BAHA'I faith - did it really come from the Judeo-Chrsitian God?

tosca1 · Apr 12, 2013

wolfsgirl said:
Just going by the posters on this thread, I would be more inclined to look into the Baha'i religion.

GG, you are truly showing the love of God through your words and actions.

Tosca, I would not want anything to do with any religion you preach based on your words and actions.

I feel so saddened that you feel that way. I respond not simply for you, but all others who may be inclined to think that way.

Don't base the most important decision you'll ever make in your whole life on what I - or others - say. Don't let your decision be influenced by my "mis-behaviour" or criminal offenses by pedophile priests, or atrocities by the Crusades, the Inquisition.....we are all men, and can at any time fall into temptation.

If ever there comes a time that you seek faith in God, just honestly ask yourself: why?

You have to answer in all honesty. You owe it to yourself.

German guy · Apr 12, 2013

tosca1 said:
I feel so saddened that you feel that way. I respond not simply for you, but all others who may be inclined to think that way.

Don't base the most important decision you'll ever make in your whole life on what I - or others - say. Don't let your decision be influenced by my "mis-behaviour" or criminal offenses by pedophile priests, or atrocities by the Crusades, the Inquisition.....we are all men, and can at any time fall into temptation.

If ever there comes a time that you seek faith in God, just honestly ask yourself: why?

I agree with you! The path to faith or religion should not be based on what other people say.

I'd just say that an understanding of faith that switched off or overrides reason is wrong, it's pure superstition and will lead to fanatism. Reason is a wonderful gift by God, and it would be wrong not to use it!

wolfsgirl · Apr 12, 2013

tosca1 said:
I feel so saddened that you feel that way. I respond not simply for you, but all others who may be inclined to think that way.

Don't base the most important decision you'll ever make in your whole life on what I - or others - say. Don't let your decision be influenced by my "mis-behaviour" or criminal offenses by pedophile priests, or atrocities by the Crusades, the Inquisition.....we are all men, and can at any time fall into temptation.

If ever there comes a time that you seek faith in God, just honestly ask yourself: why?

You have to answer in all honesty. You owe it to yourself.

But we, as humans, DO base decisions on many things. One of those things is how the members of a group act. The majority of the members of the christian group, that I have met, or seen online, don't act like people I would want to associate myself with.

I was raised in the baptist church, went to religious schools, and studied the bible daily. What ran me out of the church was the people.

tosca1 · Apr 12, 2013

wolfsgirl said:
But we, as humans, DO base decisions on many things. One of those things is how the members of a group act. The majority of the members of the christian group, that I have met, or seen online, don't act like people I would want to associate myself with.

I was raised in the baptist church, went to religious schools, and studied the bible daily. What ran me out of the church was the people.

I heard basically the same thing from others, ranging from the hypocrisy...the judgemental attitude....the sex scandal, etc..,
But that's what I mean. Why would you let people chase you off?

Surely you've heard of these verses....

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

A lot of us who call ourselves Christians will be in for a big shock to find that in the end, we're off the list. It is a constant struggle not to fall to temptation or to do the right thing. All of us are on the same boat. We'll be struggling with temptation until the day we die. I don't know if I'm articulating what I mean...I don't mean to preach to you.

My point is, don't let people influence your decision. These people did.
Because of them, you left Christ.

If your reason for embracing Christ is salvation and eternal life, then focus on Him. You find your courage and strength in Him.
I pray that you find your way back to Him.

wolfsgirl · Apr 12, 2013

tosca1 said:
Hypothetically-speaking....

Thus, you have to ask yourself what is the reason you'd embrace religion? What is your purpose? Your goal?

What do you mean hypothetically speaking? I don't know anyone who joins any group that is filled with people that they don't want to be associated with.
A church or religion is a group. The group is represented by it's members.

I have my own understanding of religion. I don't need a group to validate my beliefs.

tosca1 · Apr 12, 2013

wolfsgirl said:
What do you mean hypothetically speaking? I don't know anyone who joins any group that is filled with people that they don't want to be associated with.
A church or religion is a group. The group is represented by it's members.

I have my own understanding of religion. I don't need a group to validate my beliefs.

I edited my post.

I was saying hypothetically speaking, if you would want to join a religion/seek faith....what would be your reason for doing so?
It was hypothetical because I don't know if you're really seeking faith (does not have to be Christianity).

Some join for the social aspect of it.

Bonzai · Apr 12, 2013

I believe the Bahai faith came from a 19th century Iranian "prophet" who claimed to be fulfilling some transitional mark in Islam. Allah/ God/ Yahweh are all names for the one god. There is no specifically "JudeoChristian" god.........................

polgara · Apr 12, 2013

Bonzai said:
I believe the Bahai faith came from a 19th century Iranian "prophet" who claimed to be fulfilling some transitional mark in Islam. Allah/ God/ Yahweh are all names for the one god. There is no specifically "JudeoChristian" god.........................

Good evening, Bonz. :2wave:

Alert. Your mailbox is full. Housecleaning time....

tosca1 · Apr 12, 2013

wolfsgirl said:
Just going by the posters on this thread, I would be more inclined to look into the Baha'i religion.

GG, you are truly showing the love of God through your words and actions.

Tosca, I would not want anything to do with any religion you preach based on your words and actions.

I'd like to give a testimony that will somehow relate with this.

I've been active in religion forums, defending the faith and in my own way, helping to spread the Gospel.

Sometime last summer I was involved in a really heated debate. It made me question myself - the method that I use when debating. I remember asking God for guidance, saying that, "I'm afraid I might turn people off."

A couple of hours after that prayer to God, I attended a Christian workshop sponsored by Billy Graham. While we were seated waiting for the speaker to begin, I was leafing through the pamphlet that was handed out. Suddenly, a voice that sounded very much like John Goodman boomed, "ARE YOU AFRAID YOU ARE TURNING PEOPLE OFF?" Boy, probably my jaw dropped.

Then the speaker asked a volunteer to come to the front. A volunteer went. He asked the volunteer to turn off the light switch (which was already in the off position). The volunteer pressed the switch to "off." The speaker said, "turn it off." The volunteer said, "I can't. It's already off."

The speaker explained. His message was, "Don't be afraid. You can't turn off someone who's already off."

Bonzai · Apr 12, 2013

polgara said:
Good evening, Bonz. :2wave:

Alert. Your mailbox is full. Housecleaning time....

Sorry. It's empty now...........

polgara · Apr 12, 2013

Bonzai said:
Sorry. It's empty now...........

Sent PM.

wolfsgirl · Apr 12, 2013

tosca1 said:
I edited my post.

I was saying hypothetically speaking, if you would want to join a religion/seek faith....what would be your reason for doing so?
It was hypothetical because I don't know if you're really seeking faith (does not have to be Christianity).

Some join for the social aspect of it.

I have found my belief, no group required. But I was a christian at one time, now I don't want anything to do with them.

wolfsgirl · Apr 12, 2013

tosca1 said:
I'd like to give a testimony that will somehow relate with this.

I've been active in religion forums, defending the faith and in my own way, helping to spread the Gospel.

Sometime last summer I was involved in a really heated debate. It made me question myself - the method that I use when debating. I remember asking God for guidance, saying that, "I'm afraid I might turn people off."

A couple of hours after that prayer to God, I attended a Christian workshop sponsored by Billy Graham. While we were seated waiting for the speaker to begin, I was leafing through the pamphlet that was handed out. Suddenly, a voice that sounded very much like John Goodman boomed, "ARE YOU AFRAID YOU ARE TURNING PEOPLE OFF?" Boy, probably my jaw dropped.

Then the speaker asked a volunteer to come to the front. A volunteer went. He asked the volunteer to turn off the light switch (which was already in the off position). The volunteer pressed the switch to "off." The speaker said, "turn it off." The volunteer said, "I can't. It's already off."

The speaker explained. His message was, "Don't be afraid. You can't turn off someone who's already off."

But you also can't turn anyone on by being brash, judgmental, and unwilling to listen to their refutation of your "proof". You have to be willing to have a conversation, not just talk over them.

tosca1 · Apr 12, 2013

wolfsgirl said:
I have found my belief, no group required. But I was a christian at one time, now I don't want anything to do with them.

Just curious, you don't have to answer....does your belief rest in Christ?

sangha · Apr 12, 2013

tosca1 said:
I'd like to give a testimony that will somehow relate with this.

I've been active in religion forums, defending the faith and in my own way, helping to spread the Gospel.

Sometime last summer I was involved in a really heated debate. It made me question myself - the method that I use when debating. I remember asking God for guidance, saying that, "I'm afraid I might turn people off."

A couple of hours after that prayer to God, I attended a Christian workshop sponsored by Billy Graham. While we were seated waiting for the speaker to begin, I was leafing through the pamphlet that was handed out. Suddenly, a voice that sounded very much like John Goodman boomed, "ARE YOU AFRAID YOU ARE TURNING PEOPLE OFF?" Boy, probably my jaw dropped.

Then the speaker asked a volunteer to come to the front. A volunteer went. He asked the volunteer to turn off the light switch (which was already in the off position). The volunteer pressed the switch to "off." The speaker said, "turn it off." The volunteer said, "I can't. It's already off."

The speaker explained. His message was, "Don't be afraid. You can't turn off someone who's already off."

People aren't light switches. They can have many positions; Sometimes at the same time.

If you want to touch peoples' heart, you have to approach them as they are. Not envision them as a light switch

tosca1 · Apr 12, 2013

wolfsgirl said:
But you also can't turn anyone on by being brash, judgmental, and unwilling to listen to their refutation of your "proof". You have to be willing to have a conversation, not just talk over them.

Have you been to some forums where religion section is not as protected as on this site? You open your mouth there and bring up Christ, you're suddenly swarmed ...ridiculed and called names and all.

The word "judgemental" had taken on a whole new meaning this days....it's another word that's being mis-used and abused. You can't say anything is wrong without being called judgemental. However, there is a thing such as " better judgement." Don't we use judgement when we decide what is right and what is wrong?

We cannot judge though who goes to heaven or who perish. Only God can make that judgement.

But as Christians, we are obligated to remind a brethren (fellow-Christian) if he is doing something that's against the teachings of Christ. We are supposed to help one another to help us stay on the right path.

Contrary to some belief by non-believers, we are not required to convert non-believers. All we're required to do is to spread the gospel and pray for them to hear the words. Due to the way society is today (secularism and political correctness), it is hard for some to understand that Christianity does not make any compromises.
If one joins Christianity for the purpose of salvation and eternal life, then he ought o make sure he tries to conform to the will of God - not the other way around.
That's what humility is all about. Humility to bow down to God and say, "Thy will be done."

You've been a Christian before, and you said you read the Bible....well, tell me, isn't idolatry the main cause for God's wrath? Isn't idolatry - the worship of idols - so repeatedly mentioned as a warning in the Bible?

What kind of "conversation" would you like me to have with those who insist that The Judeo-Christian God says it's okay to worship idols?

wolfsgirl · Apr 12, 2013

tosca1 said:
Just curious, you don't have to answer....does your belief rest in Christ?

I believe that Jesus was a great teacher if he even existed.

wolfsgirl · Apr 12, 2013

tosca1 said:
Have you been to some forums where religion section is not as protected as on this site? You open your mouth there and bring up Christ, you're suddenly swarmed ...ridiculed and called names and all.

Do you think that christians attitudes might have something to do with that?

tosca1 said:
The word "judgemental" had taken on a whole new meaning this days....it's another word that's being mis-used and abused. You can't say anything is wrong without being called judgemental. However, there is a thing such as " better judgement." Don't we use judgement when we decide what is right and what is wrong?

We cannot judge though who goes to heaven or who perish. Only God can make that judgement.

We can also use our judgment to choose who to be associated with. If only god can make that judgment, why are christians constantly screaming about who's going to hell?

tosca1 said:
But as Christians, we are obligated to remind a brethren (fellow-Christian) if he is doing something that's against the teachings of Christ. We are supposed to help one another to help us stay on the right path.

Then remind your brethren, and leave the rest of us alone. I know that I'm a "sinner" according to your religion. I don't care.
Do you care that you are "sinning" according to someones religion that you don't follow?

tosca1 said:
Contrary to some belief by non-believers, we are not required to convert non-believers. All we're required to do is to spread the gospel and pray for them to hear the words. Due to the way society is today (secularism and political correctness), it is hard for some to understand that Christianity does not make any compromises.
If one joins Christianity for the purpose of salvation and eternal life, then he ought o make sure he tries to conform to the will of God - not the other way around.
That's what humility is all about. Humility to bow down to God and say, "Thy will be done."

Maybe you need to correct your brethren on this issue. Many could use humility.

tosca1 said:
You've been a Christian before, and you said you read the Bible....well, tell me, isn't idolatry the main cause for God's wrath? Isn't idolatry - the worship of idols - so repeatedly mentioned as a warning in the Bible?

What kind of "conversation" would you like me to have with those who insist that The Judeo-Christian God says it's okay to worship idols?

Idolatry is the main cause of gods wrath in one story. In another story it is inhospitably. In another it was the hardness of the Pharaohs heart.
Who has told you that the Judeo Christian god said it's ok?

As a christian, you telling a non christian that they are sinning against your religion means nothing. You might as well tell them that they are breaking the law of a foreign country.

tosca1 · Apr 12, 2013

wolfsgirl said:
Do you think that christians attitudes might have something to do with that?

We can also use our judgment to choose who to be associated with. If only god can make that judgment, why are christians constantly screaming about who's going to hell?

Then remind your brethren, and leave the rest of us alone. I know that I'm a "sinner" according to your religion. I don't care.
Do you care that you are "sinning" according to someones religion that you don't follow?

Maybe you need to correct your brethren on this issue. Many could use humility.

Idolatry is the main cause of gods wrath in one story. In another story it is inhospitably. In another it was the hardness of the Pharaohs heart.
Who has told you that the Judeo Christian god said it's ok?

As a christian, you telling a non christian that they are sinning against your religion means nothing. You might as well tell them that they are breaking the law of a foreign country.

Be happy in your new belief, Wolfsgirl. Your tone says it all. I'm so sorry for the hurt those people had caused you to make you feel that way.

I wish you well.

tosca1 · Apr 13, 2013

This message is directed to Christians and others following this thread.

I would just like to correct the misconception others may have - including some Christians - that to be a Christian would mean to be a passive "push-over" (for lack of better word at the moment) when it comes to speaking out about the Christian faith.
Some opponents try to use that as a weapon - some will quote Bible verses , not unlike the way the devil threw a Bible verse on Christ in the dessert - which could throw confusion at the believer, and to those who have not read the Bible.

Christians are not supposed to give any grounds - meaning, to compromise any stipulations of God in the Book just so to appease anyone.

Ephesians 6:10-20

The Whole Armor of God

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Take note that in the message above, the phrase relating to making a firm stand is repeated several times. Who puts up armor? One who'll face battle or a confrontation.

What does it mean to stand against? To stand firm.

Take note too, of these statements:

19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak

Lest someone say, "well that's just an apostle speaking. That's his interpretation...,"

Matthew 10

Christ Brings Division

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[e] 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Not to be mistaken for actual physical violence - but Matt 10 relates to standing firm, not giving any ground that compromises the Word of God - not even to family members , just so to appease others or, in this time of secularism - to be politically correct.

German guy · Apr 13, 2013

tosca1 said:
I heard basically the same thing from others, ranging from the hypocrisy...the judgemental attitude....the sex scandal, etc..,
But that's what I mean. Why would you let people chase you off?

Matthew 7:16: "By their fruit you will recognize them."

That was one verse I kept in mind when exploring religion, including Christianity and Islam. I found many Muslims have it very wrong these days, and while Christians are much better already, there are still too many horrible people among them. When I met the Baha'i community and observed how their faith influences them for the better, and how they are really wonderful people, it was one reason that convinced me of the truth of Baha'u'llah's revelation.

German guy · Apr 13, 2013

Bonzai said:
I believe the Bahai faith came from a 19th century Iranian "prophet" who claimed to be fulfilling some transitional mark in Islam. Allah/ God/ Yahweh are all names for the one god. There is no specifically "JudeoChristian" god.........................

Yes, that's more or less correct.

In 1844 Persia, a guy who was called "the Bab" ("the doorway") declared he is a new prophet sent by God. He was indentified by his followers as the Mahdi or Qaim, the hidden 12th Imam who was expected to come back according to Shia Islam, a messianic figure many Shias believed and still believe in (Sunni Muslims don't believe that), although the Bab himself never claimed this position. But the Bab said his role is that of a precursor who paves the way for "an even greater prophet" who will come 19 years later -- much like John the Baptist paved the way for Jesus Christ.

In 1850, after many bloody uprisings, the Shia Muslim clerics persecuted the "heretic" and his followers and executed him. Eventually, 19 years after the Bab's declaration, in 1863, Baha'u'llah, one of the remaining Babis, declared he was the promised, even greater prophet and founded the Baha'i religion.

All his books and letters are considered Holy Scripture by the Baha'is.

The Baha'is are still the largest religious minority in today's Iran, heavily persecuted by the Shia theocracy.

German guy · Apr 13, 2013

tosca1 said:
What kind of "conversation" would you like me to have with those who insist that The Judeo-Christian God says it's okay to worship idols?

I don't remember seeing anyone advocating the worship of idols. In case you are referring to me, I already explained to you that in the Baha'i faith, there is no idolatry. (Even less idolatry than among Christians, such as Catholics who sometimes seem to worship Jesus statues or pictures of saints -- no offense intended.)

What probably confused you was my explanation of the Baha'i stance that Hinduism is a divine religion by the same, single one God too. And many Hindus are known for idolatry.

So what is the answer? I gave it already: Krishna, a holy person for Hindus, was a divine prophet according to Baha'i theology. But that does not mean that all stories that were passed on about him, or the way the Hindu religion is often practized, is true to his real message. Over the many centuries and millennias, Hindu priests added many things to their scriptures, and many Hindus mixed Krishna's divine message with other traditions or believes. That's why many Hindus apparently commit idolatry -- although, if I am correctly informed, these idols are just symbols for the invisible Gods they worship, much like the Jesus statue is just a symbol for Catholics.

Another possible explanation is the following: We Baha'i believe in "progressive revelation", which means God "updates" the true religion every couple of centuries. That's necessary, because mankind develops and our ills change over time. God's divine message to Krishna, who revealed the Hindu religion, was the best cure for the illnesses of the Indian people at that time, and it was the best thing they were able to understand. Later, Christ came for another "update", finally Baha'u'llah.

And when you're dealing with an ancient society that's not very developed intellectually -- how do you proceed? Will you teach them the entire truth at once? No. That's why, for example, Moses did not reveal Jesus' message yet. In Moses' time, another message was more important. Likewise, Abraham did not reveal Moses' message yet. In Abraham's time, man was not capable of understanding it yet. When you teach first graders in elementary school, you will not start with college mathematics, right?

So maybe the Hindu faith was different, because man was not yet capable of understanding any more complex message yet. That's why later prophets "updated" the message, once man was capable of understanding it.

Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah is the most recent divine prophet. He condemned idolatry. That's why we don't do it, even if there exists idolatry in previous revelations. For us, the word of the most recent prophet, Baha'u'llah, is binding -- which means there is much truth in the other revelations, but they are "outdated versions".

German guy · Apr 13, 2013

tosca1 said:
This message is directed to Christians and others following this thread.

I would just like to correct the misconception others may have - including some Christians - that to be a Christian would mean to be a passive "push-over" (for lack of better word at the moment) when it comes to speaking out about the Christian faith.
Some opponents try to use that as a weapon - some will quote Bible verses , not unlike the way the devil threw a Bible verse on Christ in the dessert - which could throw confusion at the believer, and to those who have not read the Bible.

Christians are not supposed to give any grounds - meaning, to compromise any stipulations of God in the Book just so to appease anyone.

Take note that in the message above, the phrase relating to making a firm stand is repeated several times. Who puts up armor? One who'll face battle or a confrontation.

What does it mean to stand against? To stand firm.

Take note too, of these statements:

Lest someone say, "well that's just an apostle speaking. That's his interpretation...,"

Not to be mistaken for actual physical violence - but Matt 10 relates to standing firm, not giving any ground that compromises the Word of God - not even to family members , just so to appease others or, in this time of secularism - to be politically correct.

I don't think you should give ground compromising the Word of God.

But if you want to evoke interest in the message of Christ, maybe you should more appeal to the curiosity and hearts of people. You know, you can either wrap the truth in a nice package and hand it over with warm words, or you can lash the truth around someone's head like a wet towel. The former will certainly be more successful an approach, even if the truth remains the truth in both cases.

Wish you the best, and God bless you!

tosca1 · Apr 14, 2013

German Guy
But if you want to evoke interest in the message of Christ, maybe you should more appeal to the curiosity and hearts of people. You know, you can either wrap the truth in a nice package and hand it over with warm words,

Let me just respond to this well-meaning advice from my friend GG. If this were a marketing ploy to sell a product - it is indeed a very good advice. One has to be careful though not to falsely advertise....or misrepresent the product.

Some selling techniques would have you reduce the price, or give good deals. You attract buyers by selling them what they want.
You compete with others that sell the same product. It is good to remember too the law of supply and demand.

We are not selling Christianity. There is no competition!

We are simply spreading the Word - and praying that it will be heard. Those who truly seek will find - by opening their hearts to God, and humbly asking for His help in finding Him. God will do the rest.