Wherever Religious Belief is Waning the Society Is In Decline Also

obvious Child · Jan 22, 2013

LowDown said:
The trend in religious belief in the US since 1960 is documented in Murray's book, Coming Apart: the State of White America 1960-2010, in which the decline of lower class culture, including a loss of religious belief, is detailed. Along with a loss of faith, there has been a decline in industriousness, family (increased divorce and reduced marriage), and vocation. Much of this decline occurred before the economic downturn. Here is a review of the book:

Book Review: Coming Apart - WSJ.com

The loss of faith may not be a cause but rather a marker for loss of a number of things that enables people to rise in affluence in our society. Not surprisingly, upper class American whites have experienced no such losses. Murray's portrait of lower class white men sitting around drinking beer, watching TV, or playing video games as they draw disability or unemployment is a striking indication of cultural degeneration.

I suspect that the same picture applies to some other Western nations, especially in Europe.

Most of growth of atheism in the US has been in the lower classes, the uneducated, and often those in prison. There's the evidence that Murray provides, and then Vox Day provides evidence from surveys of British prisons that shows that the proportion of nonbelievers among prisoners is 2 or 3 times higher than the national average.

These "low church" atheists are responsible for the increasing proportion of atheists in America, and, I suspect, also in Europe. These are the ones that atheists include in the count when they want to prove that atheism is more popular. Of course, they leave them out of figures on education and income when they want to prove that atheists are more educated, intellegent, etc. It's the atheist dance.

How does this belief of your explain the deteriorating conditions in areas where religion isn't declining?

How does your belief explain how strongly secular areas are doing well?

LowDown · Jan 22, 2013

obvious Child said:
How does this belief of your explain the deteriorating conditions in areas where religion isn't declining?

How does your belief explain how strongly secular areas are doing well?

Such as?

RabidAlpaca · Jan 22, 2013

LowDown said:
Most of growth of atheism in the US has been in the lower classes, the uneducated, and often those in prison. There's the evidence that Murray provides, and then Vox Day provides evidence from surveys of British prisons that shows that the proportion of nonbelievers among prisoners is 2 or 3 times higher than the national average.

These "low church" atheists are responsible for the increasing proportion of atheists in America, and, I suspect, also in Europe. These are the ones that atheists include in the count when they want to prove that atheism is more popular. Of course, they leave them out of figures on education and income when they want to prove that atheists are more educated, intellegent, etc. It's the atheist dance.

I'd like to call a fact check on that. Considering atheism tends to be held by a very large portion of scientists and intellectuals, your assertion that it's an uneducated, lower class phenomenon is quite off base. Every study I've ever seen about faith in prisons has shown that christians are the best represented.

As fun as it may be for you to link the decline of our economy and society to the decline in religious behavior, there just aren't any facts to back it up.

obvious Child · Jan 22, 2013

LowDown said:
Such as?

Detroit & San Francisco in the US.

Nigeria and Liechtenstein globally.

This whole argument of yours seems like another poorly thought out Lowdown reinforcement of your existing beliefs based on your opinions rather than any actual evidence. You make a lot of these. And they never go well for you.

Furthermore, China's resurgence of religion has frankly nothing to do with its economic growth. The bulk of Chinese economic growth in the past twenty years occurred when religious growth was minimal.

Germany is moving quite quickly away from religion and its economy is stronger than ever. Prior to the economic crisis in Europe, Spain was doing quite well and Catholicism there has been on the wane for decades. Ireland fell apart for reasons entirely unrelated to religion (unless you want to blame Fianna Fail as a religion). Ireland's economic growth was also unrelated to religion as well.

LowDown · Jan 22, 2013

RabidAlpaca said:
I'd like to call a fact check on that. Considering atheism tends to be held by a very large portion of scientists and intellectuals, your assertion that it's an uneducated, lower class phenomenon is quite off base. Every study I've ever seen about faith in prisons has shown that christians are the best represented.

As fun as it may be for you to link the decline of our economy and society to the decline in religious behavior, there just aren't any facts to back it up.

I've already posted the evidence. I'll find some quotes directly from Murray's book later in the day.

Atheists have done quite a number on the public by misrepresenting themselves.

RabidAlpaca · Jan 22, 2013

obvious Child said:
Detroit & San Francisco in the US.

Nigeria and Liechtenstein globally.

