

RGacky3 said:

I don't understand what your point is here?

Can you clerify?

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The USofA, for a "westernized country" is highly religious.

Yet the poll finds we're "losing religion"?

So it's religious people who are losing religion, yet they're the ones who think we'd be better off as a country if the country had more religion?

It's just funny in it's circular strangeness. Isn't it?

mak2 said:

I beleive religion overall is a net gain for society.

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Can you explain why?

Dragonfly said:

The USofA, for a "westernized country" is highly religious.

Yet the poll finds we're "losing religion"?

So it's religious people who are losing religion, yet they're the ones who think we'd be better off as a country if the country had more religion?

It's just funny in it's circular strangeness. Isn't it?

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I don't think so, I think many religious people are losing religion, yet the ones that remain, which are many, think we'd be better of with more religion, I don't think it's paradoxical at all really.

Yes, I am a Christian and dont belive all evil comes from the Church, in fact, almost all of it good. To me if we could more emulate Jesus in our daily lives our would woudl be a much, much better place. I dont think people who start wars or crusades are acting in a Christian way. I could go on for pages but I am at work and dont have a lot of time. I also beleive all the major religions have a positive effect on their society.

csbrown28 said:

Can you explain why?

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Dragonfly said:

Poll: America losing its religion – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs <-- clicky










Not sure whether to laugh or not over this article. Seems so pointless and silly in many ways.

They polled church goers and found that those people think we'd be better off as a country if more people went to church????? How shocking. :roll:

There was no mention of which religion these people polled think we should all "flock" to either.

Would we be better off as a country if everybody moved towards Hinduism?

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Given it is the US, I would say that Christianity would be that religion, generally an answer so obvious that it would go without saying. If it were say Indonesia, I would say it was Islam

It's called the Great Falling Away, in Biblical scripture

“Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,” 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

The "Falling Away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

mak2 said:

I beleive religion overall is a net gain for society.

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I would go beyond that, even to make a point that societies need religion, and if they didn't, it would never have existied in the first place. As many faults as there may be in religion, it fills a crucial role in the lives of a good number of people. People are going to place their trust in something greater than themselves, and I'd much rather it be God than an individual, or set of individual humans.

Church seems corrupt if people have a religion they should experience it in their own way

Can we please separate the positive things that most people associate with religion from religion, please?

Yes, there are actions that religions people do and take that are a net benefit for society, but religion as an institution isn't necessary to have those things.

57% of people in the US think that you MUST believe in god to be a moral person, with other western nations like Canada, Briton France and Sweden at 30, 22, 17 and 10% respectivly.
Pew Forum: Being Good for Goodness' Sake?

How infantile a race are we when we believe;

That there was a global flood and Noah took 2 of every animal on a boat for 40 days
Most Americans take Bible stories literally - Washington Times

When you ask, where is the harm? 43% of people believe that stem cell research is wrong, with 52% of those people citing their religious belief as the reason they oppose it (70% of conservatives cite region as a reason). The same people often support in vitro fertilization,which most often ends up in destruction of unborn eggs....

How about "intelligent design"? The argument is that kids should be given "both sides of the argument".....But there is no argument. One side has evidence, the other side has faith. Faith is an admission that claims cannot be shown to be true via evidence. If were gong to teach ID in schools, why don't we teach astrology....Maybe we can let the flat earth people, Holocaust deniers and moon landing deniers in the classroom too. Because we teach in the classroom things that work based on observation, experiment and practical experience.



When you consider this little nugget, the entire concept becomes laughable.....Atheists generally have more knowledge of religion then believers!!
U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey - Executive Summary - Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

When you look at the most religious places in the US, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana, Tennessee, South Carolina, Oklahoma, North Carolina, Georgia and Kentuky (rounding out the top 10), lets look at some statistics that seem to fly in the face of religious beleif...

8 of the 10 states I listed are in the top 10 in divorce rates
Oklahoma tops list of highest divorce rates - Business - Personal finance | NBC News

7 out of 10 are on the list of states with the highest incarceration rate
List of U.S. states by incarceration rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

6 of the 10 states have the highest murder rate (in 2011)
Murder Rates Nationally and By State | Death Penalty Information Center

6 of the 10 stats are highest in teen pregnancy
Which State Has the Highest Teen Birth Rate? - US News and World Report

Now, generally, I don't believe that correlation and causation are related...Indecently, all of the states I listed are "red states", and 8 of the 10 are in the bottom 10 in terms of income, which I think is the biggest factor, but it is ironic.

Sorry for the rant....

mak2 said:

Yes, I am a Christian and dont belive all evil comes from the Church, in fact, almost all of it good. To me if we could more emulate Jesus in our daily lives our would woudl be a much, much better place. I dont think people who start wars or crusades are acting in a Christian way. I could go on for pages but I am at work and dont have a lot of time. I also beleive all the major religions have a positive effect on their society.

