Capitalism is anti-Christian

gilbertc1908 said:

But it is Augustine who makes the case for a "just war", Christ who says "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's",.

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Which things exactly did Jesus suppose were NOT God's? He was making a joke about the quislings carrying occupation money with graven images on them.

RGacky3 said:

By Capitalism I mean the economic system based on the capitalist mode of production (capitalist/worker relationship), profit, and resrouces, labor and capital being commodified and market based (goods and services markets are in many systems, not unique to capitalism).

Here's is why any christian should not be pro Capitalist.

The scriptures over and over again condemn greed, and love of money, Capitalism with its basis in neccesity on ever growing profit doesn't just allow greed it REQUIRES greed, it mandates it.

Agape love which is love based on principle rather than emotion, which is the basis of christianity, would make the christian oppose Capitalism, since capitalism is based on mandated selfishness, and mandated competition rather than cooperation.

The christian ethic demands cooperativeness, seeking of common welfare, and so on, so a christian society would want to encourage those ethics, and discourage greed, selfishness, profiteering and externalizing, thus making Capitalism incompatible with the Christian ethic.

Property rights were ALWAYS secondary in scripture to the general welfare and individual welfare, going back to the mosaic law to the Jerusalem Church, given that Capitalism puts property rights above all else, and persuit of profit above all else its incompatible.

The capitalist/labor exploitative relationship is condemned over and over and over agian in the scripture.

Any system that is 100% based on profiteering, constant accumulation of capital, exploitation and commodification of EVERYTHING (thus leaving nothing sacred) should be abhorant to christians, as it was for many christians when capitalism started, as it was for the early christian church.

If Christians want to live in a christian society, step 1 is opposing the capitalist economic system.

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So I understand you, you are advocating a theocratic government for the USA? Clarify what you are saying. For example, then you also are advocating having a theocratic president and Congress, with the Supreme Court consisting of Christian theocrats too making rulings based upon the Bible, which is to become the law of the land.

Or do I misread what you are claiming/advocating?

RGacky3 said:

By Capitalism I mean the economic system based on the capitalist mode of production (capitalist/worker relationship), profit, and resrouces, labor and capital being commodified and market based (goods and services markets are in many systems, not unique to capitalism).

Here's is why any christian should not be pro Capitalist.

The scriptures over and over again condemn greed, and love of money, Capitalism with its basis in neccesity on ever growing profit doesn't just allow greed it REQUIRES greed, it mandates it.

Agape love which is love based on principle rather than emotion, which is the basis of christianity, would make the christian oppose Capitalism, since capitalism is based on mandated selfishness, and mandated competition rather than cooperation.

The christian ethic demands cooperativeness, seeking of common welfare, and so on, so a christian society would want to encourage those ethics, and discourage greed, selfishness, profiteering and externalizing, thus making Capitalism incompatible with the Christian ethic.

Property rights were ALWAYS secondary in scripture to the general welfare and individual welfare, going back to the mosaic law to the Jerusalem Church, given that Capitalism puts property rights above all else, and persuit of profit above all else its incompatible.

The capitalist/labor exploitative relationship is condemned over and over and over agian in the scripture.

Any system that is 100% based on profiteering, constant accumulation of capital, exploitation and commodification of EVERYTHING (thus leaving nothing sacred) should be abhorant to christians, as it was for many christians when capitalism started, as it was for the early christian church.

If Christians want to live in a christian society, step 1 is opposing the capitalist economic system.

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It's contradistinctive, certainly. I wouldn't describe it as being anti-Christian. But most definitely not in keeping with the spirit of Christianity.

It doesn't matter. People see what they want to see. The world isn't ready for religion.

lulz .............

Ok. So we have this topic again.

So lets discuss the subtopic-> communism and the USSR. Was the USSR a communist regime? Yes. Was it a socialist regime? Yes. Why? Because it fits the definition.
When one says: the means of production (industry/services/utilities) in the hands of the people, all the people own all those things, they mean that the government owns those things. Because the people are represented by the government. Hence, did, in the USSR, the government own most of everything that was part of the private industry in the west? Yes. Yes they did. This is why the communist/socialist sympathisers who deny the USSR as being a communist or socialist country after Stalin was done with it say so. Because they claim that because an oligarchy was present... one oligarchy who was in power as it were, that there couldn't be communism. Yes there was. it is what happens when you put the economic power in the same hands with those that have political power. You create that monstruosity. In the west, economic power is differentiated from political power because one is the private sector where you have the will of individuals put in the economic market... and the public sector which is the will of all the people. The greatest examples of socialist countries left in the world are Cuba, which has taken a turn for the better in the last 10 years. And N. Korea. There is no socialist country in Europe with the exception of portugal which has a minor issue of non-marxist socialism in its Constitution.

