Discussion with Blackdog on the Divinity of Christ.

RGacky3 · Jan 10, 2013

SMTA said:
JW OP calls out Blackdog in post.

Blackdog beats OP to a pulp numerous times.

JW OP, even dying from mortal wounds still unable to see that he is wrong, and has been hammered.

JW OP still unable to recognize that blind tenacity, while admirable, does not help a losing position.

Blackdog declared winner due to common sense, correct interpretation, and just plain being right.

Explain where Blackdog actually beat me?

Is it the times he simply ignored all the scriptural evidence? Or is it the time he posted a couple obscure scriptures which I responded to, and which responses he could not refute.

Or the fact that he just ignored the fact that if it were true it would not be so obscure in the bible and the bible would not constantly seam to be saying the opposite.

As far as I can see he didn't show anything, all he did was ignore all the evidence.

Black Dog · Jan 10, 2013

RGacky3 said:
Explain where Blackdog actually beat me?

Is it the times he simply ignored all the scriptural evidence? Or is it the time he posted a couple obscure scriptures which I responded to, and which responses he could not refute.

Or the fact that he just ignored the fact that if it were true it would not be so obscure in the bible and the bible would not constantly seam to be saying the opposite.

As far as I can see he didn't show anything, all he did was ignore all the evidence.

The only thing I ignored was your incorrect JW translations of scripture. Thousands of years of biblical study is wrong because you say so? No.

You say you are using scripture and yet the interpretation by the majority of learned scholars and respected theologians is wrong because Jesus never said it directly according to JW teachings?

I respect the tenacity to which you cling to your perverted translations and follow JW teachings. This however makes them no less a fake religion started by a con man who to this day is an earlier version of Scientology.

The answer to the question is, "No. It is not Christian." Like all non-Christian cults, the Jehovah's Witness organization distorts the essential doctrines of Christianity. It denies the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. This alone makes it non-Christian. To support its erring doctrines, the Watchtower organization (which is the author and teacher of all official Jehovah's Witness theology), has even altered the Bible to make it agree with its changing and non-Christian teachings. - Is the Jehovah's Witness religion Christian? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Isaiah wrote about seeing Jehovah in Isaiah 6:1-10.
In John 12:31-42, we are told that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke of Him
In Exodus 34:14 we are to worship no one but Jehovah.
In Hebrews 1:6 the angels worship Christ.
In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is called the first and the last (confirmed in Revelation 1:8),
but in Revelation 22:13 Christ is the first and the last.

In Matthew 1:23, Christ is called “Immanuel,” which means “God with us.”
When Thomas touched Jesus' wounds, after the resurrection, he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some JW’s say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said “my Lord,” but was referring to God (Jehovah) when he said “my God.” Instead, Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And Christ did not correct him! Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ when it states that in Him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” (New World Translation). Stephen called Jesus “Lord” (Acts 7:59,60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 12:3). “Lord” in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It is evident from this that Christ the Lord (kurios) is Jehovah God.

Jesus is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt. 14:33), and yet only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone (Matt. 4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Jesus in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael, how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev. 19:10)? If Christ were not God, then worshipping Him would be idolatrous.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r005.html

It goes on and there are many sites. You however still try to deny through improper translation and wrongful manipulation of the Greek as I showed earlier but you refuse to comment on.

The only thing I am avoiding is the un-Christian doctrine of the JW and their incorrect changes and interpretations of the Bible.

You should read this as well...

How Can Anyone Believe Jesus is God? | Determining Truth

gilbertc1908 · Jan 10, 2013

RGacky3 said:
There are things that are obvious and clear which people don't accept ... For example it's pretty obvious and clear that scientific racism is false, yet people cling on to it, I mean it is almost abundantly clear that the New Testiment would be against war, nationalism, militarism, class systems and so on, yet many christians are all pro war.

The reason for this is, in my opinion, constantinian christianity, i.e. when Christianity got taken up by the Roman Empire, it got infused with all sorts of non christian doctrines and practices, which became Orthodox.

I think for most people the trinity doctrine isn't the reason they are christians, but they believe it just because its Orthodoxy, just like the believe in the Augustinian "just war" philosophy, which is diametricly opposed to New Testiment Christianity.

What is an example of a Christian dogma/tenant that was part of the Constantinan infusion? I think this a very interesting idea.

I am sure there are far more people who find Christianity impossible to believe BECAUSE of the trinitarian dogma than came to believe Christianity BECAUSE of it.

You will have to explain to me specifically how Augustine is diametrically opposed to Christ and the New Testament in reference to what you are calling "the Augustinian "just war" philosopy"?

SMTA · Jan 10, 2013

RGacky3 said:
Explain where Blackdog actually beat me?

Is it the times he simply ignored all the scriptural evidence? Or is it the time he posted a couple obscure scriptures which I responded to, and which responses he could not refute.

Or the fact that he just ignored the fact that if it were true it would not be so obscure in the bible and the bible would not constantly seam to be saying the opposite.

As far as I can see he didn't show anything, all he did was ignore all the evidence.

Do not be dishonest about your Jehovah Witness beliefs.

If you lie and shield them, your dishonesty precludes any debate, period.

RGacky3 · Jan 10, 2013

Blackdog said:
The only thing I ignored was your incorrect JW translations of scripture. Thousands of years of biblical study is wrong because you say so? No.

You say you are using scripture and yet the interpretation by the majority of learned scholars and respected theologians is wrong because Jesus never said it directly according to JW teachings?

I respect the tenacity to which you cling to your perverted translations and follow JW teachings. This however makes them no less a fake religion started by a con man who to this day is an earlier version of Scientology.

The answer to the question is, "No. It is not Christian." Like all non-Christian cults, the Jehovah's Witness organization distorts the essential doctrines of Christianity. It denies the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. This alone makes it non-Christian. To support its erring doctrines, the Watchtower organization (which is the author and teacher of all official Jehovah's Witness theology), has even altered the Bible to make it agree with its changing and non-Christian teachings. - Is the Jehovah's Witness religion Christian? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Isaiah wrote about seeing Jehovah in Isaiah 6:1-10.
In John 12:31-42, we are told that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory and spoke of Him
In Exodus 34:14 we are to worship no one but Jehovah.
In Hebrews 1:6 the angels worship Christ.
In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah is called the first and the last (confirmed in Revelation 1:8),
but in Revelation 22:13 Christ is the first and the last.

In Matthew 1:23, Christ is called “Immanuel,” which means “God with us.”
When Thomas touched Jesus' wounds, after the resurrection, he exclaimed, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). There is no basis whatsoever for saying, as some JW’s say, that Thomas was referring to Christ when he said “my Lord,” but was referring to God (Jehovah) when he said “my God.” Instead, Thomas called Christ both his Lord and his God. And Christ did not correct him! Colossians 2:9 clearly confirms the deity of Christ when it states that in Him “all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily” (New World Translation). Stephen called Jesus “Lord” (Acts 7:59,60), and we are to confess Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9; I Cor. 12:3). “Lord” in these verses is Kurios, which is the Greek word for Jehovah in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament. It is evident from this that Christ the Lord (kurios) is Jehovah God.

Jesus is worshipped by the angels (Heb. 1:6) and by man (Matt. 14:33), and yet only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 34:14). Christ Himself said that worship is due to God alone (Matt. 4:10), and yet He accepted worship. If Jesus in His pre-existent state were the archangel Michael, how could He have received worship, since angels are not allowed to receive worship (Rev. 19:10)? If Christ were not God, then worshipping Him would be idolatrous.

How do Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings about Christ compare with Scriptures?

It goes on and there are many sites. You however still try to deny through improper translation and wrongful manipulation of the Greek as I showed earlier but you refuse to comment on.

The only thing I am avoiding is the un-Christian doctrine of the JW and their incorrect changes and interpretations of the Bible.

You should read this as well...

How Can Anyone Believe Jesus is God? | Determining Truth

I didn't comment on the translation because I wasn't using a Jehovahs Witness bible!!!! How many times do I have to say that.