This whole argument of yours seems like another poorly thought out Lowdown reinforcement of your existing beliefs based on your opinions rather than any actual evidence. You make a lot of these. And they never go well for you.

Furthermore, China's resurgence of religion has frankly nothing to do with its economic growth. The bulk of Chinese economic growth in the past twenty years occurred when religious growth was minimal.

Germany is moving quite quickly away from religion and its economy is stronger than ever. Prior to the economic crisis in Europe, Spain was doing quite well and Catholicism there has been on the wane for decades. Ireland fell apart for reasons entirely unrelated to religion (unless you want to blame Fianna Fail as a religion). Ireland's economic growth was also unrelated to religion as well.

No no, its not our horrible politicians or greedy business that's harming our economy, it's our lack of jesus. He's running to get the jesus-economy correlation data now.

obvious Child · Jan 22, 2013

LowDown said:
I've already posted the evidence.

No, you posted clips of some book that doesn't actually look at the reality of the global picture.

Atheists have done quite a number on the public by misrepresenting themselves.

Thanks for admitting you don't actually care what people actually write.

obvious Child · Jan 22, 2013

RabidAlpaca said:
No no, its not our horrible politicians or greedy business that's harming our economy, it's our lack of jesus. He's running to get the jesus-economy correlation data now.

Indeed. Ignore the parts of the world where religion is strong, but the economies are terrible and where religion is weak and the economies are strong. Just pretend those places don't exist.

German guy · Jan 22, 2013

I cannot help but once again advance my Baha'i view on it:

I believe religion and science should complement, not contradict each other. You can have material progress without moral progress without religion, but true progress should encompass both.

So I believe there can be economic and scientific progress without religion, but there will be a decline of values and social cohesion.

On the other side, religion in contradiction to science is mere superstition. There is no progress either. Society petrifies in empty rituals and superficial imitation of traditions. IMO, that's what happening in large parts of the Muslim world at the moment, although Islam once had a boosting effect on progress, when it was still in its "spring" (in the Middle Ages/Dark Ages, when the Muslim world grew to the top of the world and Europe was lying in deepest darkness).

Real progress, economically and for the society as a whole, can only happen when religion and science are in harmony. Neither religion shall put a death-grip on society with anti-scientific dogmas and political dominance, nor secularism shall cause society to fall into the mire of mere materialism.

LowDown · Jan 22, 2013

Here are some quotes from Murray's book.

First, a reminder of why religion contributes social capital to society:

Religious worshipers and people who say religion is very important to them are much more likely than other persons to visit friends, to entertain at home, to attend club meetings, and to belong to sports groups, professional and academic societies, school service groups, youth groups, service clubs, hobby or garden clubs, literary, art, discussion, and study groups, school fraternities and sororities, farm organizations, political clubs, nationality groups and other groups.

Thus, according to Murray, a loss of religion is to be regretted because it means a loss of many things that bind members of the community together and promote comity.

The central fact about American whites and religion since 1960 is that whites have become more secular across the board, in every socioeconomic class. But the whole story is more complicated and interesting than that.

Considering people who tell you flat out that they are not believers, the proportions in the upper and lower classes are now about the same, but they have increased more in the lower classes, from 3% to 22% between 1960 and 2010.

Then there are people who have disengaged from religion, the defacto seculars.

If we think in terms of disengagement from religion, Fishtown [lower class whites] led the way, and the divergence was significant. In the first half of the 1970s, about 10 percent age points separates Belmont [upper class whites] from Fishtown. Over the next three decades disengagement increased in Belmont to 41 percent in the last half of the 2000s. In Fishtown the religiously disengaged became a majority amounting to 60 percent.

In Belmont, the upper classes, those who attend religious services regularly, the core believers, fell 12%. In Fishtown, the lower classes, they fell 17% between 1960 and 2010.

Why do these figures not agree with conventional wisdom, which says that nonbelievers are more common among educated elites?

Murray offers two answers. One is that the people of Belmont are not synonymous with the elite. They represent the upper middle class. While the elite in universities and the like are very secular this is not true about the broader upper middle class. The other is that people conflate religious fundamentalists with the lower classes. While fundamentalism is more common in the lower classes it isn't true that fundamentalism is growing in working class America. In Murray's surveys fundamentalism did not increase in the lower classes between 1960 and 2010. Instead, the trend that typifies the lower class whites of America is a flight from religion that is more pronounced than in the white upper class.

Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010: Charles Murray: Amazon.com: Kindle Store

zgoldsmith23 · Jan 22, 2013

LowDown said:
Here are some quotes from Murray's book.

First, a reminder of why religion contributes social capital to society:

I'd like to see a correlation vs. causation on that. Is the reason they join those various activities because they are religious?

Thus, according to Murray, a loss of religion is to be regretted because it means a loss of many things that bind members of the community together and promote comity.

And ... this is a bad thing?

Considering people who tell you flat out that they are not believers, the proportions in the upper and lower classes are now about the same, but they have increased more in the lower classes, from 3% to 22% between 1960 and 2010.

Good, it's spreading. Problem?

Then there are people who have disengaged from religion, the defacto seculars.

Yeah .... them. :roll:

In Belmont, the upper classes, those who attend religious services regularly, the core believers, fell 12%. In Fishtown, the lower classes, they fell 17% between 1960 and 2010.

Not real cities, FYI. Oh and, in case you missed it: Note: "Belmont" and "Fishtown" are based on but do not perfectly represent real neighborhoods.
[/QUOTE]

Northern Light · Jan 22, 2013

It probably has to do more with societal happiness and empathy than religion. You don't need religion to tell you the difference between right and wrong, so I would like to see more studies that try to hone in on the reasons for growing apathy. I'm betting it would have something to do with the materialist world we live in.

LowDown · Jan 22, 2013

zgoldsmith23 said:
I'd like to see a correlation vs. causation on that. Is the reason they join those various activities because they are religious?

I think a more interesting question is why nonbelievers don't participate in these things as much.

And ... this is a bad thing?

Are you trying to imply that community and comity are bad things?

Good, it's spreading. Problem?

See the bit about community and comity above.

Yeah .... them. :roll:

Apparently you're attempting to make a point.

Not real cities, FYI. Oh and, in case you missed it: Note: "Belmont" and "Fishtown" are based on but do not perfectly represent real neighborhoods.

So?

Fisher · Jan 22, 2013

ChuckBerry said:
What other institutions create a sense of community like religion does? Having a strong religion does not necessarily mean a country will be strong and stable, but I can't think of any secular institution that is so good at organizing communities and creating a sense of fellowship.

One might wonder what the Middle East would look like without Islam. Because of its history of tribalism, the Middle East would likely be even more fractured and contentious than it is today.

With what is our society replacing religion?

I think it is interesting. It goes back to whether one thinks God should do something for them or whether they should be doing things for God.

zgoldsmith23 · Jan 22, 2013

LowDown said:
I think a more interesting question is why nonbelievers don't participate in these things as much.

Because they are busier perhaps? Not being involved is a personal choice.

Are you trying to imply that community and comity are bad things?
See the bit about community and comity above.

"Bad" things? Why "good" or "bad?" Why not just things?

Apparently you're attempting to make a point.

So?

So? They're not factual but "based on...". Texas Chainsaw Massacre is "based on true events" but we both know (or I hope you would) that it never actually happened.

skeptical hippo · Jan 22, 2013

LowDown said:
The discussion of religion in China got me to thinking...

Looking at those cultures where religious belief is on the decline we find that most of them share certain other characteristics:

Their population of the traditional ethnic group is shrinking.
Their economy is in the doldrums or is declining.
Their productivity is down.
Their birth rate is below the level required for replacement.
Their divorces are up and their marriage rate down.
They are increasingly being replaced by other, more religious ethnic groups.

I'm speaking here of Western cultures in Europe, of course.

In mostly secular Russia the population of ethnic Russians is falling off a cliff and the birth rate is abysmal, so much so that Putin is publically alarmed by it.

Yes, yes, this is not always true. Northern European cultures are less Christian but still economically viable. They do, however, have lower populations and lower birth rates, increased divorce and less marriage.

In the US the lower socioeconomic strata have 30% more non-believers now than in 1960. They are also increasingly unemployed or completely withdrawn from the work force, drawing disability, and doing nothing but sitting around watching TV or playing video games.*

US citizens further up the food chain are doing better and have also not become less religious since 1960.

Meanwhile, as previously discussed, in China, which has bursting economic growth, we find that all kinds of religions are increasing.

