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Hell & The Devil

Dragonfly said:
I've talked to quite a few people who consider themselves Christians, but don't believe in Hell or The Devil.

I know it sounds odd, but that's what they've said.
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Its really not that surprising
 
WcBeasley said:
And Mithra is alleged to have said that same thing 500 years before the advent of Jesus and Horus is said to have made that statement 1000 years before the alleged birth of Jesus. Quoting the Bible only shows that YOU believe it to be true. Any holy book in and of itself cannot convince anyone that isn't already WANTING to be convinced to begin with. If one wishes to convince/convert a non-believer one must use something other that their holy book to give credence to their faith so that the non-believer realizes it is more than just words written by man thousands of years earlier in a different time.
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You missed my point. Entirely. But not surprisingly.
 
The followers of Serapis practiced monotheism and were called Christians 50 years before the alleged birth of Jesus and were still around in Rome during the time of Nero. Even most scholars today believe that when 'Christians' were persecuted it Rome many of them were followers of Serapis because THEY had a habit of making themselves annoying to the Romans. Granted The Followers of Jesus were ALSO persecuted but they were by no means the only 'christians' that were.
 
Dragonfly said:
I think the vast majority of Christians use the bible in an a la carte type fashion.
They pick and chose the parts they want to follow, and disregard the parts they dislike.

A perfect example is the many who completely ignore the entire Old Testament.
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Except for your last statement this is very true you see and here it all the time.
 
nota bene said:
You missed my point. Entirely. But not surprisingly.
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Well when all you do is post a quote from the bible then perhaps you should expect to be misinterpreted. A bit more explanation might be in order.
 
Goshin said:
I don't know of anywhere that I have claimed to have all the answers to life, the universe, and everything. :)


Oh wait, yes I do... it is forty-two!! :mrgreen:



Okay, I'll be serious.... in essense you are asking "what about those who are ignorant of Christianity, or have never had it presented to them in a clear and convincing manner, or who just don't know what to believe?"

Well, there are a number of theories that bounce around the theological sphere; most of which fall into one of these three categories.

1. They go to Hell for failing to accept Christ, regardless of ignorance or etc.
2. They are judged based on their actions and intentions, and "what they did with what they knew".
3. All faiths lead up the same mountain, they just take different paths.



Personally I do not believe #3. That leaves me with #1 or 2. I would prefer to believe #2, but I'd point out there is a difference between true ignorance and willful ignorance... and I'd hate to die in the hope that "I didn't know, for sure" would save my soul... because I'm not sure if that is so.


I suppose that is an elaborate way of saying "I am uncertain", but as I said I don't claim to have all the answers.

I know what I believe though, and why I believe it, and I am content with trusting my soul to what I believe. If you can't answer the same, perhaps some further thought on the matter is in order.


Or not, as you please. :shrug:
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Your first assertion about the Christ condemns more than half the world and therefore cannot possibly be accurate. Instead since Jesus and God are one and the same (regardless of the cryptic biblical quote) why not say. Those who do not accept a Creator, supreme being or power greater than themselves.

I have said this before. The most CHRISTIAN person I ever met was a Iranian Muslim. And if you have read the New Testament and know the stories, there is ample evidence in there of non Christians going to heaven. The idea that only followers of the annointed one go to heaven is IMHO somewhat narrow.
 
Dragonfly said:
I'm simply asking what people believe. I understand you, and 100% of everybody else don't have the full answers to any of the questions, but surely you and everybody else have speculations and beliefs.

I don't believe in anything the Bible states. So my answers are simple. There is no Hell, and there is no Devil.

I'm strongly curious as to what believers think though.

I find it completely impossible to believe "god" gave us the abilities to think and question but never intended for us to think about and question his/her existence.

I don't believe a "god" that's supposed to be so loving and caring would condemn any soul to eternal hell for the vast majority of things most people think might send them there.

I surely don't think there can be only one, highly specific path to salvation, regardless of there being a god or not.

The definitions of religion and their tenets are 100% written and perceived by humans. Historically humans have proven time and again they are uniquely fallible.