You have not responded to any of the scriptures I posted, not one, you claim you're not responding to an interpretation, but I never GAVE an interpretation, I just posted the scripture, the meanings of those scriptures are clear. I've dealt with Immanuel argument, I've dealt with the Thomas argument, and I will respond to your one last bastion (Hebrews 1:6), after you've dealt with all my other arguments and refutations of your other arguments

I'm not gonna start reading up on whatever you want to post, this is a debate, meaning it's your job to deal with my evidence, refute my refutations of your evidence and present evidence of your own.

Also in the septuagent the word Kurios is not the word for Jehovah, it means "lord," that's just how they translate the divine name, that does not mean that lord isn't used other than for the almighty god, just as the word god.

Now I'll respond to Hebrews 1:6 when you make an attempt at refuting my arguments and my refutations of your previous arguments ...

RGacky3 · Jan 10, 2013

gilbertc1908 said:
What is an example of a Christian dogma/tenant that was part of the Constantinan infusion? I think this a very interesting idea.

I am sure there are far more people who find Christianity impossible to believe BECAUSE of the trinitarian dogma than came to believe Christianity BECAUSE of it.

You will have to explain to me specifically how Augustine is diametrically opposed to Christ and the New Testament in reference to what you are calling "the Augustinian "just war" philosopy"?

I would argue that Augustinians "just war" goes against jesus' teachings to be peacemakers, that christians do not fight, do not take up weapons, do not harm others, and the fact that the early church was vihamently pacifist.

The trinity was the main thing, you also have the fact that it becomes a state religion, and there are other things, but for another thread.

RGacky3 · Jan 10, 2013

Anyway, just to be clear, Hebrews 1:6 the word "worship" means literally "do homage" and is used in Matthew 18:26 when the slave begs the king to let his debt go, The slave "worships" or does obesence or homage to, obviously he isn't doing it because he thinks the King is God ... so in the same way that word, in greek doesn't have that connotation necessarily.

Also read the first scriptures of Hebrews (New International Version)

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The Son Superior to Angels

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[a]?
Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?

He BECAME superior to the angels, and he is a representation of God, and God APPOINTED him, and God made the universe through him, and in verse 6 God brings his firstBORN into the world.

Honestly now.

Now you can deal with all of the rest of my arguments and scriptual evidence.

Black Dog · Jan 10, 2013

RGacky3 said:
I didn't comment on the translation because I wasn't using a Jehovahs Witness bible!!!! How many times do I have to say that.

How many times do I have to repeat your interpretation are the teaching s of the JW. Where my inturpritations can be backed up by 2000 years of Christian study, your was rejected. Which is why you can post no collaborating evidence from anything but JW sources. Or in your case so far 0. So anytime I point this out and why it is wrong, and provide a source, you can only say it's YOUR logic. Sorry again this will not float.

RGacky3 said:
You have not responded to any of the scriptures I posted, not one, you claim you're not responding to an interpretation, but I never GAVE an interpretation, I just posted the scripture, the meanings of those scriptures are clear. I've dealt with Immanuel argument, I've dealt with the Thomas argument, and I will respond to your one last bastion (Hebrews 1:6), after you've dealt with all my other arguments and refutations of your other arguments

This is an out and out lie...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...lackdog-divinity-christ-2.html#post1061334149
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...lackdog-divinity-christ-2.html#post1061334501

That is pretty dishonest of you.

RGacky3 said:
I'm not gonna start reading up on whatever you want to post, this is a debate, meaning it's your job to deal with my evidence, refute my refutations of your evidence and present evidence of your own.

I did respond and refuted it. As shown above. Your response to it was to repeat the same answers you had already given with no supporting sources or evidence other than your JW interpretations which I have already shown toe be wrong.

RGacky3 said:
Also in the septuagent the word Kurios is not the word for Jehovah, it means "lord," that's just how they translate the divine name, that does not mean that lord isn't used other than for the almighty god, just as the word god.

kýrios – properly, a person exercising absolute ownership rights; lord (Lord)...

c. this title is given α. to God, the ruler of the universe (so the Sept. for אֲדֹנָי, אֱלוהַּ, אֱלֹהִים, יְהוָה, and יָהּ; (the term κύριος is used of the gods from Pindar and Sophocles down, but "the address κύριε, used in prayer to God, though frequent in Epictetus does not occur (so far as I am aware) in any heathen writing before the apostolic times; sometimes we find κύριε ὁ Θεός, and once (2, 7, 12) he writes κύριε ἐλέησόν (Lightfoot on Philippians, p. 314 note{3}))) — both with the article, ὁ κύριος: Matthew 1:22 (R G); ; Mark 5:19; Luke 1:6, 9, 28, 46; Acts 7:33; Acts 8:24; Acts 11:21; 2 Timothy 1:16, 18 (but see ἔλεος, 3); Hebrews 8:2; James 4:15; James 5:15; Jude 1:5 (R G), etc.; and without the article (cf. Winers Grammar, 124 (118); Buttmann, 88f (77f)): Matthew 21:9; Matthew 27:10; Mark 13:20; Luke 1:17, 38, 58, 66; Luke 2:9, 23, 26, 39; Acts 7:49; Hebrews 7:21; Hebrews 12:6; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 2:9; Jude (5 T Tr text WH text), 9; κύριος τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καί τῆς γῆς, Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21; Acts 17:24; κύριος τῶν κυριευόντων, 1 Timothy 6:15; κύριος ὁ Θεός, see Θεός, 3, p. 288a (and below); κύριος ὁ Θεός ὁ παντοκράτωρ, Revelation 4:8; κύριος σαβαώθ, Romans 9:29; ἄγγελος and ὁ ἄγγελος κυρίου, Matthew 1:20; Matthew 2:13, 19; Matthew 28:2; Luke 1:11; Luke 2:9; Acts 5:19; Acts 8:26; Acts 12:7; πνευαμα κυρίου, Luke 4:18; Acts 8:39; with prepositions: ὑπό (R G add the article) κυρίου, Matthew 1:22; Matthew 2:15; παρά κυρίου, Matthew 21:42 and Mark 12:11, from Psalm 117:23 (); παρά κυρίῳ, 2 Peter 3:8. β. to the Messiah; and that αα. to the Messiah regarded universally: Luke 1:43; Luke 2:11; Matthew 21:3; Matthew 22:45; Mark 11:3; Mark 12:36; Luke 19:34; Luke 20:44. ββ. to Jesus as the Messiah, since by his death he acquired a special ownership in mankind, and after his resurrection was exalted to a partnership in the divine administration (this force of the word when applied to Jesus appears especially in Acts 10:36; Romans 14:8; 1 Corinthians 7:22; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Philippians 2:9-11): Ephesians 4:5; with the article ὁ κύριος, Mark 16:19; Acts 9:1; Romans 14:8; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 6:13; 1 Corinthians 7:10, 12, 34; 1 Corinthians 9:5, 14; 1 Corinthians 10:22; 1 Corinthians 11:26; ( G L T Tr WH); Philippians 4:5; (2 Timothy 4:22 T Tr WH); Hebrews 2:3 (cf. Hebrews 2:7ff); James 5:7, etc. after his resurrection Jesus is addressed by the title ὁ κύριος μου καί ὁ Θεός μου, John 20:28. ἀπό τοῦ κυρίου, 1 Corinthians 11:23; 2 Corinthians 5:6; πρός τόν κύριον 2 Corinthians 5:8; ὁ κύριος Ἰησοῦς, Acts 1:21; Acts 4:33; Acts 16:31; Acts 20:35; 1 Corinthians 11:23; (1 Corinthians 16:23 T Tr WH); 2 Corinthians 1:14; (2 Timothy 4:22 Lachmann); Revelation 22:20; ὁ κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, 1 Corinthians 16:22 (R; 23 R G L); 2 Corinthians 13:13 (14) (WH brackets Χριστός); Ephesians 1:2; 2 Timothy 4:22 (R G), etc.; κύριος ἡμῶν, 1 Timothy 1:14; 2 Timothy 1:8; Hebrews 7:14; 2 Peter 3:15; Revelation 11:15, etc.; with Ἰησοῦς added (L T Tr WH in 1 Thessalonians 3:11 and 13); Hebrews 13:20; Revelation 22:21 (L T Tr (yet without ἡμῶν)); so with Χριστός, Romans 16:18 (G L T Tr WH); and Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, 1 Thessalonians 1:3 (cf. Buttmann, 155 (136)); 1 Thessalonians 3:11 (R G), (Rec.); ; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 14, 16; 2 Thessalonians 3:6 ((ἡμῶν)); 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Corinthians 1:3; Galatians 6:18 (WH brackets ἡμῶν); Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 6:24; Romans 16:24 (R G); 1 Timothy 6:3, 14; Philemon 1:25 (T WH omit ἡμῶν); Philippians 4:23 (G L T Tr WH omit ἡμῶν), etc.; Ἰησοῦς Χριστός ὁ κύριος ἡμῶν, Romans 1:4; and Χριστός Ἰησης ὁ κύριος (ἡμῶν), Colossians 2:6; Ephesians 3:11; 1 Timothy 1:2; 2 Timothy 1:2; ὁ κύριος καί ὁ σωτήρ, 2 Peter 3:2 (cf. Buttmann, 155 (136)); with Ἰησοῦς Χριστός added, 2 Peter 3:18; without the article, simply κύριος: 1 Corinthians 7:22, 25; 1 Corinthians 10:21; 1 Corinthians 16:10; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 2 Corinthians 12:1; 2 Timothy 2:24; James 5:11; 2 Peter 3:10; κύριος κυρίων, i. e. Supreme Lord (cf. Winers Grammar, § 36, 2; (Buttmann, § 123, 12)): Revelation 19:16 (cf. in α. above; of God, Deuteronomy 10:17); with prepositions: ἀπό κυρίου, Colossians 3:24; κατά κύριον, 2 Corinthians 11:17; πρός κύριον, 2 Corinthians 3:16; σύν κυρίῳ, 1 Thessalonians 4:17; ὑπό κύριον, 2 Thessalonians 2:13; on the phrase ἐν κυρίῳ, frequent in Paul, and except in his writings found only in Revelation 14:13, see ἐν, I. 6 b., p. 211b. The appellation ὁ κύριος, applied to Christ, passed over in Luke and John even into historic narrative, where the words and works of Jesus prior to his resurrection are related: Luke 7:13; Luke 10:1; Luke 11:39; Luke 12:42; Luke 13:15; Luke 17:5; Luke 22:31 (R G L Tr brackets); John 4:1 (here T Tr marginal reading Ἰησοῦς); John 6:23; John 11:2. There is nothing strange in the appearance of the term in the narrative of occurrences after his resurrection: Luke 24:34; John 20:2, 18, 20, 25; John 21:7, 12. - Strong's Greek: 2962.