Of course, correlation is not exact and there are probably some exceptions. But still...

____________
*Yes, the increase in atheism celebrated by so many is mainly in the lower classes. And in prisons. :lol:

As a historian I can point out that you can go back in time and see this even in the past. The truth is that society is built upon religion. If you think that the church and state are separated take a long hard look at our laws we put in place. Then grab a bible and look up the ten commandments. Notice any similarities? How about look at our constitution? Anyone who says the founders weren't all that religious wasn't paying attention. The constitution is absolutely covered in Christianity. Religion is part of the human experience always has been since the dawn of time. When a society throws religion out the window it causes a lot of problems that have been evident in Russia since the rise of communism there.

Sherman123 · Jan 22, 2013

thebaron said:
As a historian I can point out that you can go back in time and see this even in the past. The truth is that society is built upon religion. If you think that the church and state are separated take a long hard look at our laws we put in place. Then grab a bible and look up the ten commandments. Notice any similarities? How about look at our constitution? Anyone who says the founders weren't all that religious wasn't paying attention. The constitution is absolutely covered in Christianity. Religion is part of the human experience always has been since the dawn of time. When a society throws religion out the window it causes a lot of problems that have been evident in Russia since the rise of communism there.

What evidence do you have for this remarkable claim? Firstly the Ten Commandments really have surprisingly few commandments in common with Western civil law, and those that are common are not ones that predate other legal traditions to say nothing of religious traditions. Secondly, no not all the founders were religious, many were extremely secular and their actual religiosity is questionable. Thirdly, Russia prior to the Soviet Union was a totalitarian Tsarist dictatorship with an established Orthodox Church, to say that Russia went downhill with the advent of Bolshevism is to flagrantly ignore history. Fourthly it is both debatable that religion has always been a part of human existence (we know little of what Cro-magnums thought about religion or superstition for example) and that religions existence is evidence of its veracity. There are an enormous amount of naturalistic reasons to explain the omnipresence of some sort of religious, spiritual, or superstitious belief.

RabidAlpaca · Jan 23, 2013

LowDown said:
Here are some quotes from Murray's book.

First, a reminder of why religion contributes social capital to society:

Thus, according to Murray, a loss of religion is to be regretted because it means a loss of many things that bind members of the community together and promote comity.

Considering people who tell you flat out that they are not believers, the proportions in the upper and lower classes are now about the same, but they have increased more in the lower classes, from 3% to 22% between 1960 and 2010.

Then there are people who have disengaged from religion, the defacto seculars.

In Belmont, the upper classes, those who attend religious services regularly, the core believers, fell 12%. In Fishtown, the lower classes, they fell 17% between 1960 and 2010.

Why do these figures not agree with conventional wisdom, which says that nonbelievers are more common among educated elites?

Murray offers two answers. One is that the people of Belmont are not synonymous with the elite. They represent the upper middle class. While the elite in universities and the like are very secular this is not true about the broader upper middle class. The other is that people conflate religious fundamentalists with the lower classes. While fundamentalism is more common in the lower classes it isn't true that fundamentalism is growing in working class America. In Murray's surveys fundamentalism did not increase in the lower classes between 1960 and 2010. Instead, the trend that typifies the lower class whites of America is a flight from religion that is more pronounced than in the white upper class.

Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010: Charles Murray: Amazon.com: Kindle Store

1) None of these are facts, they are observations that aren't backed up by any studies or data that is posted here.

2) Even if they were facts, they do not suggest that the woes of our society are caused by secularism

3) Correlation does not imply causality. You have to prove that the things are actually linked, not that they both happened separately. I honestly expected more from you, because you always seem to be pretty aware of how our politicians are ****ing us. Here's a hint: It's because they're terrible, terrible people, and horrible at their jobs, it is certainly not their lack of jesus, especially considering most politicians and big businessmen are highly religious, I would actually see that as the opposite correlation.

4) Lastly, here's some evidence for you to ponder

It could also equally logically be argued that our lack of pirates is contributing to our societal woes, but I won't argue that, because I'm not ridiculous.

LowDown · Jan 23, 2013

zgoldsmith23 said:
Because they are busier perhaps? Not being involved is a personal choice.

A choice that is to the determent of the community.

So? They're not factual but "based on...". Texas Chainsaw Massacre is "based on true events" but we both know (or I hope you would) that it never actually happened.