The world was once flat. The Earth was once the center of the universe. Flight was impossible. Witch trials.

I think there's an almost insane arrogance to someone who thinks they know exactly what is the one and only path to something as uncertain and unknown as god, heaven, and hell.

Which is also why I find it fascinating to have these kinds of discussions.
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You and I need to talk. Sounds very familar. This is very much my view. If interested PM me.
 
WcBeasley said:
Christianity has absolutely NOTHING unique about its tenets. EVERYTHING within it can be traced to older more established religions.
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This is a very interesting concept can you explain?
 
The fascinating thing for me is too fold:

1. "Christians" (those who follow the annointed one) seem to beleive somehow that the Jews, Romans or JUdas killed Jesus. If you read the story of the Passion you will see that it was GOD's (read both) intent to "kill himself" for the forgiveness of sins as such the entities mentioned above were merely tools at Its bidding.
2. "Christians" contrary to the Word somehow believe they are unigue in thier worship or place such as the concept of Jews being the chosen people.

People are of course entitled to believe what they wish, I just find these notions interesting.
 
wolfman24 said:
This is a very interesting concept can you explain?
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I would be more than happy to elaborate. I will give a brief synopsis here but if you want to discuss it further please feel free to email me.

If you take ANY aspect of Modern Christian faith...regardless of what it is and you can trace that belief back to a more ancient religious belief. For example as I stated a bit earlier, even their name isn't unique. The Followers of the god Serapis (a greek god btw) were monotheistic in their beliefs. They even used the name Christian and their leaders were called Bishops of Christ. Horus, Mithra, Attis, Bhudda just to name a few were all called the Son of God, the Annointed one, had 12 disciples, had a 'sermon on the mount', Isis the mother of Horus was also called Mari 'the virgin'. Mithra, Horus, Attis, Atala all 'died and were raised from the dead' 3 days later and asscended into Heaven. I could go on and on but these are just a few examples of why I say there is nothing new within the tenets of Christianity.
 
WcBeasley said:
The followers of Serapis practiced monotheism and were called Christians 50 years before the alleged birth of Jesus and were still around in Rome during the time of Nero. Even most scholars today believe that when 'Christians' were persecuted it Rome many of them were followers of Serapis because THEY had a habit of making themselves annoying to the Romans. Granted The Followers of Jesus were ALSO persecuted but they were by no means the only 'christians' that were.
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I have some knowledge of Serapis but I've never seen it associated with anything other than the pantheon of gods of Egypt, Greece or Rome.
 
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WcBeasley said:
I would be more than happy to elaborate. I will give a brief synopsis here but if you want to discuss it further please feel free to email me.

If you take ANY aspect of Modern Christian faith...regardless of what it is and you can trace that belief back to a more ancient religious belief. For example as I stated a bit earlier, even their name isn't unique. The Followers of the god Serapis (a greek god btw) were monotheistic in their beliefs. They even used the name Christian and their leaders were called Bishops of Christ. Horus, Mithra, Attis, Bhudda just to name a few were all called the Son of God, the Annointed one, had 12 disciples, had a 'sermon on the mount', Isis the mother of Horus was also called Mari 'the virgin'. Mithra, Horus, Attis, Atala all 'died and were raised from the dead' 3 days later and asscended into Heaven. I could go on and on but these are just a few examples of why I say there is nothing new within the tenets of Christianity.
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It was my understanding that the first monotheistic religon was in Egypt not Greece, but I can see this whole premise and thanks.

When I was studying wildlife biology we were constantly told that there was no such thing as an original idea. That all ideas for the many years past were built on top of old ones.
 
wolfman24 said:
It was my understanding that the first monotheistic religon was in Egypt not Greece, but I can see this whole premise and thanks.

When I was studying wildlife biology we were constantly told that there was no such thing as an original idea. That all ideas for the many years past were built on top of old ones.
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With the possible exception of the 1st few hundred years of Humanities existence I agree... there IS no such thing as an Original idea. Can you imagine where we would be if the Library of Alexandria had not been destroyed...TWICE. The Romans had surgical techniques nearly as advanced as our own today. If you were to take 1st century Roman surgical instruments and place them next to modern ones you could barely tell the difference. The Egyptians did brain surgury, and its alleged they even had a cure for some forms of cancer. Again these are just a few examples.
 