RGacky3 said:
Now I'll respond to Hebrews 1:6 when you make an attempt at refuting my arguments and my refutations of your previous arguments ...

I already have, twice.

RGacky3 · Jan 10, 2013

Blackdog said:
How many times do I have to repeat your interpretation are the teaching s of the JW. Where my inturpritations can be backed up by 2000 years of Christian study, your was rejected. Which is why you can post no collaborating evidence from anything but JW sources. Or in your case so far 0. So anytime I point this out and why it is wrong, and provide a source, you can only say it's YOUR logic. Sorry again this will not float.

I havn't posted any JW sources, all my sources are from a non JW bible.

This is an out and out lie...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...lackdog-divinity-christ-2.html#post1061334149
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...lackdog-divinity-christ-2.html#post1061334501

That is pretty dishonest of you.

You did not respond to any of these

John 14:28,
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

Mark 13:32
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

+all the scriptures where he says he is Gods son and sent by God

Obviously they are different, not equal, different in authority, different in knowlege.

Now either Jesus was a giant dick, lying to all his apostles about his true nature, OR he was telling the truth and he was Gods son and not equal to God.

Revelation 1:1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Jesus RECIEVES the revelation from God (after he's in heaven).

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.

After Jesus is in heaven with God, he is still subject to God.

1 Corinthians 15:27,28
For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

God gives Christ authority, but not over God, and then Christ gives it back to God, obviously they are 2 seperate beings with different authority ... again after Jesus is in heaven.

As well as Collossians 1:15, which you havn't responded too.

You also havn't shown that the scripture in Isaiah should be interpreted to mean that the messiah would be God (unless, every Jewish interpretation of that scripture is wrong).

And you havn't explained why the word "god" being used for people other than Jehovah the almighty God doesn't deal with the doubting thomas issue

I did respond and refuted it. As shown above. Your response to it was to repeat the same answers you had already given with no supporting sources or evidence other than your JW interpretations which I have already shown toe be wrong.

The evidence is the scriptures themselves, and as I showed above, those arguments you havn't even touched.

kýrios – properly, a person exercising absolute ownership rights; lord (Lord)...

c. this title is given α. to God, the ruler of the universe (so the Sept. for אֲדֹנָי, אֱלוהַּ, אֱלֹהִים, יְהוָה, and יָהּ; (the term κύριος is used of the gods from Pindar and Sophocles down, but "the address κύριε, used in prayer to God, though frequent in Epictetus does not occur (so far as I am aware) in any heathen writing before the apostolic times; sometimes we find κύριε ὁ Θεός, and once (2, 7, 12) he writes κύριε ἐλέησόν (Lightfoot on Philippians, p. 314 note{3}))) — both with the article, ὁ κύριος: Matthew 1:22 (R G); ; Mark 5:19; Luke 1:6, 9, 28, 46; Acts 7:33; Acts 8:24; Acts 11:21; 2 Timothy 1:16, 18 (but see ἔλεος, 3); Hebrews 8:2; James 4:15; James 5:15; Jude 1:5 (R G), etc.; and without the article (cf. Winers Grammar, 124 (118); Buttmann, 88f (77f)): Matthew 21:9; Matthew 27:10; Mark 13:20; Luke 1:17, 38, 58, 66; Luke 2:9, 23, 26, 39; Acts 7:49; Hebrews 7:21; Hebrews 12:6; 1 Peter 1:25; 2 Peter 2:9; Jude (5 T Tr text WH text), 9; κύριος τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καί τῆς γῆς, Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21; Acts 17:24; κύριος τῶν κυριευόντων, 1 Timothy 6:15; κύριος ὁ Θεός, see Θεός, 3, p. 288a (and below); κύριος ὁ Θεός ὁ παντοκράτωρ, Revelation 4:8; κύριος σαβαώθ, Romans 9:29; ἄγγελος and ὁ ἄγγελος κυρίου, Matthew 1:20; Matthew 2:13, 19; Matthew 28:2; Luke 1:11; Luke 2:9; Acts 5:19; Acts 8:26; Acts 12:7; πνευαμα κυρίου, Luke 4:18; Acts 8:39; with prepositions: ὑπό (R G add the article) κυρίου, Matthew 1:22; Matthew 2:15; παρά κυρίου, Matthew 21:42 and Mark 12:11, from Psalm 117:23 (); παρά κυρίῳ, 2 Peter 3:8. β. to the Messiah; and that αα. to the Messiah regarded universally: Luke 1:43; Luke 2:11; Matthew 21:3; Matthew 22:45; Mark 11:3; Mark 12:36; Luke 19:34; Luke 20:44. ββ. to Jesus as the Messiah, since by his death he acquired a special ownership in mankind, and after his resurrection was exalted to a partnership in the divine administration (this force of the word when applied to Jesus appears especially in Acts 10:36; Romans 14:8; 1 Corinthians 7:22; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Philippians 2:9-11): Ephesians 4:5; with the article ὁ κύριος, Mark 16:19; Acts 9:1; Romans 14:8; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 6:13; 1 Corinthians 7:10, 12, 34; 1 Corinthians 9:5, 14; 1 Corinthians 10:22; 1 Corinthians 11:26; ( G L T Tr WH); Philippians 4:5; (2 Timothy 4:22 T Tr WH); Hebrews 2:3 (cf. Hebrews 2:7ff); James 5:7, etc. after his resurrection Jesus is addressed by the title ὁ κύριος μου καί ὁ Θεός μου, John 20:28. ἀπό τοῦ κυρίου, 1 Corinthians 11:23; 2 Corinthians 5:6; πρός τόν κύριον 2 Corinthians 5:8; ὁ κύριος Ἰησοῦς, Acts 1:21; Acts 4:33; Acts 16:31; Acts 20:35; 1 Corinthians 11:23; (1 Corinthians 16:23 T Tr WH); 2 Corinthians 1:14; (2 Timothy 4:22 Lachmann); Revelation 22:20; ὁ κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, 1 Corinthians 16:22 (R; 23 R G L); 2 Corinthians 13:13 (14) (WH brackets Χριστός); Ephesians 1:2; 2 Timothy 4:22 (R G), etc.; κύριος ἡμῶν, 1 Timothy 1:14; 2 Timothy 1:8; Hebrews 7:14; 2 Peter 3:15; Revelation 11:15, etc.; with Ἰησοῦς added (L T Tr WH in 1 Thessalonians 3:11 and 13); Hebrews 13:20; Revelation 22:21 (L T Tr (yet without ἡμῶν)); so with Χριστός, Romans 16:18 (G L T Tr WH); and Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, 1 Thessalonians 1:3 (cf. Buttmann, 155 (136)); 1 Thessalonians 3:11 (R G), (Rec.); ; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 14, 16; 2 Thessalonians 3:6 ((ἡμῶν)); 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Corinthians 1:3; Galatians 6:18 (WH brackets ἡμῶν); Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 6:24; Romans 16:24 (R G); 1 Timothy 6:3, 14; Philemon 1:25 (T WH omit ἡμῶν); Philippians 4:23 (G L T Tr WH omit ἡμῶν), etc.; Ἰησοῦς Χριστός ὁ κύριος ἡμῶν, Romans 1:4; and Χριστός Ἰησης ὁ κύριος (ἡμῶν), Colossians 2:6; Ephesians 3:11; 1 Timothy 1:2; 2 Timothy 1:2; ὁ κύριος καί ὁ σωτήρ, 2 Peter 3:2 (cf. Buttmann, 155 (136)); with Ἰησοῦς Χριστός added, 2 Peter 3:18; without the article, simply κύριος: 1 Corinthians 7:22, 25; 1 Corinthians 10:21; 1 Corinthians 16:10; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 2 Corinthians 12:1; 2 Timothy 2:24; James 5:11; 2 Peter 3:10; κύριος κυρίων, i. e. Supreme Lord (cf. Winers Grammar, § 36, 2; (Buttmann, § 123, 12)): Revelation 19:16 (cf. in α. above; of God, Deuteronomy 10:17); with prepositions: ἀπό κυρίου, Colossians 3:24; κατά κύριον, 2 Corinthians 11:17; πρός κύριον, 2 Corinthians 3:16; σύν κυρίῳ, 1 Thessalonians 4:17; ὑπό κύριον, 2 Thessalonians 2:13; on the phrase ἐν κυρίῳ, frequent in Paul, and except in his writings found only in Revelation 14:13, see ἐν, I. 6 b., p. 211b. The appellation ὁ κύριος, applied to Christ, passed over in Luke and John even into historic narrative, where the words and works of Jesus prior to his resurrection are related: Luke 7:13; Luke 10:1; Luke 11:39; Luke 12:42; Luke 13:15; Luke 17:5; Luke 22:31 (R G L Tr brackets); John 4:1 (here T Tr marginal reading Ἰησοῦς); John 6:23; John 11:2. There is nothing strange in the appearance of the term in the narrative of occurrences after his resurrection: Luke 24:34; John 20:2, 18, 20, 25; John 21:7, 12. - Strong's Greek: 2962.