Of course they are factual. They did surveys of populations as defined in the book and then gave those populations fictional names. Otherwise they are factual.

LowDown · Jan 23, 2013

RabidAlpaca said:
1) None of these are facts, they are observations that aren't backed up by any studies or data that is posted here.

Sorry, but I can't post the graphs published in the book, only summaries of them.

2) Even if they were facts, they do not suggest that the woes of our society are caused by secularism

No, secularism may be nothing more than a marker of a larger process that is going on. It is apparently not a sign of a healthy culture, though.

3) Correlation does not imply causality. You have to prove that the things are actually linked, not that they both happened separately. I honestly expected more from you, because you always seem to be pretty aware of how our politicians are ****ing us. Here's a hint: It's because they're terrible, terrible people, and horrible at their jobs, it is certainly not their lack of jesus, especially considering most politicians and big businessmen are highly religious, I would actually see that as the opposite correlation.

Murray spells out some of the reasons for thinking that they are causally linked, as I alluded to before. Simply put, institutions that bring the community together and give people something in common strengthen the community and promote comity. There's nothing mystical about it, you could potentially say the same about other sorts of community organizations, but, according to Murray, nothing has stepped up to replace religion in that regard so far, and nonbelievers tend to withdraw from the community.

It could also equally logically be argued that our lack of pirates is contributing to our societal woes, but I won't argue that, because I'm not ridiculous.

In the case of pirates the fallacy of that sort of causal connection is obvious.

LowDown · Jan 23, 2013

thebaron said:
As a historian I can point out that you can go back in time and see this even in the past. The truth is that society is built upon religion. If you think that the church and state are separated take a long hard look at our laws we put in place. Then grab a bible and look up the ten commandments. Notice any similarities? How about look at our constitution? Anyone who says the founders weren't all that religious wasn't paying attention. The constitution is absolutely covered in Christianity. Religion is part of the human experience always has been since the dawn of time. When a society throws religion out the window it causes a lot of problems that have been evident in Russia since the rise of communism there.

Yes, it is eerie the way this scenario has played out again and again in ancient cultures. As a vibrant young culture grows the people value the culture, hold it and its past in high esteem, and produce works of art and literature that celebrate its virtues. There is a strong sense of community and a shared purpose that is reflected in its spirituality, optimism about the future, and high birth rates. Later on, after urban centers have developed, the people tear down the culture and its institutions, criticize everything about it, regard themselves as more sophisticated and reasoned for doing so, produce art and literature that subverts the culture. Spirituality is lost. The sense of community and purpose is lost. People turn inward and grasp for power for power's sake. There is pessimism and often an expectation of disaster. Birth rates plummet, and the culture starts to de-populate.

StillBallin75 · Jan 23, 2013

What I see here from the pro-religion-makes-societies-powerful side is a bunch of conjecture and no actual evidence of a causal relationship. ****, i'm not even sure if there is evidence enough here to demonstrate a correlational relationship, much less a causal one.

These aren't the droids you're looking for, move along, nothing to see here.

skeptical hippo · Jan 23, 2013

LowDown said:
Yes, it is eerie the way this scenario has played out again and again in ancient cultures. As a vibrant young culture grows the people value the culture, hold it and its past in high esteem, and produce works of art and literature that celebrate its virtues. There is a strong sense of community and a shared purpose that is reflected in its spirituality, optimism about the future, and high birth rates. Later on, after urban centers have developed, the people tear down the culture and its institutions, criticize everything about it, regard themselves as more sophisticated and reasoned for doing so, produce art and literature that subverts the culture. Spirituality is lost. The sense of community and purpose is lost. People turn inward and grasp for power for power's sake. There is pessimism and often an expectation of disaster. Birth rates plummet, and the culture starts to de-populate.

It the cycle of life, since nothing man made is eternal it will eventually crumble and whither away. You can see even now that western civilization as a whole is slowly getting ripped apart by all these new ideas flooding in. When it does all go away something else will rise up and fill the void left by it's fall and life will go on as usual.

Aunt Spiker · Jan 23, 2013

LowDown said:
The discussion of religion in China got me to thinking...

Looking at those cultures where religious belief is on the decline we find that most of them share certain other characteristics:

Their population of the traditional ethnic group is shrinking.
Their economy is in the doldrums or is declining.
Their productivity is down.
Their birth rate is below the level required for replacement.
Their divorces are up and their marriage rate down.
They are increasingly being replaced by other, more religious ethnic groups.

