• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Who is Jesus?

I think that by "stipulate," Gilbert meant, "For the sake of argument, let's accept for a moment...."
 
Goshin said:
Another name for Jesus is Logos, The Word.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1


Jesus is that aspect or personage of God we call The Son, the Word made flesh, who took incarnate form as Jesus Christ to show us God in person, and to bridge the gap between Holy God and sinful Man. He is the Messiah and Kinsman-Redeemer, the Lamb of God who sacrificed himself for all the sin of the world, the only Name by which we must be saved.

I just call him "Lord". :)
Click to expand...

Well done!
 
The Baron said:
“Who do you say that I am?”

This was the question posed to the apostles by Jesus’. Peter confessed that Jesus was the Messiah--theChrist.

I believe that Jesus is God, Himself. Now I realize that there are people who believe in Jesus but do not believe that He is God. Some believe Him to be the angel Michael. Others believe Him to simply be the“Son of God” and call him such without ever explaining what they understand the“Son of God” to be.

So who do you say that He is? Please explain.
Click to expand...

He's probably just some dude who developed a following.
Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
While there is widespread scholarly agreement on the existence of Jesus, the portraits of Jesus constructed in these quests have often differed from each other, and from the dogmatic image portrayed in the gospel accounts.[13][14][15][1] The mainstream profiles in the third quest may be grouped together based on their primary theme as apocalyptic prophet, charismatic healer, Cynic philosopher, Jewish Messiah and prophet of social change.[16][17] But there is little scholarly agreement on a single portrait, or the methods needed to construct it.[2][1][18] There are, however, overlapping attributes among the portraits and pairs of scholars which may differ on some attributes may agree on others.[19][16][17] Yet, there is "a consensus of sorts" on the basic outline of Jesus' life in that most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, debated Jewish authorities on the subject of God, performed some healings, gathered followers, and was crucified by Roman prefect Pontius Pilate.[20]

A number of scholars have criticized the various approaches used in the study of the historical Jesus, on one hand for the lack of rigor in the research methods, on the other for having been driven by "specific agendas" that interpret ancient sources to fit specific goals.[21][22][23][24] These agendas range from those that aim to confirm the Christian view of Jesus, to those that aim to discredit Christianity to those which interpret the life and teachings of Jesus with the hope of causing social change.
Click to expand...

Were it not for the troubles in Rome, Constantine would not have elevated this small obscure cult to the level of official religion. And, even so---he seemed to hedge his bets.
Constantine the Great - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Scholars debate whether Constantine adopted his mother St. Helena's Christianity in his youth, or whether he adopted it gradually over the course of his life.[207] Constantine would retain the title of pontifex maximus until his death, a title emperors bore as heads of the pagan priesthood, as would his Christian successors on to Gratian (r. 375–83). According to Christian writers, Constantine was over 40 when he finally declared himself a Christian, writing to Christians to make clear that he believed he owed his successes to the protection of the Christian High God alone.[208] Throughout his rule, Constantine supported the Church financially, built basilicas, granted privileges to clergy (e.g. exemption from certain taxes), promoted Christians to high office, and returned property confiscated during the Diocletianic persecution.[209] His most famous building projects include the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and Old Saint Peter's Basilica.

However, Constantine certainly did not patronize Christianity alone. After gaining victory in the Battle of the Milvian Bridge (312), a triumphal arch—the Arch of Constantine—was built (315) to celebrate his triumph. The arch is most notably decorated with images of the goddess Victoria and, at the time of its dedication, sacrifices to gods like Apollo, Diana, and Hercules were made. Most notably absent from the Arch are any depictions whatsoever regarding Christian symbolism.

Later in 321, Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the venerable day of the sun, referencing the sun-worship that Aurelian had established as an official cult. Furthermore, and long after his oft alleged "conversion" to Christianity, Constantine's coinage continued to carry the symbols of the sun...
Click to expand...
But, it explains the reason Christmas is around the the winter's solstice (Birth of the sun) and why Easter occurs near the equinox (Passover).
 
Cyrylek said:
I don't know. You said "So for me he was who he claimed to be". You explain how it is significant.
Click to expand...

I think this is the best explanation.