I already have, twice.

A: The people in the NT spoke Arameic not greek.
B: just because Lord is used as a replacement for YHWH in just one translation of the old testiment, doesn't mean that every instance of it other texts refers to YHWH .... that is a rediculous fallacy.

Black Dog · Jan 10, 2013

RGacky3 said:
Anyway, just to be clear, Hebrews 1:6 the word "worship" means literally "do homage" and is used in Matthew 18:26 when the slave begs the king to let his debt go, The slave "worships" or does obesence or homage to, obviously he isn't doing it because he thinks the King is God ... so in the same way that word, in greek doesn't have that connotation necessarily.

That is absolutly wrong...

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

You honestly expect people to believe the line "Let all God's angels worship him." does not have the proper connotation?

"But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says:
'And let all God's angels do obeisance to him" The New World Translation, 1981.

The problem with this verse in the JW Bible is with the word "obeisance." In the Greek, the word is "proskuneo." It means, worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, obeisance. Obeisance means, "bending the head or body or knee as a sign of reverence or submission or shame." While it is certainly true that people would bow down before Jesus in the Bible, the English word "obeisance" does not carry sufficiently the act of worship due Him because of His divine nature. Since the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus is God in flesh, they cannot have their Bible teach that Jesus was worshipped. Therefore, every single time that the word "proskuneo" is used in reference to Christ, it is translated as "obeisance" and never as worship. For proof of this, please see the CARM article The New World Translation and "Proskuneo" (worship) which has a chart of every occurrence of the Greek word and how the New World Translation renders it. - Heb. 1:6, "Let the angels do obeisance to him." | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

RGacky3 said:
Also read the first scriptures of Hebrews (New International Version)

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The Son Superior to Angels

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[a]?
Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?

He BECAME superior to the angels, and he is a representation of God, and God APPOINTED him, and God made the universe through him, and in verse 6 God brings his firstBORN into the world.

Honestly now.

The detailed development of the argument is now introduced. The point is to show the superiority of the agent of the new dispensation to the agents of the old - the angels and Moses. Christ's superiority to the angels is first discussed.

Being made so much better than the angels (τοσούτῳ κρείττων γενόμενος τῶν ἀγγέλων)

The informal and abrupt introduction of this topic goes to show that the writer was addressing Jewish Christians, who were familiar with the prominent part ascribed to angels in the O.T. economy, especially in the giving of the law. See on Galatians 3:9. For being made, rend. having become; which is to be taken in close connection with sat down, etc., and in contrast with ὢν being, Hebrews 1:3. It is not denied that the Son was essentially and eternally superior to the angels; but his glorification was conditioned upon his fulfillment of the requirements of his human state, and it is this that is emphasized. After having passed through the experience described in Philippians 2:6-8, he sat down on the right hand of the divine majesty as messianic sovereign, and so became or proved to be what in reality he was from eternity, superior to the angels. Τοσούτῳ - ὅσῳ so much - as. Never used by Paul. Κρείττων better, superior, rare in Paul, and always neuter and adverbial. In Hebrews thirteen times. See also 1 Peter 3:17; 2 Peter 2:21. Often in lxx. It does not indicate here moral excellence, but dignity and power. He became superior to the angels, resuming his preincarnate dignity, as he had been, for a brief period, less or lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:7). The superiority of Messiah to the angels was affirmed in rabbinical writings.

He hath by inheritance obtained (κεκληρονόμηκεν)

More neatly, as Rev., hath inherited, as a son. See Hebrews 1:2, and comp. Romans 8:17. For the verb, see on Acts 13:19, and see on 1 Peter 1:4.

More excellent (διαφορώτερον)

Διάφορος only once outside of Hebrews, Romans 12:6. The comparative only in Hebrews. In the sense of more excellent, only in later writers. Its earlier sense is different. The idea of difference is that which radically distinguishes it from κρείττων better. Here it presents the comparative of a comparative conception. The Son's name differs from that of the angels, and is more different for good.

Than they (παρ' αὐτοὺς)

Lit. beside or in comparison with them. Παρα, indicating comparison, occurs a few times in Luke, as Luke 3:13; Luke 13:2; Luke 18:4. In Hebrews always to mark comparison, except Hebrews 11:11, Hebrews 11:12. - Hebrews 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

RGacky3 said:

Now you can deal with all of the rest of my arguments and scriptual evidence.

Click to expand...

Already have... twice as I have already shown you.

Again as I have already stated and you cannot refute in any way does the NIV mention Jesus was at any time an Angle, ever.

Black Dog · Jan 10, 2013

RGacky3 said:
I havn't posted any JW sources, all my sources are from a non JW bible.

You have posted no sources to backup your incorrect interpretations at all. Why do you keep responding to something I did not say or imply?

RGacky3 said:
You did not respond to any of these

John 14:28,
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

Mark 13:32
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

+all the scriptures where he says he is Gods son and sent by God

You are a liar. You said...