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Emulating Jesus is one thing. I can be an atheist and emulate Jesus. I believe that killing is wrong, that theft is wrong, rape is wrong, slavery is wrong. Jesus would probably agree {edit} Oops, Jesus might be ok with the rape and slavery thing...), but I don't need religion to believe that stuff.

How about the 10 commandments....What kind of guide are they to living morally?


Thou shall bring no false idols before me.

False idols??


Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.

Another great guide to Living....

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

Besides the fact that almost no one does this, WHY??

Honor thy father and thy mother.

What of mom and dad are abusive? Should I still honor them? Just curious.

Thou shall not kill/murder†[/I].

Finally, something clear, or ummm is it..... Too bad there's no clearly written handbook on what constitutes murder or justified killing.

Thou shall not commit adultery.

Ok, I'm down with this, but I could think of better things in it's place. How about; "though shall not rape"? Or; "though shall not enslave another human being?" Or; "thou shall not oppress another person based on sex or race"? Or; "Though shall not abuse a child"... I dunno, maybe it's just me....

Thou shall not steal††.

Again, I'm down with it, but I can think of instances I might have to break it.....

Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor

You mean like lie in court? Does ANYONE tell the truth in court? Again, while I agree, this one doen't really stand the test of time. There are better alternatives, I mean, if I only had 10 to list...

Thou shall not covet‡ your neighbor's wife (or anything that belongs to your neighbor).

This is more important then the other alternatives I listed? Why does this one seem to be pointed at men? Again, evidence that this stuff was written by bronze age nomadic sheep herders and not god....

In all, If I were to list 10 rules to live by, I mean something I was going to put into a doctrine.....

I might start with something like this;

Resilience: Keeping going even when things are looking dark.
Empathy: The capacity to connect imaginatively with the sufferings and unique experiences of another person.
Patience: We should grow calmer and more forgiving by being more realistic about how things actually happen.
Sacrifice: We won’t ever manage to raise a family, love someone else or save the planet if we don’t keep up with the art of sacrifice.
Politeness: Politeness is closely linked to tolerance, the capacity to live alongside people whom one will never agree with, but at the same time, cannot avoid.
Humor: Like anger, humor springs from disappointment, but it is disappointment optimally channelled.
Self-awareness: To know oneself is to try not to blame others for one’s troubles and moods; to have a sense of what’s going on inside oneself, and what actually belongs to the world.
Forgiveness: It’s recognizing that living with others is not possible without excusing errors.
Hope: Pessimism is not necessarily deep, nor optimism shallow.
Confidence: Confidence is not arrogance – rather, it is based on a constant awareness of how short life is and how little we will ultimately lose from risking everything.

Or:

Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.
In all things, strive to cause no harm.
Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.
Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.
Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.
Always seek to be learning something new.
Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.
Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.
Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.
Question everything.

-Dawkins

Heck even the Socialist Sunday school oath is a big improvement....

Love your schoolfellows, who will be your fellow workmen in life.
Love learning, which is the food of the mind; be as grateful to your teacher as to your parents.
Make every day holy by good and useful deeds and kindly actions.
Honour good men, be courteous to all men, bow down to none.
Do not hate or speak evil of anyone. Do not be revengeful but stand up for your right and resist oppression.
Do not be cowardly. Be a friend to the weak and love justice.
Remember that all good things of the earth are produced by labour. Whoever enjoys them without working for them is stealing the bread of the workers.
Observe and think in order to discover the truth. Do not believe what is contrary to reason and never deceive yourself or others.
Do not think that he who loves his own country must hate and despise other nations, or wish for war, which is a remnant of barbarism.
Look forward to the day when all men and women will be free citizens of one fatherland and live together as brothers and sisters in peace and righteousness.

When I read the bible, and I have, at length, I find TONS of immorality, Genocide, rape, murder, slavery....And what's really F**KED up is that Christians defend this crap....That's a problem and when I say that religion is a problem, that's what I'm talking about.

lizzie said:

I would go beyond that, even to make a point that societies need religion, and if they didn't, it would never have existied in the first place. As many faults as there may be in religion, it fills a crucial role in the lives of a good number of people. People are going to place their trust in something greater than themselves, and I'd much rather it be God than an individual, or set of individual humans.

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I agree that humans needed religion in the past, but, religion is now vestigial - much like the appendix. We no longer need it. If you choose to keep it, that is your choice - as long as it does not harm others or affect political issues. I think this is the only way in which religion should exist.

It's obvious humans "needed" religion. That's why it was invented.

As we evolve (did I just use THAT word? :lol, learn, discover, and grow, perhaps it's a natural trend to let go of something like religion.

Personally, I think it's for the best.

The battle between materialism and conceptual-ism (or however you want to phrase it) has been raging for thousands of years.

Aristotle VS Plato
Nazi's VS Christians
Mao VS Religion

Etc; there will always be those who see only the material world and will battle against those who bring higher conceptualization to their reasoning (religion is 'higher conceptualization' of data / existence)

There will always be people like me who use religion as a mechanism for higher thinking, and there will always be the 'atheist' types who argue that only the physical world exists

(and the necessary philosophical implications of that logic)

Empirical reasoning VS philosophical reasoning

The spirit VS the flesh

Religion will never disappear, and neither will those opposed to it.