Now lets discuss the main topic. Capitalism vs Christianity.

The reason why Capitalism or socialism or communism or fascism or the monarchy or tribalism is not against Christianity is because of one simply reason. Because as the man himself put it... Christianity is not about this world. It's about the next world. The one you die to get to. There is where you have everything you want. Here you don't. It is why the jews killed him. Because their savior would have came and brought the kingdom of heaven on Earth and made everything good for the jews by killing all their enemies. Jesus didn't do that and condemned that. He said that this life is as it is and it is with good and bad and that is why forgiveness is important as opposed to tooth for tooth and eye for eye which was Moses' philosophy.

Now. Lets discuss on the merits of being a christian under the 2 regimes. One capitalism and the other, communism.
Under capitalism you can have whatever you want as long as you have the money for it. You can have more of the same and can do whatever you want with your money as long as it is not something criminal.
Under communism, you pretty much are restricted to having things. So if you like ipads and ipods and such, you can't have them under communism. Because you don't need them. You don't need to have 2 cars. You don't even need to have 1 car because you can take the bus to work. You don't need 2 houses, 1 house is enough and even that can be an apartment building given to you by the comissar which is near your workplace. You don't need to look for a job because they will give one to you. Because that's the system. And you don't need to have a 3room apartment when a 2 room one will suffice for you or you don't need to have 10 loafs of bread when 1 loaf is enough.

So as a christian, which system is better for you to conduct your christian doctrine. You can go to Church if that isn't banned and you can pray and everything. You can forgive your enemies equally under both regimes... what is however harder, much harder to do under communism is charity. Because you have very little to begin with and unless you join the communist party, you will never have more. And there are no ways for you to get more under communism... or rather, it is very hard. But under capitalism, if you have money, you can be charitable whenever you want. You can give whatever to whomever as long as you can afford it. Want to support a charity? Sure thing. Want to give shoes to homeless people, sure thing. Want to buy 10kg of fish and bread and give to people... sure thing. Want to start a kitchen for the poor. sure, you can do that and more under capitalism and a free state. You cannot under communism.

Good deeds are done voluntarily. If you are being forced or pushed or constrained into doing good deeds, they are not good deeds. They are just good actions.
Let me give a more practical example.
Which is a good deed? If you, voluntarily, every month, you give 10% of your paycheck to a charity. Or... if the government passes a law and requires that you give 10% of your paycheck to a charity every month. You may argue that there is better for the charity organizations is the law gets passed because they will receive more money. But... what happens when you don't have the money? What happens if you make 400 bucks/week and you can't give 10% because you're too broke. You put people in quite... awkward positions. So you have to make laws saying that people who make less than X sum don't have to pay, or are exempt. Then what do you do? You narrow it down to people who make more than X. You may argue that it is still good because the charities will get more money still than if the law hadn't been passed. But at what cost? You force people to do something that some people may have been doing voluntarily already and you force others who weren't doing it to pitch in. And also, what if some people usually gave 20%, now they will give just 10 % and it will be because they are forced to do so and then won't give the 10% up to 20% because they are already doing their "fair share" of duty towards this.

What would the consequences be? A movement against such an abuse. And so, if the movement gets enough support... the law will be scrapped and then maybe people won't feel that generous because they've been forced to be generous before. And the profits of the charities drop. And I haven't even gone in the bushy stuff about which charities and all that ****.

Bottom line. Communism sucks for christians who want to be good christians or for people in general who want to be good people. Charity is not a christian concept. It is a fundamental concept in Christianity but it we don't have sole ownership over it. Capitalism is not ideal... but it is a flawed world with flawed people and hence, flawed forms of government and economy and such will exist. It is however, better. Not crony capitalism, but mixed market capitalism or free market capitalism are better.

Which things exactly did Jesus suppose were NOT God's? He was making a joke about the quislings carrying occupation money with graven images on them.

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So what is the point of the joke? That God wants to have coinage with His image on it or that handing over meaningless coinage to a emperor is of no consequence as compared to the acknowledgement and love of Christ as Savior?

gilbertc1908 said:

So what is the point of the joke? That God wants to have coinage with His image on it or that handing over meaningless coinage to a emperor is of no consequence as compared to the acknowledgement and love of Christ as Savior?

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They shouldn't have been carrying occupation money with graven images on it because they were Pharisees. If you think money is meaningless you must be a Martian or something.

RGacky3 said:

By Capitalism I mean the economic system based on the capitalist mode of production (capitalist/worker relationship), profit, and resrouces, labor and capital being commodified and market based (goods and services markets are in many systems, not unique to capitalism).

Here's is why any christian should not be pro Capitalist.