I'm speaking here of Western cultures in Europe, of course.

In mostly secular Russia the population of ethnic Russians is falling off a cliff and the birth rate is abysmal, so much so that Putin is publically alarmed by it.

Yes, yes, this is not always true. Northern European cultures are less Christian but still economically viable. They do, however, have lower populations and lower birth rates, increased divorce and less marriage.

In the US the lower socioeconomic strata have 30% more non-believers now than in 1960. They are also increasingly unemployed or completely withdrawn from the work force, drawing disability, and doing nothing but sitting around watching TV or playing video games.*

US citizens further up the food chain are doing better and have also not become less religious since 1960.

Meanwhile, as previously discussed, in China, which has bursting economic growth, we find that all kinds of religions are increasing.

Of course, correlation is not exact and there are probably some exceptions. But still...

____________
*Yes, the increase in atheism celebrated by so many is mainly in the lower classes. And in prisons. :lol:

If they're booming - or declining - or growing - or what not . . . I'll take it from them and not you as to what it might mean and how it might be happening, if it is and so on, so forth.

I don't see how anyone outside of any culture or nation can adequately understand - let alone draw a conclusion on - what's occurring.

I'm not even familiar with their religious-preferences that you're referring to as in 'decline' or which ones are 'coming up - but in smaller groups' in contrast . . . or how the possibility of declining birth-numbers are so bad for a nation that constantly is struggling to support it's own rural components or who cleaved to a one-child policy at one time . . . do you want single people to continue to have children they can't care for or not?

Some of your conclusions aren't making much sense. . . and I don't know enough about basic Chinese culture to actually argue.

So perhaps both of us need to be wise and just shut the **** up about things we know nothing about? Maybe learn what we don't know before drawing the WRONG conclusions?

RabidAlpaca · Jan 23, 2013

LowDown said:
Sorry, but I can't post the graphs published in the book, only summaries of them.

No, secularism may be nothing more than a marker of a larger process that is going on. It is apparently not a sign of a healthy culture, though.

Murray spells out some of the reasons for thinking that they are causally linked, as I alluded to before. Simply put, institutions that bring the community together and give people something in common strengthen the community and promote comity. There's nothing mystical about it, you could potentially say the same about other sorts of community organizations, but, according to Murray, nothing has stepped up to replace religion in that regard so far, and nonbelievers tend to withdraw from the community.

In the case of pirates the fallacy of that sort of causal connection is obvious.

Well, instead of us all analyzing your statements about "No really, I read it in a book" why don't we actually look at the data and see what it says:

The LEAST religious countries on the planet: (Percentages are those who have no religion)
Sweden 88%
Denmark 83%
China 82%
Estonia 78%
Norway 78%
UK 76%
France 74%
Hong Kong 74%
Czech Repub.72%
Japan 71%
Finland 69%
Belgium 68%
Australia 67%
New Zealand 67%
Netherlands 65%

With the exception of China and Estonia, I wouldn't mind living in any of these countries. They're world leaders in happiness and standard of living.

Now let's look at the top 15 MOST religious countries:
Central African Republic 1%
Comoros 1%
Indonesia 1%
Malawi 1%
Sierra Leone 1%
Yemen 1%
Burundi 2%
Ecuador 2%
Guinea 2%
Kuwait 2%
Mauritania 2%
Niger 2%
Nigeria 2%
Sri Lanka 2%
Thailand 2%

There isn't a country on this list I would like to live in. They are all poor and miserable.

So let's make a summary from the data we have:
It seems like the more religious a country is, the poorer, more uneducated, and more miserable it is, the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you've been saying.

thebaron said:
It the cycle of life, since nothing man made is eternal it will eventually crumble and whither away. You can see even now that western civilization as a whole is slowly getting ripped apart by all these new ideas flooding in. When it does all go away something else will rise up and fill the void left by it's fall and life will go on as usual.

Really? You're welcome to move to one of the above countries I listed as being the most religious in the world. They all seem to be really great places. I hear the Central African Republic is nice this time of year.

The facts clearly show that the more we abandon religion, the better our society becomes.

Wherever Religious Belief is Waning the Society Is In Decline Also

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