You have not responded to any of the scriptures I posted, not one, you claim you're not responding to an interpretation, but I never GAVE an interpretation, I just posted the scripture, the meanings of those scriptures are clear. - RGacky3

Your dishonesty and twisting will be noted for future reference.

I did respond to your posting of lines of scripture. Taken out of context and interpreted using misguided and simply wrong JW teachings. You are also lying about not giving an interpretation. By the nature of this debate you are as I am. The only problem is you do not want to admit the true nature of your incorrect source.

RGacky3 said:
Obviously they are different, not equal, different in authority, different in knowlege.

They are different and yet the same.

RGacky3 said:
Revelation 1:1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Jesus RECIEVES the revelation from God (after he's in heaven).

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.

After Jesus is in heaven with God, he is still subject to God.

1 Corinthians 15:27,28
For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

God gives Christ authority, but not over God, and then Christ gives it back to God, obviously they are 2 seperate beings with different authority ... again after Jesus is in heaven.

As well as Collossians 1:15, which you havn't responded too.

You also havn't shown that the scripture in Isaiah should be interpreted to mean that the messiah would be God (unless, every Jewish interpretation of that scripture is wrong).

And you havn't explained why the word "god" being used for people other than Jehovah the almighty God doesn't deal with the doubting thomas issue

The evidence is the scriptures themselves, and as I showed above, those arguments you havn't even touched.

I have already addressed all of this from many different sources not just my opinion. You on the other hand have not.

RGacky3 said:
A: The people in the NT spoke Arameic not greek.

Ummm... Parts of the Books of Daniel and Ezra were originally written in Aramaic? Jeremiah 10:11 was a later insertion, surprisingly written in Aramaic? Individual words in Genesis and possibly Numbers and Job appear to be Aramaic in origin?

So what?

RGacky3 said:
B: just because Lord is used as a replacement for YHWH in just one translation of the old testiment, doesn't mean that every instance of it other texts refers to YHWH .... that is a rediculous fallacy.

So because you don't like it, it can't be true.

Sums up pretty much your whole argument.

gilbertc1908 · Jan 10, 2013

RGacky3 said:
I would argue that Augustinians "just war" goes against jesus' teachings to be peacemakers, that christians do not fight, do not take up weapons, do not harm others, and the fact that the early church was vihamently pacifist.

I'm asking specifically what is it that Augustine promotes within the context of the this chapter in the City of God that is diametrically opposed to Christ and the new testament?

RGacky3 said:
The trinity was the main thing, you also have the fact that it becomes a state religion, and there are other things, but for another thread.

Surely you are not suggesting that it is Constantine that "infuses" the concept of the Holy Trinity into Christianity? That would be historically refutable by simply citing content from the 300 years prior including Polycarp, Justin, Tertullian(as a Christian and later as a Montanist), Irenaeus, Denis of Alexandria, Clement, Hippolytus, Gregory Thaumaturgus and the actual term Trinity predates Nicaea by nearly 200 years.

Now this does not mean that the Trinity is either obvious or irrefutable it just means it is not a new concept in 325 added by Constantine.

And by the way as soon as Contantine is dead Christianity is rejected in favor of Arianism by Constantine's heir so there is not much of a continuum.

The Baron · Jan 10, 2013

So I started following this thread and the question asked in the original post “s Jesus the same as the God of the bible? (i.e. is he Yahweh)”?

What I have found interesting is that we seem to have a rather heated debate between what I believe is an actual Christian (Blackdog) and a Jehovah Witness (RGacky3).

Now, having said that let me state matter-of-factly that I do not know the religious beliefs of either individual…I’m just giving you the impressions I have formulated having followed this thread. And I apologize in advance if I have in anyway misrepresented the religious beliefs of either Blackdog or Rgacky3. As I said, I have only the impressions from this thread to base my beliefs upon.

And now that I am through with the formalities…back to the question of is Jesus God.

It has been my experience in dealing with Jehovah Witnesses that they simply discount the teachings of any Bible other than that of the New World Translation. As such, I have found it necessary when debating the deity of Christ with passionate, devoted and learned Jehovah Witness’s to debate His deity using nothing but the New World Translation. Yes, they changed much of it…but they didn’t change all of it.

For context, I will compare New World Translation verses with those of the New American Standard Bible, which I understand to be the most accurate, modern English translation of the Bible available today.

Genesis 16:7-13

“Later Jehovah’s angel found her at a fountain of waters in the wilderness, at the fountain on the way to Shur.
And he began to say: “Ha´gar, maidservant of Sar´ai, just where have you come from and where are you going?” To this she said: “Why, from Sar´ai my mistress I am running away.”
And Jehovah’s angel went on to say to her: “Return to your mistress and humble yourself under her hand.”
Then Jehovah’s angel said to her: “I shall greatly multiply your seed, so that it will not be numbered for multitude.”
Further Jehovah’s angel added to her: “Here you are pregnant, and you shall give birth to a son and must call his name Ish´ma•el; for Jehovah has heard your affliction.
As for him, he will become a zebra of a man. His hand will be against everyone, and the hand of everyone will be against him; and before the face of all his brothers he will tabernacle.”
Then she began to call the name of Jehovah, who was speaking to her: “You are a God of sight,” for she said: “Have I here actually looked upon him who sees me?” – NWT (v. 7-11)

“Now the angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur.
He said, "Hagar, Sarai's maid, where have you come from and where are you going?" And she said, "I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai."
Then the angel of the LORD said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority."
Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count."
The angel of the LORD said to her further,
"Behold, you are with child,
And you will bear a son;
And you shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.
"He will be a wild donkey of a man,
His hand will be against everyone,
And everyone's hand will be against him;
And he will live to the east of all his brothers."
Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" - NASB

Christ is called Jehovah’s angel and is recognized by Hagar as Jehovah. She even remarked that she lived after seeing Him as no one may see God and live (Exodus 33:20). Here, Jehovah made an exception as he has with Gideon (Judges 6:22-23), Moses (Exodus 33:11) and with Manoah and his wife (Judges 13:22).

Genesis 22:11-18

“But Jehovah’s angel began calling to him out of the heavens and saying: “Abraham, Abraham!” to which he answered: “Here I am!” And he went on to say: “Do not put out your hand against the boy and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.” At that Abraham raised his eyes and looked and there, deep in the foreground, there was a ram caught by its horns in a thicket. So Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up for a burnt offering in place of his son. And Abraham began to call the name of that place Je•ho´vah-ji´reh. This is why it is customarily said today: “In the mountain of Jehovah it will be provided.”
And Jehovah’s angel proceeded to call to Abraham the second time out of the heavens and to say: “‘By myself I do swear,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’” - NWT

“But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."
Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.
Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the LORD it will be provided."
Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,
and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,
indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
"In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." - NASB

Can an angel tell someone not to do what God has clearly told them to do? See Genesis 22:1-2.

Exodus 3:2-5

“Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why, here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was not consumed. At this Moses said: “Let me just turn aside that I may inspect this great phenomenon, as to why the thornbush is not burnt up. When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.” Then he said: “Do not come near here. Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.”” - NWT

“The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.
So Moses said, "I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up."
When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."
Then He said, "Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground." - NASB

It was Jehovah’s angel that appeared “in the midst of a thornbush” and God (upper-case “G”) who “called to him out of the midst of the thornbush”.