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon, or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come away with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
Click to expand...
CS Lewis Mere Christianity
 
The Baron said:
You don't know that.
Click to expand...

What I know is that even if someone wants to claim that Jesus never said the three word phrase, "I am God", it amounts to an intellectual "nyah, nyah", a puddle deep understanding of NT or voluntary ignorance.

There is a difference between accepting and sharing a belief and fully understanding and respecting how someone arrives at that belief. I say all the time that atheism is a perfectly logical and reasonable conclusion to arrive at, logical and reasonable conclusions can be wrong.

I accept my non believing friends assertion that believing in God is contrary to all that is naturally known since God by definition would have to be super natural. In fact I tell my atheist friends all the time, that it is their need to oversimplify Christians and over complicate God that is their basic problem.

They think Christianity, simplifies life for the Christian when it complicates it and complicates life when it simplifies it, they see faith as a crutch for the believer rather than what it is, the absolute freedom from crutches.

Most importantly they do not understand that perfection, God, can not be understood by human beings because perfection is infinitely simple rather than infinitely complex.

So they are always heading in the wrong direction, at least on the matter of understanding faith.
 
Last edited:
gilbertc1908 said:
What I know is that even if someone wants to claim that Jesus never said the three word phrase, "I am God", it amounts to an intellectual "nyah, nyah", a puddle deep understanding of NT or voluntary ignorance.
Click to expand...

I say “you don’t know that” because you can’t. It’s not a “nyah, nyah” deal. Just a simple recognition of the truth. Per the Gospels, Jesus never said “I am God” but these same Gospels recognize that we don't know everything that Jesus said or did. The last verse of John 21 states “…there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.”

But to state that Jesus never said “I am God” is to voluntarily ignore all of the other things that Jesus said and did to acknowledge that He was God.
 
The Baron said:
I say “you don’t know that” because you can’t. It’s not a “nyah, nyah” deal. Just a simple recognition of the truth. Per the Gospels, Jesus never said “I am God” but these same Gospels recognize that we don't know everything that Jesus said or did. The last verse of John 21 states “…there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.”

But to state that Jesus never said “I am God” is to voluntarily ignore all of the other things that Jesus said and did to acknowledge that He was God.
Click to expand...

If Jesus DID say "I am God" you'd think that would be a huge deal and would thus be put in the Gospels, it would be pretty irresponsible of the writers to leave that out.

Also Jesus over and over again made it clear that he WAS NOT God, and that God was different and higher than him, it's also reitterated throughout the New Testiment, he says the father is greater than I am, the father sent me, and so on and so forth, all over the NT its obvious that God and Jesus are not the same person.

We've had this discussion before.
 
Jesus brought the idea of grace. He preached of the potential for a happy afterlife, gave humans hope even. Jesus put behind him the mean old God of the O/T and brought to his followers a "loving" God.

That's either a huge achievement or no big deal. It depends on your POV.
 
RGacky3 said:
If Jesus DID say "I am God" you'd think that would be a huge deal and would thus be put in the Gospels, it would be pretty irresponsible of the writers to leave that out.
Click to expand...

While the Gospets do not record Christ saying "I am God" using those very words He did claim to be God everytime He called Himself "the Son of Man" (88 times, I think--a reference to Daniel 7:13). He also told the Jews, "Before Abraham was born, I Am" (a reference to John 8:58). You may also recall that He told His apostles that "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

You are also forgetting that Christ has all of the attributes of God which I can list for you if you like.

RGacky3 said:
...its obvious that God and Jesus are not the same person.
Click to expand...

No argument from me there. God is three persons...but just one God.
 
The Baron said:
“Who do you say that I am?”

This was the question posed to the apostles by Jesus’. Peter confessed that Jesus was the Messiah--theChrist.

I believe that Jesus is God, Himself. Now I realize that there are people who believe in Jesus but do not believe that He is God. Some believe Him to be the angel Michael. Others believe Him to simply be the“Son of God” and call him such without ever explaining what they understand the“Son of God” to be.

So who do you say that He is? Please explain.
Click to expand...

Jesus is a word in a book and on people's lips. The word becomes a concept, when put in context of His story and teachings.