WcBeasley said:
With the possible exception of the 1st few hundred years of Humanities existence I agree... there IS no such thing as an Original idea. Can you imagine where we would be if the Library of Alexandria had not been destroyed...TWICE. The Romans had surgical techniques nearly as advanced as our own today. If you were to take 1st century Roman surgical instruments and place them next to modern ones you could barely tell the difference. The Egyptians did brain surgury, and its alleged they even had a cure for some forms of cancer. Again these are just a few examples.
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Not to mention what the early Chinese dynasty's were able to do and knew.

But the Inquistion would have taken care of that anyhow.
 
wolfman24 said:
Not to mention what the early Chinese dynasty's were able to do and knew.

But the Inquistion would have taken care of that anyhow.
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True. 600 years of putting people to death for knowing how to read, torturing people for having taken a bath, and burning people at the stake for helping someone else get rid of fleas.....Yep the Inquisition certainly would have taken care of it. UNLESS that knowledge had been allowed to foment in the minds of the populace and made them see the realities of the world in which they were living and they had removed those in power forcibly. But then who's to say the resulting power struggle would have left us anything better?
 
WcBeasley said:
Well when all you do is post a quote from the bible then perhaps you should expect to be misinterpreted. A bit more explanation might be in order.
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I was responding to a specific post that claimed that only a child would believe in satan or hell.
 
WcBeasley said:
I would be more than happy to elaborate. I will give a brief synopsis here but if you want to discuss it further please feel free to email me.

If you take ANY aspect of Modern Christian faith...regardless of what it is and you can trace that belief back to a more ancient religious belief. For example as I stated a bit earlier, even their name isn't unique. The Followers of the god Serapis (a greek god btw) were monotheistic in their beliefs. They even used the name Christian and their leaders were called Bishops of Christ. Horus, Mithra, Attis, Bhudda just to name a few were all called the Son of God, the Annointed one, had 12 disciples, had a 'sermon on the mount', Isis the mother of Horus was also called Mari 'the virgin'. Mithra, Horus, Attis, Atala all 'died and were raised from the dead' 3 days later and asscended into Heaven. I could go on and on but these are just a few examples of why I say there is nothing new within the tenets of Christianity.
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Several items you just quoted were in error, which raises questions about whether the rest are at all factual as well.

Mithra (whether you mean the Mithra of Zoroastrianism, or the Mithras of the Roman cult), for instance, was not dead 3 days and ascended into heaven, according to any information I have available.
 
Goshin said:
Several items you just quoted were in error, which raises questions about whether the rest are at all factual as well.

Mithra (whether you mean the Mithra of Zoroastrianism, or the Mithras of the Roman cult), for instance, was not dead 3 days and ascended into heaven, according to any information I have available.
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The National Geographic Society’s book “Great Religions of the World,” page 309 writes; “By Jesus’ time, East and West had mingled here for three centuries. Down columns of boulevards walked Roman soldiers loyal to the Persian god Mithras.” Mithras was a Persian deity. He was also the most widely venerated god in the Roman Empire at the time of Jesus. The Catholic Encyclopedia as well as the early Church Fathers found this religion of Mithras very disturbing, as there are so many similarities between the two religions, as follows:



1) Hundreds of years before Jesus, according to the Mithraic religion, three Wise Men of Persia came to visit the baby savior-god Mithra, bring him gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense.

2) Mithra was born on December 25 as told in the “Great Religions of the World”, page 330; “…it was the winter solstice celebrated by ancients as the birthday of Mithraism’s sun god”.

3) According to Mithraism, before Mithra died on a cross, he celebrated a “Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac.

4) After the death of Mithra, his body was laid to rest in a rock tomb.

5) Mithra had a celibate priesthood.

