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Why Did Jesus Say "Forgive THem Father......."

I feel that they are separate entities and the need to merge them into one is a result of a drive to maintain a monotheistic doctrine free of competing deities as existed with ancient religions.

First it was the deists vs the non deists. When the deists won out they had to explain how their god was killed by the lowly pagan Romans, hence the excuse he purposely died to erase "original sin". But since gods cannot die they had to create a story about him rising from the grave. Then they had to explain how there was more then one god, so up they came with the trinity.

It was one myth/lie after another to cover up the previous lies. They're still doing it today.
 
First it was the deists vs the non deists. When the deists won out they had to explain how their god was killed by the lowly pagan Romans, hence the excuse he purposely died to erase "original sin". But since gods cannot die they had to create a story about him rising from the grave. Then they had to explain how there was more then one god, so up they came with the trinity.

It was one myth/lie after another to cover up the previous lies
. They're still doing it today.

If you do not believe in Jesus then why are you part of a religious discussion that presumes his existence?
 
Ooops, didn't see this was in "Religious Discussion". If mods want to remove my comment, please do. I can't, past that period.
 
So Jesus is said to say on the cross "Forgive them Father for they know not what they not what they do".
Here's my concern, did he have to say that in order for God to forgive?
Does this mean God had to be told to forgive?
So is this God capable of "revenge"?
If God is beyond vengence and retribution, why would Jesus utter these dying words?
whoops. add me to the spanky-list of "my bad."

Please forgive me, I knew not that this was a closed discussion amongst believers.
 
whoops. add me to the spanky-list of "my bad."

Please forgive me, I knew not that this was a closed discussion amongst believers.

I've received a fair number of points doing exactly that. You see a threadon "latest", looks interesting, click and post and then BOOM, you find out you were in "Religion" or "Middle East".

Sux.
 
So Jesus is said to say on the cross "Forgive them Father for they know not what they not what they do".
Here's my concern, did he have to say that in order for God to forgive?
Does this mean God had to be told to forgive?
So is this God capable of "revenge"?
If God is beyond vengence and retribution, why would Jesus utter these dying words?
He'd already made the gesture. I don't suppose it's significance was lost on God, somehow.

It was merely a reiteration of an entreaty in progress. A sign of his desperation that we be forgiven.
 
So Jesus is said to say on the cross "Forgive them Father for they know not what they not what they do".
Here's my concern, did he have to say that in order for God to forgive?
Does this mean God had to be told to forgive?
So is this God capable of "revenge"?
If God is beyond vengence and retribution, why would Jesus utter these dying words?


That's His job. He does the forgivin'.
 
AT what age exactly did Jesus become omniscient? Three? Five? Twenty-One? As to omnipresent, that must have increased the world population of the early first century to a remarkable degree. Does anyone actually suppose Jesus-as-human was 'God' (whoever He might be?) in any meaningful sense?

I do. And one indication of when Jesus realized who He was was when He disappeared at 12 and scared the daylights out of Joseph and Mary, who finally found Him amazing the elders in the temple. And He chided His parents, asking (paraphrasing here), "Don't you know that I need to be about my Father's work?"

He wasn't talking about carpentry.
 
I do. And one indication of when Jesus realized who He was was when He disappeared at 12 and scared the daylights out of Joseph and Mary, who finally found Him amazing the elders in the temple. And He chided His parents, asking (paraphrasing here), "Don't you know that I need to be about my Father's work?"

He wasn't talking about carpentry.


He was manifestly distinguishing between himself and his Father, and if he were all-powerful, all-knowing and ubiquitous he obviously wasn't human, so that horse won't run.
 
So Jesus is said to say on the cross "Forgive them Father for they know not what they not what they do".
Here's my concern, did he have to say that in order for God to forgive?
Does this mean God had to be told to forgive?
So is this God capable of "revenge"?
If God is beyond vengence and retribution, why would Jesus utter these dying words?

Some of what Jesus said was in reference to Old Testament prophecies, in this case Isaiah 53:12...

Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.
 
After reviewing the thread, it saddens me but does not surprise me that I am the first and only person to quote the relevant portion of the Bible to which Jesus was referring. It's as if though people just want to argue based on emotion, on both sides.
 
After reviewing the thread, it saddens me but does not surprise me that I am the first and only person to quote the relevant portion of the Bible to which Jesus was referring. It's as if though people just want to argue based on emotion, on both sides.

Or, the writers of the NT were trying to make the life of Jesus fit the prophecy in order to justify and establish his divinity.
 
Or, the writers of the NT were trying to make the life of Jesus fit the prophecy in order to justify and establish his divinity.

So is that what your theory is?

I think what affirmed His divinity is rising from the dead. The early Church couldn't really rely on writings; as has been pointed out, the earliest Gospel was probably written around 66 A.D. What the Church did rely on was the first-hand testimony of those who were there and witnessed the Resurrection. What they saw and experienced was transformational...as this remains today.

It's the Living Word.
 
So is that what your theory is?