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The Baron · Jan 10, 2013

Numbers 22:22-35

“And the anger of God began to blaze because he was going; and Jehovah’s angel proceeded to station himself in the road to resist him. And he was riding upon his she-ass, and two attendants of his were with him.
And the ass got to see Jehovah’s angel stationed in the road with his drawn sword in his hand; and the ass tried to turn aside from the road that she might go into the field, but Ba´laam began to strike the ass in order to turn her aside to the road.
And Jehovah’s angel kept standing in the narrow way between the vineyards, with a stone wall on this side and a stone wall on that side.
And the she-ass kept seeing Jehovah’s angel and began to squeeze herself against the wall and so to squeeze Ba´laam’s foot against the wall; and he went beating her some more.
Jehovah’s angel now passed by again and stood in a narrow place, where there was no way to turn aside to the right or the left.
When the ass got to see Jehovah’s angel she now lay down under Ba´laam; so that Ba´laam’s anger blazed, and he kept beating the ass with his staff.
Finally Jehovah opened the mouth of the ass and she said to Ba´laam: “What have I done to you so that you have beaten me these three times?”
At this Ba´laam said to the ass: “It is because you have dealt ruthlessly with me. If only there were a sword in my hand, for now I should have killed you!”
Then the she-ass said to Ba´laam: “Am I not your she-ass that you have ridden upon all your life long until this day? Have I ever been used to do to you this way?” To which he said: “No!”
And Jehovah proceeded to uncover Ba´laam’s eyes, so that he saw Jehovah’s angel stationed in the road with his drawn sword in his hand. At once he bowed low and prostrated himself on his face.
Then Jehovah’s angel said to him: “Why have you beaten your she-ass these three times? Look! I—I have come out to offer resistance, because your way has been headlong against my will.
And the she-ass got to see me and tried to turn aside before me these three times. Supposing she had not turned aside from before me! For by now even you I should have killed, but her I should have preserved alive.”
At this Ba´laam said to Jehovah’s angel: “I have sinned, because I did not know that it was you stationed in the road to meet me. And now, if it is bad in your eyes, let me go my way back.”
But Jehovah’s angel said to Ba´laam: “Go with the men; and nothing but the word that I shall speak to you is what you may speak.” And Ba´laam continued going with the princes of Ba´lak.” – NWT

“But God was angry because he was going, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as an adversary against him. Now he was riding on his donkey and his two servants were with him.
When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way with his drawn sword in his hand, the donkey turned off from the way and went into the field; but Balaam struck the donkey to turn her back into the way.
Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path of the vineyards, with a wall on this side and a wall on that side.
When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pressed herself to the wall and pressed Balaam's foot against the wall, so he struck her again.
The angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place where there was no way to turn to the right hand or the left.
When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam; so Balaam was angry and struck the donkey with his stick.
And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?"

Then Balaam said to the donkey, "Because you have made a mockery of me! If there had been a sword in my hand, I would have killed you by now."
The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden all your life to this day? Have I ever been accustomed to do so to you?" And he said, "No."
Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way with his drawn sword in his hand; and he bowed all the way to the ground.
The angel of the LORD said to him, "Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was contrary to me.
"But the donkey saw me and turned aside from me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, I would surely have killed you just now, and let her live."
Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, "I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the way against me. Now then, if it is displeasing to you, I will turn back."

But the angel of the LORD said to Balaam, "Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I tell you." So Balaam went along with the leaders of Balak.” – NASB

Note that Ba’laan was Jehovah’s angel he “bowed low and prostrated himself on his face” as to worship. However, “angels” do not accept worship as Revelation 22:9 illustrates.

Jehovah, however, does accept worship.

Note also that Ba’laan “sinned” because he went against the will of Jehovah’s angel. You can sin to Jehovah’s will, but you can you sin to resist an angel’s will?

Judges 6:11-24

Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Oph´rah, which belonged to Jo´ash the Abi-ez´rite, while Gid´e•on his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Mid´i•an.

Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him and said to him: “Jehovah is with you, you valiant, mighty one.”

At this Gid´e•on said to him: “Excuse me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, then why has all this come upon us, and where are all his wonderful acts that our fathers related to us, saying, ‘Was it not out of Egypt that Jehovah brought us up?’ And now Jehovah has deserted us, and he gives us into the palm of Mid´i•an.”

Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: “Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Mid´i•an’s palm. Do I not send you?”

In turn he said to him: “Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel? Look! My thousand is the least in Ma•nas´seh, and I am the smallest in my father’s house.”

But Jehovah said to him: “Because I shall prove to be with you, and you will certainly strike down Mid´i•an as if one man.”

At this he said to him: “If, now, I have found favor in your eyes, you must also perform a sign for me that you are the one speaking with me.

Do not, please, move away from here until I come to you and I have brought out my gift and set it before you.” Accordingly he said: “I, for my part, shall keep sitting here until you return.”

And Gid´e•on went in and proceeded to make ready a kid of the goats and an e´phah of flour as unfermented cakes. The meat he put in the basket, and the broth he put in the cooking pot, after which he brought it out to him under the big tree and served it.

The angel of the [true] God now said to him: “Take the meat and the unfermented cakes and set them on the big rock there, and pour out the broth.” At that he did so.

Then Jehovah’s angel thrust out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unfermented cakes, and fire began to ascend out of the rock and to consume the meat and the unfermented cakes. As for Jehovah’s angel, he vanished from his sight.

Consequently Gid´e•on realized that it was Jehovah’s angel.
At once Gid´e•on said: “Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah’s angel face to face!”

But Jehovah said to him: “Peace be yours. Do not fear. You will not die.”

So Gid´e•on built an altar there to Jehovah, and it continues to be called Je•ho´vah-sha´lom down to this day. It is yet in Oph´rah of the Abi-ez´rites. - NWT

Then the angel of the LORD came and sat under the oak that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite as his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the wine press in order to save it from the Midianites.

The angel of the LORD appeared to him and said to him, "The LORD is with you, O valiant warrior."

Then Gideon said to him, "O my lord, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, 'Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian."

The LORD looked at him and said, "Go in this your strength and deliver Israel from the hand of Midian. Have I not sent you?"

He said to Him, "O Lord, how shall I deliver Israel? Behold, my family is the least in Manasseh, and I am the youngest in my father's house."

But the LORD said to him, "Surely I will be with you, and you shall defeat Midian as one man."

So Gideon said to Him, "If now I have found favor in Your sight, then show me a sign that it is You who speak with me. "Please do not depart from here, until I come back to You, and bring out my offering and lay it before You."

And He said, "I will remain until you return."

Then Gideon went in and prepared a young goat and unleavened bread from an ephah of flour; he put the meat in a basket and the broth in a pot, and brought them out to him under the oak and presented them.

The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread and lay them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And he did so.

Then the angel of the LORD put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened bread; and fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. Then the angel of the LORD vanished from his sight.

When Gideon saw that he was the angel of the LORD, he said, "Alas, O Lord GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face."

The LORD said to him, "Peace to you, do not fear; you shall not die."

Then Gideon built an altar there to the LORD and named it The LORD is Peace. To this day it is still in Ophrah of the Abiezrites. - NASB

Jehovah’s angel accepted the offering (worship) of Gideon which no angel of Jehovah does (see Revelation 22:9). Angels do not accept worship, however, Jehovah does.

Also note that Gideon recognized Jehovah’s angel as Jehovah and exclaimed that he had seen him face to face. Jehovah assured him that he would not die as no man may see the face of God and live (Exodus 33:20). Jehovah did make an exception here as with Moses (Exodus 33:11), Hagar (Genesis 16:13) and with Manoah and his wife (Judges 13:22).

Page 2 of 6

The Baron · Jan 10, 2013

Judges 13:2-24

“Meanwhile there happened to be a certain man of Zo´rah of the family of the Dan´ites, and his name was Ma•no´ah. And his wife was barren and had borne no child.

In time Jehovah’s angel appeared to the woman and said to her: “Look, now, you are barren and have borne no child. And you will certainly become pregnant and give birth to a son.

And now watch yourself, please, and do not drink wine or intoxicating liquor, and do not eat anything unclean.

For, look! you will be pregnant, and you will certainly give birth to a son, and no razor should come upon his head, because a Naz´i•rite of God is what the child will become on leaving the belly; and he it is who will take the lead in saving Israel out of the hand of the Phi•lis´tines.”

Then the woman went and said to her husband: “There was a man of the [true] God that came to me, and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of the [true] God, very fear-inspiring. And I did not ask him from just where he was, neither did he tell me his name.

But he said to me, ‘Look! You will be pregnant, and you will certainly give birth to a son. And now do not drink wine or intoxicating liquor, and do not eat any unclean thing, because a Naz´i•rite of God is what the child will become on leaving the belly until the day of his death.’”

And Ma•no´ah began to entreat Jehovah and say: “Excuse me, Jehovah. The man of the [true] God that you just sent, let him, please, come again to us and instruct us as to what we ought to do to the child that will be born.”

Accordingly the [true] God listened to the voice of Ma•no´ah, and the angel of the [true] God came again to the woman while she was sitting in the field, and Ma•no´ah her husband was not with her.