The concept of Jesus - love, forgiveness, sympathy - as it lives in mankind, is the Holy Spirit. In other words, the Holy Spirit is the Word, the message of Christ. That is why Jesus can be said to be God and the Spirit.

As for Jesus the man in the flesh, we don't know Him. We don't know who he was, or what he looked like. That is why the important thing is to understand His teachings.

His teachings, and the lessons learned from his life, are what lead to a closeness with God.
 
The Baron said:
Who cares about His teachings and the lessons of His life if He is not God?
Click to expand...

Jesus said you can tell a tree by the fruits it bears. A good tree bears good fruit, and a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Think of the teachings and story of Jesus as his fruit. You know he is God because his teachings and life story are perfect, like God.
 
The Baron said:
While the Gospets do not record Christ saying "I am God" using those very words He did claim to be God everytime He called Himself "the Son of Man" (88 times, I think--a reference to Daniel 7:13). He also told the Jews, "Before Abraham was born, I Am" (a reference to John 8:58). You may also recall that He told His apostles that "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

You are also forgetting that Christ has all of the attributes of God which I can list for you if you like.
Click to expand...

The "son of man" isn't a referance to God, not in the least, infact it's the opposite, it would be unthinkable for Jews to call God a "son of man" that is a referance to the massiah. (In daniel, the son of man approaches God, he' isn't God).

As far as the "before Abraham was, I am," that in no way is a referance to him being God, it either means he was prophised or that he was a spirit creature before his earthly ministry, but there is nothing there equating him to God.

As far as John 10:30, he also says that the deciples are one with him, and that they should be one with one another, so obviously that saying has nothing to do with actual metaphysical existance, it is obviously metaphorical, unless of coarse you think all of Jesus deciples' are God as well.

Again, we've done this already.

No argument from me there. God is three persons...but just one God.
Click to expand...

Yeah, just one God, of which Jesus is not a part of, Only YHWH, also 3 persons and one god is a logical impossibility, akin to saying god is a square circle.
 
Juiposa said:
Jesus was a disillussioned megalomaniac who manipulated those who followed him into thinking he was "God." His life and actions, and the actions of his followers have resulted in the creation of the largest religion in the world. A religion I happen to disapprove of.

That is who Jesus is to me.
Click to expand...

Wouln't have been easier for you to just say you know absolutely nothing about Jesus and left it at that?
 
The Baron said:
“Who do you say that I am?”

This was the question posed to the apostles by Jesus’. Peter confessed that Jesus was the Messiah--theChrist.

I believe that Jesus is God, Himself. Now I realize that there are people who believe in Jesus but do not believe that He is God. Some believe Him to be the angel Michael. Others believe Him to simply be the“Son of God” and call him such without ever explaining what they understand the“Son of God” to be.

So who do you say that He is? Please explain.
Click to expand...

I believe Jesus was a manifestation of God and an independent prophet in the line of Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zarathustra, Buddha, Mohammed, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

As I don't believe in trinity, "manifestation of God" means that Jesus is not God, but perfectly reflects God's power and wisdom as a clean mirror reflects the sunlight (yet the sun never touches or enters the mirror). Man can only see God through His manifestations, not directly, as God is perfectly transcendent.

Likewise, it's not always 100% clear whether a manifestation of God speaks as the prophet, or directly speaks God's word. You can that in case of OT prophets or Quran, where the speech changes from direct word of God to the prophet. If Jesus said he was God, He was right.

Jesus was born by the virgin Mary and fathered by the Holy Spirit. But I am not 100% sure if that means that the man Jesus was fathered that way, or just Jesus, the manifestation of God. Jesus, as all independent prophets, was born with hidden wisdom, and was gifted with a special spirit.
 
Last edited:
Peter Grimm said:
Jesus said you can tell a tree by the fruits it bears. A good tree bears good fruit, and a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Think of the teachings and story of Jesus as his fruit. You know he is God because his teachings and life story are perfect, like God.
Click to expand...

I don't buy that. FOr one, most of what we know about "his teachings" were heavily edited by men with agendas. For instance, was he married or not? I think it goes without saying that if Jesus was married and raised a family, but since none of that is in the written gospel, then most people really do not know Jesus.
 