The scriptures over and over again condemn greed, and love of money, Capitalism with its basis in neccesity on ever growing profit doesn't just allow greed it REQUIRES greed, it mandates it.

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Well there's your problem right there - no it doesn't. It speculates that people will tend to follow their incentive structures. Uniquely among the economic systems of organization that we have explored to date, the free exchange of goods and services takes mankinds' fallen nature (which Christianity is premised upon us having) and turns it towards the good of others.

Ah, but I can be pro-capitalistic my entire life, then renounce my capitalist sins, be forgiven, and all is well.

Problem solved!

cpwill said:

Well there's your problem right there - no it doesn't. It speculates that people will tend to follow their incentive structures. Uniquely among the economic systems of organization that we have explored to date, the free exchange of goods and services takes mankinds' fallen nature (which Christianity is premised upon us having) and turns it towards the good of others.

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I think yoiu need to read the New Testament again. And obviously capitalism rewards the totally wicked, like, say, Hitler, whom it put in power to save itself by murdering people.

Penderyn said:

I think yoiu need to read the New Testament again.

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what, you mean for example the parts where it opposes mandated giving rates?

And obviously capitalism rewards the totally wicked, like, say, Hitler, whom it put in power to save itself by murdering people.

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:lol: dude. Hitler loathed capitalism. You may have noticed the name was "National Socialists"? :lol:

It just seems like the OP is distorting concepts for unknown reasons.

I'm not religious, but I think both capitalists and socialists (textbook definitions) can adhere to some form of Christianity if they wished.

cpwill said:

what, you mean for example the parts where it opposes mandated giving rates?



:lol: dude. Hitler loathed capitalism. You may have noticed the name was "National Socialists"? :lol:

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It is difficult to deal with Americans, because they were stopped from thinking by McCarthy. Why did all the big German firms support socialism suddenly, child? You are too young to be drinking that stuff! I'm afraid I don't know what your first sentence means, so I can't answer that.

Penderyn said:

It is difficult to deal with Americans, because they were stopped from thinking by McCarthy. Why did all the big German firms support socialism suddenly, child? You are too young to be drinking that stuff! I'm afraid I don't know what your first sentence means, so I can't answer that.

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Sad, but all too true. The paranoid style of politics infected the US in the Cold War and since then conservatives have kept it lovingly alive. They're fixation on unregulated capitalism (a new fetish) somehow dovetails with that because in their bizarre paranoid world any reasonable regulation for the good of society is a concession to "socialism" -- defined tautologically by Republcians as anything that regulates markets.

It's almost total intellectual bankruptcy and it will be a while before the US cleanses itself of the conservative germ.

RabidAlpaca said:

You're absolutely right. Christianity would fit socialism much better:
- You give up all of your property
- You try to feed thousands on one loaf of bread and a fish

All for the promise of later benefit that may or may not ever happen.

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socialism and Christianity have much in common

both require one to suspend rational thought in order to believe it

RGacky3 said:

You gonna respond to anything in the OP?

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Your OP is basically correct, since the early church combined their property and acted communally and their goal was for the entire world to share in that sort of giving, mutual beneficial life. Hence:

Acts 4:32 Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common.

Now that's not the world we live in, and regulated capitalism can be made to benefit everybody (more or less) and raise living standards, and Christians have a duty to act for those goals, since self-interest must be balanced by takng into consideration the interest of others, especially the less fortunate. Hence:

Philippians 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Therefore no real Christian can "support" unregulated capitalism -- it is a system antithetical to the doctrine of love in the gospel. And no real Chrisitan can accumulate large wealth. Hence:


James 5: 1Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. 2Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. 3Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. 4Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts.



But Christians can accomodate and attempt to use capitalism to help others. Indeed, it is their duty since our system is not going to end anytime soon.

RGacky3 said:

By Capitalism I mean the economic system based on the capitalist mode of production (capitalist/worker relationship), profit, and resrouces, labor and capital being commodified and market based (goods and services markets are in many systems, not unique to capitalism).

Here's is why any christian should not be pro Capitalist.

The scriptures over and over again condemn greed, and love of money, Capitalism with its basis in neccesity on ever growing profit doesn't just allow greed it REQUIRES greed, it mandates it.

Click to expand...

You started with the false premise that profit = greed. Being fairly compensated for products or services is not in opposition to any tenant of Christianity.

Agape love which is love based on principle rather than emotion, which is the basis of christianity, would make the christian oppose Capitalism, since capitalism is based on mandated selfishness, and mandated competition rather than cooperation.

The christian ethic demands cooperativeness, seeking of common welfare, and so on, so a christian society would want to encourage those ethics, and discourage greed, selfishness, profiteering and externalizing, thus making Capitalism incompatible with the Christian ethic.

Click to expand...

Christianity requires selflessness out of free will. Capitalism is the closest thing to allowing selflessness of free will. Socialism, communism and the like require selflessness by regulation. You won't find any passage in the Bible that has Jesus forcing people to do anything. He only asked them to do the right thing, and when they didn't they were condemned.

Property rights were ALWAYS secondary in scripture to the general welfare and individual welfare, going back to the mosaic law to the Jerusalem Church, given that Capitalism puts property rights above all else, and persuit of profit above all else its incompatible.

The capitalist/labor exploitative relationship is condemned over and over and over agian in the scripture.

Click to expand...

Actually, it was widely supported. It was referred to as slavery, but it was (in principle) the same as labor today. Individuals sold their skills to an "owner" (employer by today's terms) and in return received compensation. The Bible repeatedly warns of mistreating people in their employ.

Any system that is 100% based on profiteering, constant accumulation of capital, exploitation and commodification of EVERYTHING (thus leaving nothing sacred) should be abhorant to christians, as it was for many christians when capitalism started, as it was for the early christian church.

If Christians want to live in a christian society, step 1 is opposing the capitalist economic system.

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Let's fix this:

Any individual that is 100% based on profiteering, constant accumulation of capital, exploitation and com-modification of EVERYTHING (thus leaving nothing sacred) should be abhorrent to God, as it was for many Christians when capitalism started, as it was for the early christian church.

That makes your statement accurate. The reality is that Christians should push for capitalism and charity. The two are not mutually exclusive while socialism and Christian charity are.

ksu_aviator said:

You started with the false premise that profit = greed. Being fairly compensated for products or services is not in opposition to any tenant of Christianity. .

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If you keep it, it's greed.

And Jesus says not to.

It's really that simple. You may not like it, but the message is clear to all real Christians.


Matthew 6:19 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

TurtleDude said:

socialism and Christianity have much in common

both require one to suspend rational thought in order to believe it

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Wow, another failed attempt at humor by turtle, who is as usual unable to contribute to the discussion.

ksu_aviator said:

Christianity requires selflessness out of free will. Capitalism is the closest thing to allowing selflessness of free will. Socialism, communism and the like require selflessness by regulation. You won't find any passage in the Bible that has Jesus forcing people to do anything. He only asked them to do the right thing, and when they didn't they were condemned.
.

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Christianity requires the rejection of greed and action to assist the poor and needy, including social action of, say, voting for a safety net paid for by taxes.

Remember what Paul said:


Romans 13:6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

Paul would find the American conservative movement and its anti-tax anti-government fetishes anathema marantha.

gilbertc1908 said:

But it is Augustine who makes the case for a "just war", Christ who says "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's", I simply can not agree with your overall point since it presupposes that a "system" can be evil or anti Christian which is impossible. Only people can be evil or anti Christian.

Faith and Grace transcend mere political and economic definitions, as a citizen I can feel redistribution of wealth is correct or that a libertarian approach to free markets is best without compromising my salvation because God's judgement is on me not government or economic policies.

There is simply no correlation between my Christian faith and what governmental or economic system I prefer, there is however a direct correlation between my faith and the insistence on the recognition of inherent human dignity in every phase of society.

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Augustine isn't christian cannon and Augustine is post what I call Constantinian christianity, i.e. empire christianity.

That quote by Jesus, was simply a response to paying taxes, and not at all in reference to warfar. Of coarse "systems" can be evil, in that it discourages christian thinking and encourages unchristian thinking, and has institutions that go against christian ethics, racist systems ... for example ... would be unchristian given the christian ethic.

Oh I absolutely agree that faith and not political activity leads to salvation, and I in no way meant to say that one must be an anti-capitalist to be a christian, nor that it in anyway aids salvation. What I am saying is that the economic system OF capitalism, (as the socail system of racism) is unchristian, and should not be supported if someone wants to make guide their socail ideology with christian ethics.

Absolutely, and the recognition of inherent human dignity, and other christian principles, should lead one, if one is taking a stance on the issue, to not support capitalism.

joko104 said:

So I understand you, you are advocating a theocratic government for the USA? Clarify what you are saying. For example, then you also are advocating having a theocratic president and Congress, with the Supreme Court consisting of Christian theocrats too making rulings based upon the Bible, which is to become the law of the land.

Or do I misread what you are claiming/advocating?

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No that isn't what I'm saying AT ALL, I am claiming that if you AS AN INDIVIDUAL were to appply christian ethics to economic policy you should oppose capitalism since it is incompativle with christian ethics.

Capitalism is anti-theocracy, of whatever variety. Capitalism is not anti-theology. In fact, capitalism gives religious freedom in the face of, well, religious freedom.