I think what affirmed His divinity is rising from the dead. The early Church couldn't really rely on writings; as has been pointed out, the earliest Gospel was probably written around 66 A.D. What the Church did rely on was the first-hand testimony of those who were there and witnessed the Resurrection. What they saw and experienced was transformational...as this remains today.

It's the Living Word.

It's all bullshat. So tell us, who were those people who witnessed the resurrection and then wrote about their first hand testimony? Nobody even knows who Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were. They're msystery men and they certainly weren't there when it happened.

"The early Church couldn't really rely on writings"

Do you even read what you write?
 
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It's all bullshat. So tell us, who were those people who witnessed the resurrection and then wrote about their first hand testimony? Nobody even knows who Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were. They're msystery men and they certainly weren't there when it happened.

"The early Church couldn't really rely on writings"

Do you even read what you write?

Indeed I do, and I also know what I'm saying even if you're unable to understand what I said. Sorry about that and your need to be personally insulting.
 
Indeed I do, and I also know what I'm saying even if you're unable to understand what I said. Sorry about that and your need to be personally insulting.

Shall I speak in parseltongue?
 
Symbolism. It's part of the fine line for Jesus of being God and man. He had a way of looking at the world both ways. To go further, why would He say "My God, why have you abandoned me" when He didn't abandon Himself? At the time, he probably felt helpless and abandoned. We all do sometimes.

It's important to remember also that what's written in the Gospels is sometimes fictionalized for different reasons. The earliest of them was written at least 30 years later, and the authors weren't actually there. I always read direct quotes of Jesus from them with a grain of salt.

30 years is nothing.

Who sings the song "Billie Jean is not my lover, she's just a girl who claims that I am the one...."

How does the rest of the song go... "Don't tell my heart, my achy breaky heart, I just don't think..."

You remember that crap, and that was 30 years ago. You don't think people would remember the details of the son of god coming to earth?

Also, there area 4 gospels, and there were hundreds of witnesses still alive when they were written down. If something were wrong, it could have been corrected.
 
I think we all can see how Peter was transformed.
 
Putting God robed in flesh to death.

Why would they have to be forgiven of that? Why should they? Were all Romans forgiven for every poor sap they crucified or just the ones lucky enough to have done so to Jesus?
 
30 years is nothing.

Who sings the song "Billie Jean is not my lover, she's just a girl who claims that I am the one...."

How does the rest of the song go... "Don't tell my heart, my achy breaky heart, I just don't think..."

You remember that crap, and that was 30 years ago.

We know those things because they were recorded 30 years ago (yet we've encountered them numerous time SINCE then).

They didn't record those songs 30 years after they were sung. If they hadn't been recorded 30 years ago, you wouldn't know anything about them.

You don't think people would remember the details of the son of god coming to earth?

The people who were capable of remembering (a.k.a. people who palled around with Jesus) are not believed by biblical scholars to be the same people who wrote the gospels.

Also, there area 4 gospels, and there were hundreds of witnesses still alive when they were written down. If something were wrong, it could have been corrected.

It's very well proven that eye witness accounts suck even immediately after an event. 30 years down the line they are likely to be brutally bad. How could it be "corrected" if the only things people have to go on are known to be flawed sources, since there is no way to truly "correct" based on original material?
 
So Jesus is said to say on the cross "Forgive them Father for they know not what they not what they do".
Here's my concern, did he have to say that in order for God to forgive?
Does this mean God had to be told to forgive?
So is this God capable of "revenge"?
If God is beyond vengence and retribution, why would Jesus utter these dying words?

It was love being shown by example.

Anyway, who said God is beyond vengeance and retribution?

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
 
"...for they know not what they do."

What didn't they know they were doing?

Since they don't believe in Jesus, they don't know who they're actually killing. They don't know what happens to those who are not saved.
 
30 years is nothing.

Who sings the song "Billie Jean is not my lover, she's just a girl who claims that I am the one...."

How does the rest of the song go... "Don't tell my heart, my achy breaky heart, I just don't think..."

You remember that crap, and that was 30 years ago. You don't think people would remember the details of the son of god coming to earth?

Also, there area 4 gospels, and there were hundreds of witnesses still alive when they were written down. If something were wrong, it could have been corrected.


True!

Not to mention all the miracles He performed. Especially when He was actually seen by about 500 people right after His death - alive and well!

Billie Jean? I remember the song BEN! Much older than Billie Jean. And I can sing it, too!
 
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So Jesus is said to say on the cross "Forgive them Father for they know not what they not what they do".
Here's my concern, did he have to say that in order for God to forgive?
Does this mean God had to be told to forgive?
So is this God capable of "revenge"?
If God is beyond vengence and retribution, why would Jesus utter these dying words?

Because he, himself, was capable of understanding human depravity, separating himself from it, and loving his fellow man in spite of it. That's a mighty big pair of shoes to fill, as the vast vast majority of us don't have what it takes to be that humble, be that forgiving, or willingly sacrifice our very lives because mankind wallows in ignorance, stupidity, and hatred.
 
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