Gardener said:
Wouln't have been easier for you to just say you know absolutely nothing about Jesus and left it at that?
Click to expand...

That's not even close to rebutting what he said. For all you know, he could be a scholar who studied Jesus for 30 years. He stated an opinion that conflicts with those of the true believes is all.
 
calamity said:
For all you know, he could be a scholar who studied Jesus for 30 years. .
Click to expand...

A scholar would not make such a stupid and prejudiced statement.
 
Gardener said:
A scholar would not make such a stupid and prejudiced statement.
Click to expand...

There is that.

Btw: I disagree with the part about Jesus being a disillusioned meglamaniac. There is no evidence to this effect. I certainly do not believe everything which was attributed to him. From imaculate conception to ressurection, I buy almost none of it. But, Jesus the man never made any outlandish claims. He was just about as humble as the next guy, but he certainly preached a different tune than the other Jewish preachers of that time.
 
The Baron said:
“Who do you say that I am?”

This was the question posed to the apostles by Jesus’. Peter confessed that Jesus was the Messiah--theChrist.

I believe that Jesus is God, Himself. Now I realize that there are people who believe in Jesus but do not believe that He is God. Some believe Him to be the angel Michael. Others believe Him to simply be the“Son of God” and call him such without ever explaining what they understand the“Son of God” to be.

So who do you say that He is? Please explain.
Click to expand...

A human who had a good philosophy.
 
German guy said:
I believe Jesus was a manifestation of God and an independent prophet in the line of Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zarathustra, Buddha, Mohammed, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

As I don't believe in trinity, "manifestation of God" means that Jesus is not God, but perfectly reflects God's power and wisdom as a clean mirror reflects the sunlight (yet the sun never touches or enters the mirror). Man can only see God through His manifestations, not directly, as God is perfectly transcendent.

Likewise, it's not always 100% clear whether a manifestation of God speaks as the prophet, or directly speaks God's word. You can that in case of OT prophets or Quran, where the speech changes from direct word of God to the prophet. If Jesus said he was God, He was right.

Jesus was born by the virgin Mary and fathered by the Holy Spirit. But I am not 100% sure if that means that the man Jesus was fathered that way, or just Jesus, the manifestation of God. Jesus, as all independent prophets, was born with hidden wisdom, and was gifted with a special spirit.
Click to expand...

The difference between Jesus and those others is that Jesus never sinned, and his teachings were 100 percent pure and perfect.

Muhammed, Abraham, Noah, Moses, etc were all sinners.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The difference between Jesus and those others is that Jesus never sinned, and his teachings were 100 percent pure and perfect.

Muhammed, Abraham, Noah, Moses, etc were all sinners.
Click to expand...

I'd say that all of them were sinless the moment they received their respective revelation.
 
German guy said:
I'd say that all of them were sinless the moment they received their respective revelation.
Click to expand...

That's not really true. Muhammed had many wives, which included widows of the women he killed, and a 14 year old girl. Moses disobeyed God, and thus was not allowed to enter the promised land. Only Jesus was perfect.
 
Somebody who lived a perfect life and was therefore innocent at all times in every way, yet suffered the most severe penalty as a criminal. This was all orchestrated by God in order to allow members of the human race to be offered acquittal for our wrong doing while still satisfying the demands of divine justice.

Prior to his birth is where it gets complicated for some involving issues such as God existing outside of the time-space continuum whereas we, with our limited perceptions (with the possible exception of Albert Einstein), tend to think chronologically and as time being constant and progressive. The Bible makes it clear the Jesus existed in another realm before becoming human.

Furthermore, there seems to be a multidimensional aspect to God's personhood that many have trouble getting our minds around understandably using our own limited understanding as our only reference. Its also clear from the Bible Jesus is credited with numerous divine attributes including being worthy of worship, having no beginning and creating everything that exists.

The important thing is to first be honest and acknowledge none of us are good based on God's standards. Divine justice demands the ultimate price be paid for our wrong doings. Through God's plan of substitution, identification and accepting God's offer to become part of the body of Christ; Jesus' crucifixion can be applied as full penalty for our wrong doings and his righteousness applied to us.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom