So What's Wrong with the Christian View of Homosexuality?

solletica said:

If the CC wants to have any credibility on thetopic of sexuality in its attack on LGBT groups and their ideology, it should embrace queer theory, which holds that many of society's "modern"views of sexuality, including the classification of people into categories like"gay" or "straight" are based on outdated (and mostly Victorian) assumptions that have no scientific validity (based on data).

The CC's main argument against gay marriage is that homosexuality is against God's will, i. e. unnatural. This is clearly false since…

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(from the Catholic Church should wage war againstlabels, NOT homosexuality thread)

This was the opening post from another thread and I’ve read many like it over the years. It always strikes me as a little odd how unbelievers seem to inherently understand what a Christian’s view on homosexuality is, what’s wrong with it and what Christians should believe when--clearly--they don’t have a clue.

What strikes me as frightening is when Christians clearly have no clue what the Bible says about homosexuality.

To the very best of my knowledge, the topic of homosexuality is only addressed by the following biblical verses.

Old Testament

a) “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.” (Leviticus 18: 22)

b) “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.” (Leviticus 20: 13)

NOTE: The Old Testament applied onlyto the people of Israel during Old Testament times. Gentile nations were held to a differentstandard. See Amos 1 & 2.

New Testament

c) “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.” (Romans 1: 26-27)

d) “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, noridolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians6:9-11)

e) “Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned…and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them toashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter.” (2 Peter 2: 2 and 6)

f) “just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.” (Jude 1: 7-8)

And while it is important to understand what the Bible says, it is also important to recognize what the Bible does not say. As such there are some things that we may must recognize from the above.

1. God hates the homosexual act (sex), not the homosexual.

2. The homosexual act is a sin.

3. While the homosexual act is a sin it is not some kind of “super-sin” as some seem to understand it to be. Leviticus 18 states that the homosexual act is an “abomination”. The original word used there is transliterated “toebah”.

And God uses this word elsewhere in the Scriptures to describe other thingsHe hates, such as:

Proverbs 6: 16-19

There are six things which the Lord hates,
Yes, seven which are an abomination (toebah) to Him:
Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.

In other words, the homosexual act is as much of anabomination to God as haughtiness, lying, murder, devilish schemes, those whodon’t hesitate to do that which is evil and jerks.

Even I have been guilty of some of those.

4. Gay folks who are saved are going to Heaven. Gay folks who are not are going to Hell. Works the exact same way with straight folks (John 3:16)

5. The gospel accounts do not reveal if Jesus ever spoke about homosexuality and some would argue that since Jesus did not specifically condemn homosexuality then it must have been acceptable to Him. However, the gospels are not and were never intended to be acomprehensive collection of all the things Jesus said and did.

However, we do know that in the gospels Jesus only spoke about intimate relationships in terms of husbands and wives (Matthew 19: 4-6 & Mark 10:6-9).

This is why Believers hold to marriage as only between one man and one woman.

6. There is nothing in the Bible--that I’m aware of--that forbids the homosexual orientation (emotional longing for same sex relationship / sexual attraction) and requires heterosexuality.

However the Bible does require sexual purity (one man /one woman within the covenant of marriage).

7. There is nothing in the Bible that requires Christians to hate, malign or shun gay-folks as some have believed (both Believers and non-Believers).

So what is wrong with that?

Homosexuality is not a disease, abnormality, choice or something that can be 'fixed'. People do not choose to be so and they cannot pray it away.

That's the big disconnect of the 'Christian' view; also, it doesn't hurt anyone.

Oh boy.

First, I think we should distinguish between the "Christian view" that comes from particular interpretations of the Bible and the "Christian view" that comes from assumptions that many Christian human beings make about homosexuality that have nothing to do with the Bible.

Examples of the latter include ideas like "homosexuality is a mental illness", "homosexuality is contagious", "homosexual parents hurt their children", "gay men are pedophiles" and so on. The problem with those ideas that they are factually incorrect and they cause harm to gay/lesbian/bisexual teens and adults that is unacceptable.

Examples of the former are the "homosexuality is wrong" interpretations of the Bible verses you listed. I'm kind of ambivalent about whether or not these interpretations of the Bible are problematic. On the one hand, I think that people believing homosexuality is wrong is not a problem as long as they don't get in the way of gay rights or act hateful and discriminatory towards gay people. On the other hand, I consider those interpretations of the Bible problematic because:

1) They equate things as demonstrably harmful as murder and adultery with something as neutral (and, in many cases, wonderful) as same-sex relationships
2) They have painful psychological effects on many of the gay and bisexual people who are raised in the Church to think of who they are and who they love as sinful and I find that abhorrent. I honestly consider it sadistic to tell people that it is a sin to have sex with someone they are in love with and who they will cherish as powerfully as any straight person would cherish their significant other.

In sum, the views many Christians have about gay people being pedophiles, horrible for children and the like are demonstrably false and they are harmful for that reason in addition to the effect such views have on the lives of LGB people. The belief that Bible condemns homosexuality is, on the one hand, not problematic to an extent so long as it doesn't influence policy. However, it is problematic to an extent in terms of the false equivalencies it draws between homosexuality and things like adultery and in terms of how sadistic it is to tell people they are sinful for wanting the same relationships that they see straight people have everyday.

Because there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, anything that says differently is a lie. And religious beliefs that say otherwise are wrong, and in my mind sinful themselves because they breed hate, inequality, and contempt.

By the standards of Christianity, homosexuality is indeed improper and violates the rules of the Bible in which Christians believe.

Despite the fantasies of some, we are not a Christian Nation, we are a secular nation. So, many of us do not agree with the Christian perspective. That does not make Christians "bad". It simply means that we do not agree with or wish to ne guided by "Christian Principles".

It is proper for Christians to follow their own principles. Therefore, Christians should not be homosexuals.

ecofarm said:

Homosexuality is not a disease, abnormality, choice or something that can be 'fixed'. People do not choose to be so and they cannot pray it away.

That's the big disconnect of the 'Christian' view; also, it doesn't hurt anyone.

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I think there is some debate as to what causes homosexuality... I say this fully realizing that it's not PC to say anything but "they were born that way."

As for homosexuality not hurting anyone... I would agree that lesbians don't, but aren't gay men the reason AIDS spread back in the 80's?

people have a right to believe what they want to believe, but i don't want it dictating public policy.

the ancient understanding of many things was a little incomplete. for example, Leviticus spends time writing about forbidden foods. has anyone ever thought about why those foods were forbidden? they were forbidden because they were hard to prepare correctly, and people got sick from them. now, you're an ancient man, and you see someone eat shellfish, get sick, and possibly die. do you think, "that food must contain a pathogenic microorganism that can make people sick when it's improperly prepared?" no. you think, "that food is forbidden by God." the text is at least partially an ancient food safety guide.

i think the modern view of homosexuality is preferable. i know that i certainly wouldn't want the Islamic laws for women to be a part of our legal structure. likewise, i don't want homosexuals to be unable to enjoy the same rights as heterosexuals. i made no choice to be heterosexual; i just fell for girls. the same thing happens to those who are gay. there are many examples of homosexuality in mammals, and we're mammals. we don't choose it any more than other mammals do.

i should also add that i am not an atheist. i just feel that there are many paths to the truth.

Why should the Christian view (not that there's a single one, anyway) matter more than any other one? And what possible reason is there for it to matter more than the medical, psychological, scientific, legal, or constitutional views? I'll stick with those over bronze and iron age stories any day.

Peter Grimm said:

As for homosexuality not hurting anyone... I would agree that lesbians don't, but aren't gay men the reason AIDS spread back in the 80's?

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AIDS spread, that's what virus does. Let's not pretend that gay people made AIDS. Anyway, how does the presence of AIDS in the world hurt you? Safe sex is your responsibility, not society's. For me, we get tested first and use protection at least until the second test months later. If that doesn't fly for a woman, then she doesn't have an E-ticket and needs to go to a different ride.

Your Star said:

Because there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, anything that says differently is a lie. And religious beliefs that say otherwise are wrong, and in my mind sinful themselves because they breed hate, inequality, and contempt.

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So the Bible is a lie, wrong, sinful and breeds hate, inequality and contempt?

Well, the fact of the matter is homosexuals themselves with few exceptions will not be abstaining from sex or relationships their entire lives whatever the biblical interpretation, so any kind of qualified acceptance by the CC is going to evoke "We don't care." As things currently stand, I heard there are about 6000 churches in this country that accept LGBT, so that's some progress. It's certainly gotten much better in some places.

There are still many though who grow up under the church only to feel abandoned or even hated and by adulthood have entered full-blown ignore mode. Their friends and family also take notice. So I think those who are still on the fence about this will have to do some soul-searching about whether they want to continue driving away young people especially.

The Baron said:

So the Bible is a lie, wrong, sinful and breeds hate, inequality and contempt?

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Yes.

7890

Peter Grimm said:

I think there is some debate as to what causes homosexuality... I say this fully realizing that it's not PC to say anything but "they were born that way."

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That's a funny thing to claim considering the APA's stance clearly demonstrates a range of possible factors.
I think the real taboo is to claim that being gay is a choice, which is based on nothing but ignorance.

Peter Grimm said:

As for homosexuality not hurting anyone... I would agree that lesbians don't, but aren't gay men the reason AIDS spread back in the 80's?

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Not globally. Globally, it started as and still remains primarily a heterosexual disease.
But regardless, by this approach we could just as validly claim heterosexuality was hurting people with all the long list of STDs that have been spread by heterosexuals throughout history.
I really don't see a point in such an approach, other than obvious derogatory denigration.

chromium said:

There are still many though who grow up under the church only to feel abandoned or even hated and by adulthood have entered full-blown ignore mode. Their friends and family also take notice. So I think those who are still on the fence about this will have to do some soul-searching about whether they want to continue driving away young people especially.

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Agreed.

Paschendale said:

Yes.

7890

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That is a very extreme position.

Peter Grimm said:

I think there is some debate as to what causes homosexuality... I say this fully realizing that it's not PC to say anything but "they were born that way."

As for homosexuality not hurting anyone... I would agree that lesbians don't, but aren't gay men the reason AIDS spread back in the 80's?

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Wow that is a really sexist misogynist comment.

Baron if you want to live by that harsh interpretation so be it after all it is a free country. Don't expect others to live that way though.

If you want to call a something immoral, you must demonstrate how it causes harm. Homosexuality does not cause harm and is not immoral. By contrast, prejudice against homosexuals has led to considerable amounts of suffering and can rightly be deemed unethical.

rathi said:

If you want to call a something immoral, you must demonstrate how it causes harm. Homosexuality does not cause harm and is not immoral. By contrast, prejudice against homosexuals has led to considerable amounts of suffering and can rightly be deemed unethical.

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1 Corinthians 6:18

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.

The Baron said:

So the Bible is a lie, wrong, sinful and breeds hate, inequality and contempt?

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Not the entire book, but parts yes I believe that. I know enough of how the Bible was written, translated, and edited that I can't believe that every word in it is the literal word of God, that is just a ridiculous belief to me.

Maybe it's just a matter of religion and state.

It's my conviction that any path to faith and religion can only be individual. Once I really embrace a religion, I'm way too busy working on myself than to tell others how to live; or so it should be.

When a homosexual deliberately adopts a religion that requires abstinence, I am all for it. I'll do my best to help him/her to manage that, if asked. If another homosexual decided to reject such a faith, I don't think it's my job to tell him, or to influence government to tell him how to live his private life; whom to have sex with or whom to marry. I don't want him to tell me how to worship either, so who am I to do that?

The Baron said:

That is a very extreme position.

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No more extreme than suggesting that it is true despite the contradictory evidence, or that it is good despite all the evil it causes. Probably less so, since in order for the bible to be true, many other things would have to be lies, whereas the opposite only requires one lie.

It only really feels extreme to you because of the level of privilege that theists and especially Christians have enjoyed for so long. 1800 years ago, followers of Jupiter would have said the exact same thing for exactly the same reason when confronted with Christianity compared to their religion. I imagine that those Romans would not think that doubting the authenticity or morality of the bible was extreme, nor would a Buddhist or Hindu that didn't live in a country dominated by Christians and Christianity.

If Religion is not a bridge instead of a barrier.

If it's not about inclusiveness rather than exclusiveness.

If it's not about compassion rather than judgement then it's going to separate people.

And if these so called Christians are going to go on about "Well it's about hating the sin rather than the sinner" and "Oh well I sin too"... yeah but let's see you trying to curtail your own rights because you apparently "sin".

Bible literalism and not understanding that the bible does need context is a recipe for disaster and it's exactly the kind of thing that leads people away from what Jesus was actually all about.

For the lord does not support self righteousness ever.

Theres nothing wrong with it. Its their belief and they're not bad people.

But on tha comment a' AIDS, it's not caused by homosexuals. Its a virus caused by the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and anyone can be infected by it. Because it's a bloodborne pathogen anyone can spread it.

I think most non Christians think we are all Catholics or Baptists with no middle lol.