Immediately the woman hurried and ran and told her husband and said to him: “Look! The man that came the other day to me has appeared to me.”

At that Ma•no´ah got up and accompanied his wife and came to the man and said to him: “Are you the man that spoke to the woman?” to which he said: “I am.”

Then Ma•no´ah said: “Now let your words come true. What will become the child’s mode of life and his work?”

So Jehovah’s angel said to Ma•no´ah: “From everything that I mentioned to the woman she should keep herself.

Nothing at all that comes forth from the wine vine should she eat, and no wine or intoxicating liquor let her drink, and no unclean thing of any sort let her eat. Everything that I have commanded her let her keep.”

Ma•no´ah now said to Jehovah’s angel: “Let us, please, detain you and fix up a kid of the goats before you.”

But Jehovah’s angel said to Ma•no´ah: “If you detain me, I shall not feed myself on your bread; but if you will render up a burnt offering to Jehovah, you may offer it up.” For Ma•no´ah did not know that he was Jehovah’s angel.

Then Ma•no´ah said to Jehovah’s angel: “What is your name, that when your word comes true we shall certainly do you honor?”

However, Jehovah’s angel said to him: “Just why should you ask about my name, when it is a wonderful one?”

And Ma•no´ah proceeded to take the kid of the goats and the grain offering and to offer it upon the rock to Jehovah. And He was doing something in a wonderful way while Ma•no´ah and his wife were looking on.

So it came about that, as the flame ascended from off the altar heavenward, then Jehovah’s angel ascended in the flame of the altar while Ma•no´ah and his wife were looking on. At once they fell upon their faces to the earth.

And Jehovah’s angel did not repeat appearing to Ma•no´ah and his wife anymore. Then it was that Ma•no´ah knew that he had been Jehovah’s angel.

Consequently Ma•no´ah said to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.”

But his wife said to him: “If Jehovah had been delighted only to put us to death, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hand, and he would not have shown us all these things, and he would not as now have let us hear anything like this.”

Later the woman gave birth to a son and called his name Samson; and the boy kept getting bigger, and Jehovah continued to bless him.” - NWT

There was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren and had borne no children.

Then the angel of the LORD appeared to the woman and said to her, "Behold now, you are barren and have borne no children, but you shall conceive and give birth to a son.
"Now therefore, be careful not to drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing.
"For behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and no razor shall come upon his head, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to deliver Israel from the hands of the Philistines."

Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, "A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name.

"But he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'"

Then Manoah entreated the LORD and said, "O Lord, please let the man of God whom You have sent come to us again that he may teach us what to do for the boy who is to be born."

God listened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again to the woman as she was sitting in the field, but Manoah her husband was not with her.
So the woman ran quickly and told her husband, "Behold, the man who came the other day has appeared to me."

Then Manoah arose and followed his wife, and when he came to the man he said to him, "Are you the man who spoke to the woman?" And he said, "I am."

Manoah said, "Now when your words come to pass, what shall be the boy's mode of life and his vocation?"

So the angel of the LORD said to Manoah, "Let the woman pay attention to all that I said.

"She should not eat anything that comes from the vine nor drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing; let her observe all that I commanded."

Then Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, "Please let us detain you so that we may prepare a young goat for you."

The angel of the LORD said to Manoah, "Though you detain me, I will not eat your food, but if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD." For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, "What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?"

But the angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?"

So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering and offered it on the rock to the LORD, and He performed wonders while Manoah and his wife looked on.

For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground.

Now the angel of the LORD did not appear to Manoah or his wife again. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of the LORD.

So Manoah said to his wife, "We will surely die, for we have seen God."

But his wife said to him, "If the LORD had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have let us hear things like this at this time."

Then the woman gave birth to a son and named him Samson; and the child grew up and the LORD blessed him.” - NASB

Note that Jehovah’s angel accepted the offering (worship) from Manoah and his wife. Also note that Monah and his wife both “fell upon their faces to the earth” as to worship Jehovah’s angel. However, angels do not accept worship (Revelation 22:9). Only Jehovah accepts worship.

Also note that Monoah recognized Jehovah’s angel as Jehovah and exclaimed that he had seen him face to face (Exodus 33:20). Monoah’s wife assured him that they would not die (Exodus 33:20, as Jehovah accepted an offering from them.

Please note that Monoah and his wife recognized Jehovah’s angel as Jehovah.

Exodus 33:20

“And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.” – NWT

Please note these additional verses where Jehovah’s angel can be found in the Old Testament:

Genesis 31:11-13

Exodus 14:19

Exodus 23:20

Exodus 32:34

1 Chronicles 21:1-27

1 Kings 19:5-7

1 Kings 19:9-18

2 Kings 19:35

Zechariah 1:11

Zechariah 3:1

Page 3 of 6

The Baron · Jan 10, 2013

Isaiah 9:6

“For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” - NWT

“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” – NASB

Jesus is called “Mighty God”.

Jesus is called Eternal Father just as Jehovah is the Father. Jesus is also called eternal, a unique attribute of God.

Isaiah 10:20-21

And it will certainly occur in that day that those remaining over of Israel and those who have escaped of the house of Jacob will never again support themselves upon the one striking them, and they will certainly support themselves upon Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, in trueness. A mere remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.” – NWT

“Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.” - NASB

Here Jehovah is called “Mighty God” just as Jesus is called “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6.

Jeremiah 32:18

“the One exercising loving-kindness toward thousands, and repaying the error of the fathers into the bosom of their sons after them, the [true] God, the great One, the mighty One, Jehovah of armies being his name” - NWT

“who shows lovingkindness to thousands, but repays the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God The LORD of hosts is His name” - NASB

Jehovah is explicitly called “mighty One” (and not “Almighty”) just as Jesus is called mighty in Isaiah 9:6.

If Jesus is called “mighty God” and Jehovah is called “mighty God”, then who is Jesus.

And if Jehovah is “the Father” and Jesus is called “Eternal Father”, then who is Jehovah?

John 5:18

“On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.” - NWT

“For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” – NASB

The New World Translation, itself, states that by Jesus calling God his Father (The Son of God) he claimed equality with God.

John 1:18

“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.” – NWT

“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” - NASB

The original word for “God” that is used in both instances of this verse is “queon”, transliterated “Theos”. While the first “God” appears with a capital “G”, it is the same word spelled the second time with a lower case “G” in the original Greek.

Revelation 1:8

“I am the Al´pha and the O•me´ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” - NWT

“I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” - NASB

Jehovah is called “the Alpha and the Omega”. The “Alpha” and the “Omega” are the first and last letters in the Greek alphabet.

Revelation 2:8

“And to the angel of the congregation in Smyr´na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again]” - NWT

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this” - NASB

Jesus is called “the First and the Last”. This name is equated as “the Alpha and the Omega” in Revelation 22:13.

Revelation 1:17

“And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last” - NWT

“When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last” - NASB

Jesus is called “the First and the Last”. This name is equated as “the Alpha and the Omega” in Revelation 22:13.

Revelation 21:6

“And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Al´pha and the O•me´ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free.” - NWT

“Then He said to me, "It is done I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.” - NASB

Jesus states that He is “the Alpha and Omega”, just as Jehovah does in Revelation 1:8.
The speaker of these statements is made clear in Revelation 22:13, which begins, “I, Jesus…”

Jesus also equates “the Alpha and Omega” to the name “the beginning and the end”, just as he does in Revelation 22:13

Revelation 22:13

“I am the Al´pha and the O•me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” – NWT

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." - NASB

Jesus states that He is “the Alpha and Omega”, just as Jehovah does in Revelation 1:8.
The speaker of these statements is made clear in Revelation 22:13, which begins, “I, Jesus…”

If Jehovah is “the Alpha and the Omega” and Jesus is “the Alpha and the Omega”, then who is Jesus?

John 14:9

“Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” - NWT

“Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?” – NASB

Jesus claimed to be God.

Daniel 7:13

“I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One.” - NWT

“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.” - NASB

The name “Son of Man” is used prophetically of Jesus to refer to Himself and is used over 80 times in the New Testament. Jews of the day would not have missed the implication that Jesus was claiming to be God every time he called Himself by this name.

Please note Matthew 26:64-65…

Matthew 26:64-65

“Jesus said to him: “You yourself said [it]. Yet I say to YOU men, From henceforth YOU will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest ripped his outer garments, saying: “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? See! Now YOU have heard the blasphemy.” - NWT

“Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN. Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy” - NASB

The Jews of Jesus’ time understood that for Jesus to call Himself “The Son of Man” was to equate Himself with God. This is why the Jews tore their robes and accused Him of blasphemy.

Please note Luke 22:69-71

Luke 22:69-71

However, from now on the Son of man will be sitting at the powerful right hand of God.” At this they all said: “Are you, therefore, the Son of God?” He said to them: “YOU yourselves are saying that I am.” They said: “Why do we need further witness? For we ourselves have heard [it] out of his own mouth.” - NWT

“But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD."
And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."
Then they said, "What further need do we have of testimony? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth." - NASB

Again, Jesus equates Himself with God and it is recognized as such by the Jewish leaders.

Colossians 1:15

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation” - NWT

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” – NASB

Christ is equated with God.

Jehovah Witnesses will argue that this verse is proof that Christ is “created” and, therefore, can not be God.

However, as Colossians 1:18 states, “He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.”

Note that Christ is here called “the firstborn from the dead”. However we both know that this can not be the case as He had already raised Lazarus, the widow’s son and the daughter of Jairus.

As such, being called the “firstborn of all creation” does not stipulate chronology. Instead it stipulates preeminence, that Christ is above all Creation (something that isn’t possible if He were merely created).

Using the term “firstborn” to denote preeminence is not unique to this Scripture. It is also used in Psalm 89:27 in which David is called “firstborn” and is used within the limited scope to include the kings of all the Earth as David was not the firstborn of his brothers nor the first king.

Page 4 of 6

The Baron · Jan 10, 2013

John 20:28

In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” - NWT

“Thomas answered and said to Him, ‘My Lord and my God!’" - NASB

This verse occurs after the Crucifixion and Resurrection when Jesus appears to His disciples and they clearly recognize Him as God.

Page 5 of 6

Black Dog · Jan 10, 2013

Sorry Baron he refuses to discuss and will try to tell me I cannot use the teachings etc of the JW even though it is clear in his interpretations of the Bible. I recognized him as soon as he typed his first reply, and yet he still will not address this at all.

You and I both know why he will not, but he will not admit that either.

Don't waste your breath.

The Baron · Jan 10, 2013

Conclusion

Jehovah’s angel is Jehovah reasoning that:

1. In Genesis 16:7-13 Hagar recognizes that Jehovah’s angel is Jehovah and addresses Him as such and even exclaims that she lives although she has seen Him (Exodus 33:20).

2. In Genesis 22:11-18, Jehovah’s angel tells Abraham not to sacrifice his son which is something that Jehovah told him to do in Genesis 22:2. Abraham, who did not hesitate to bring his son to the place where he was told to sacrifice him as God instructed him to, did not question Jehovah’s angel’s instructions although they conflicted with Jehovah’s command. Why? Because Abraham recognized Jehovah’s angel as Jehovah.

Also, the angel then states in verse 12 that He knows Abraham is God-fearing as he did not attempt to spare his son from “me”. Jehovah’s angel could only make such a statement if Jehovah’s angel is Jehovah.

3. Exodus 3:2-5 notes that Jehovah’s angel is in the midst of the thornbush and it was God (note the use of the uppercase “G”) that called to Moses from the midst of the thornbush.

4. Numbers 22:22-35 details how Ba’laan worshipped Jehovah’s angel and how he “sinned” by resisting the will of Jehovah’s angel.

5. Judges 6:11-24 illustrates that Jehovah’s angel accepted worship just as Jehovah does, however, actual angels of God do not seek or accept worship (compare with Revelation 22:9).

It should also be noted that Gideon recognized Jehovah angel as Jehovah and feared for his life for he understood that no one can see God and live (see Exodus 33:20).

6. Judges 13:2-24, Jehovah’s angel is recognized by Manoah and his wife as Jehovah as Manoah worried that they would die for they had seen God (see Exodus 33:20). In addition, Jehovah’s angel accepted an offering (worship) from Manoah and his wife. And after accepting their offering, both Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground as to worship Jehovah’s angel. Something that no angel from Jehovah would seek or accept (see Revelation 22:9)

It is for these reasons that we can conclude using the Old Testament of the New World Translation that Jesus was active and recognized as Jehovah during Old Testament times.

Appendix

Revelation 22:9

“But he tells me: ‘Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who are prophets and of those who are observing the words of this scroll. Worship God.’” – NWT

Exodus 33:20

“And he added: “You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.” – NWT

Please note these additional verses where Jehovah’s angel can be found in the Old Testament:

Genesis 31:11-13

Exodus 14:19

Exodus 23:20

Exodus 32:34

1 Chronicles 21:1-27

1 Kings 19:5-7

1 Kings 19:9-18

2 Kings 19:35

Zechariah 1:11

Zechariah 3:1

Finally, with respect to the Holy Trinity, Jehovah Witnesses claim that it is not possible for it to exist as the Bible does not teach it. According to a Jehovah Witness publication, Should You Believe in the Trinity: Is Jesus Christ the Almighty God?, it states, “…that the word ‘Trinity’ is not found in the Bible…” reasoning, in part, that if the Bible does not mention the word “Trinity” then the idea of a “Holy Trinity” is simply not true.

If they are to be consistent, Jehovah Witnesses must then confess that the archangel Michael is not Jesus as nowhere in its pages does the Bible make such a claim.

Page 6 of 6

The Baron · Jan 10, 2013

"Don't waste your breath." - Blackdog

NOW you tell me...

Black Dog · Jan 10, 2013

The Baron said:
"Don't waste your breath." - Blackdog

NOW you tell me...

LOL sorry man. I just got in here a little bit ago and saw your first response and said oh no!

head of joaquin · Jan 11, 2013

Blackdog said:
It can be, but in this case I don't think it is. Like I said it says what it says. Of course that is just my opinion.

I appreciate that you don't think it is, but many Greek scholars have concluded otherwise. You can look up their conclusions.

Black Dog · Jan 11, 2013

head of joaquin said:
I appreciate that you don't think it is, but many Greek scholars have concluded otherwise. You can look up their conclusions.

I don't have to look up the minority opinion. 2000 years of research and adherence by the majority of scholars Greek and Biblical is good evidence as far as I am concerned.

head of joaquin · Jan 11, 2013

Blackdog said:
I don't have to look up the minority opinion. 2000 years of research and adherence by the majority of scholars Greek and Biblical is good evidence as far as I am concerned.

You don't understand the issue.

First, there was no quality Greek "research" 2000 years ago. Or even 500 years ago. Or even 200 years ago. Most modern scholarship doesn't take early research seriously. Certainly early translations are not of high quality.

Second, what you seem to be talking about is the theological tradition after Nicene, which is theological and has nothing to do with research or scholarship.

Third, I'm not sure what you mean by "minority opinion". Any Greek scholar who looks at the Thomas passage in Greek will conclude it's very odd grammatically. That isn't an issue. It just is. What it means is another matter.

That said, I don't therefore accept JW translations. They are obviously tendentious and not necessarily scholarly. But your objection that they aren't 2000 years old isn't valid. Like I say, the KJV is rife with obvious translation mistakes (not to mention that it's in Early Modern English, which makes it hard for modern people to understand). Earlier translations are even worse. So how old a translation is usually counts against it, not for it.

head of joaquin · Jan 11, 2013

The Baron said:
John 20:28

In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” - NWT

“Thomas answered and said to Him, ‘My Lord and my God!’" - NASB

This verse occurs after the Crucifixion and Resurrection when Jesus appears to His disciples and they clearly recognize Him as God.

Page 5 of 6

Try to keep up. The passage is grammatically ambiguous as any middling Greek scholar concludes. So it's meaning is in doubt. As is the other "evidence" you've given.

You would think that if Jesus were God, that the bible would just say so, and wouldn't be so coy. What the NT says, over and over and over again (and what Jesus says) is that Jesus is the Son of God. I conclude from this that Jesus is the Son of God. Why don't you?

Discussion with Blackdog on the Divinity of Christ.

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