The western world exists because of Christian rejection of the 'divine right of kings' - I would argue that religious thinking leads to higher tiered social possibilities. "only God can judge" "objective justice" et al.

Conversely I would argue that material / non-spiritual thinking leads to nazi-esque eugenics arguments and the subsequent tyranny which comes along with it.

(note: I'm addressing the mechanics behind religion, clearly, 'religion' as defined by the Roman-ized church system has it's own form of tyranny [which I would argue is empirical / material in nature, and a rejection of Christian thinking])

lizzie said:

I would go beyond that, even to make a point that societies need religion, and if they didn't, it would never have existied in the first place. As many faults as there may be in religion, it fills a crucial role in the lives of a good number of people. People are going to place their trust in something greater than themselves, and I'd much rather it be God than an individual, or set of individual humans.

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*Pulls out book and opens it*

"Hm... humans need air, water, food, and shelter."

*Closes book and puts it back*

Nope, no religion. Wanna try again?

zgoldsmith23 said:

*Pulls out book and opens it*

"Hm... humans need air, water, food, and shelter."

*Closes book and puts it back*

Nope, no religion. Wanna try again?

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Your post perfectly illustrates the point I was making in my previous post right before yours.

You see the world purely through 'empirical' physical conceptions.

'Religious' people see the world through spiritual-philosophical conceptions.

So it never occurs to us philosophical thinkers that you don't perceive that need for those higher pursuits, and for you physical-materialists it never occurs that there are needs beyond base consumption / biological impulse.

And never the tween shall meet!

SingleCellOrganism said:

Your post perfectly illustrates the point I was making in my previous post right before yours.

You see the world purely through 'empirical' physical conceptions.

'Religious' people see the world through spiritual-philosophical conceptions.

So it never occurs to us philosophical thinkers that you don't perceive that need for those higher pursuits, and for you physical-materialists it never occurs that there are needs beyond base consumption / biological impulse.

And never the tween shall meet!

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I don't need religion to have a satisfying life. Neither does the majority of the populace in Sweden. That definitively proves the claim that religion is a requirement on either an individual or societal level false by counterexample. By contrast, goldsmiths material claims are undeniable. Food, water, air and shelter are objective needs that every single human today absolutely requires in order to survive.

SingleCellOrganism said:

Your post perfectly illustrates the point I was making in my previous post right before yours.

You see the world purely through 'empirical' physical conceptions.

'Religious' people see the world through spiritual-philosophical conceptions.

So it never occurs to us philosophical thinkers that you don't perceive that need for those higher pursuits, and for you physical-materialists it never occurs that there are needs beyond base consumption / biological impulse.

And never the tween shall meet!

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The two can meet. Philosophers develop questions about reality, science answers those questions about reality. And, yes, philosophers do care what scientists have to say.

rathi said:

I don't need religion to have a satisfying life. Neither does the majority of the populace in Sweden. That definitively proves the claim that religion is a requirement on either an individual or societal level false by counterexample. By contrast, goldsmiths material claims are undeniable. Food, water, air and shelter are objective needs that every single human today absolutely requires in order to survive.

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No offense intended by this, but citing of 'Sweden' is akin to Godwin's law! (and a statistical analysis flies in the face of what you're proposing anyway [E.G. 250% increase in crime since the 70's])

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying, and further proving my point that philosophical-idea-religious thinkers will NEVER make sense to you, and you'll NEVER make sense to us.

'baked into the cake' of our perspective are ideas like universal justice, the golden rule, 'reaping what you sow', etc.; all of these ideas are anathema to the physical-only thinker.

zgoldsmith23 said:

The two can meet. Philosophers develop questions about reality, science answers those questions about reality. And, yes, philosophers do care what scientists have to say.

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From a purely physical analysis of the natural world, yes.

From a philosophical perspective, no. The philosophical conceptions of religion are separate and distinct from physical realities. Ethics / morality are the perfect example of this.

The empiricist-atheist-thinker can only make biological 'natural selection' arguments for moral conception while the religious-spiritual-philosophical thinker abstracts the ideas into a higher realm.

SingleCellOrganism said:

No offense intended by this, but citing of 'Sweden' is akin to Godwin's law! (and a statistical analysis flies in the face of what you're proposing anyway [E.G. 250% increase in crime since the 70's])

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying, and further proving my point that philosophical-idea-religious thinkers will NEVER make sense to you, and you'll NEVER make sense to us.

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Okay, well I'll take back my technology, vaccines, medications, etc.. Good luck!

Religion is a good thing in general, the problem will always be people improperly using it for a toll of judgment/force/corruption etc etc

Religion is to be used for YOU, it is your own personal tool for you and your well being. When it gets extended beyond that things can get nasty.