6) Mithra ascended into heaven during the spring (Passover) equinox (the time when the sun crosses the equator making night and day of equal length).
Trinity―Trinities were popular in pagan sects before Christianity was introduced to the world. Some of the more well known trinity gods included Mithra-Vohu Mana-Rashnu, Amen-Mut-Khonsu, and Osiris-Isis-Horus.

Virgin Birth―Among the pagan cultures that preceded Christianity, virgin birth stories abounded. The long list of pagan gods born of virgins includes: Romulus and Remus, Zoroaster, Buddha, Mithras, Chrishna, Osiris-Aion, Agdistis, Attis, Tammuz, Adonis, Korybas, Perseus, and Dionysus.

Disciples―In the following 'saviors' cases, a grouping of disciples was present, just as they were present in Jesus' story: Horus, Buddha, Chrishna, Dionysus, Mithra. Interestingly enough, in the case of Dionysus, his disciple Acoetes was a boatman, just as Jesus' disciple Peter. And just as Peter was freed from jail when the doors miraculously flew open, so was Dionysus' disciple Acoetes. In Budda's case, he, like Jesus, demanded that his disciples renounce all worldly possessions. Yet another instance of similarity is that the disciples of both Jesus and Buddha were said to have been arrested for preaching, as well as witnessed to have "walked on water."

Miracles―Among those 'saviors' who, like Jesus, performed countless miracles include: Horus, Chrishna, Buddha, Dionysus, Mithra, Osirus, and Adonis. Horus was said to have walked on water, just as Jesus did. In addition, Horus raised one man, El-Azarus, from the dead in front of countless witnesses. In the case of Buddha, it was told that he fed five hundred men with one loaf of bread, that he cured lepers, and that he caused the blind to see. Dionysus rescued a person from dying when the person was utterly desolate and placed them among the stars. And he gave food and drink, herbs and berries, to the starving people -- not to mention turning water into wine.

The Sun―Here is another common theory, quoted from S. Acharya's "The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus:" "The reason why all these pagan narratives are so similar to a "god-man" is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
 
WcBeasley said:
The National Geographic Society’s book “Great Religions of the World,” page 309 writes; “By Jesus’ time, East and West had mingled here for three centuries. Down columns of boulevards walked Roman soldiers loyal to the Persian god Mithras.” Mithras was a Persian deity. He was also the most widely venerated god in the Roman Empire at the time of Jesus. The Catholic Encyclopedia as well as the early Church Fathers found this religion of Mithras very disturbing, as there are so many similarities between the two religions, as follows:



1) Hundreds of years before Jesus, according to the Mithraic religion, three Wise Men of Persia came to visit the baby savior-god Mithra, bring him gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense.

2) Mithra was born on December 25 as told in the “Great Religions of the World”, page 330; “…it was the winter solstice celebrated by ancients as the birthday of Mithraism’s sun god”.

3) According to Mithraism, before Mithra died on a cross, he celebrated a “Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac.

4) After the death of Mithra, his body was laid to rest in a rock tomb.

5) Mithra had a celibate priesthood.

6) Mithra ascended into heaven during the spring (Passover) equinox (the time when the sun crosses the equator making night and day of equal length).
Trinity―Trinities were popular in pagan sects before Christianity was introduced to the world. Some of the more well known trinity gods included Mithra-Vohu Mana-Rashnu, Amen-Mut-Khonsu, and Osiris-Isis-Horus.

Virgin Birth―Among the pagan cultures that preceded Christianity, virgin birth stories abounded. The long list of pagan gods born of virgins includes: Romulus and Remus, Zoroaster, Buddha, Mithras, Chrishna, Osiris-Aion, Agdistis, Attis, Tammuz, Adonis, Korybas, Perseus, and Dionysus.

Disciples―In the following 'saviors' cases, a grouping of disciples was present, just as they were present in Jesus' story: Horus, Buddha, Chrishna, Dionysus, Mithra. Interestingly enough, in the case of Dionysus, his disciple Acoetes was a boatman, just as Jesus' disciple Peter. And just as Peter was freed from jail when the doors miraculously flew open, so was Dionysus' disciple Acoetes. In Budda's case, he, like Jesus, demanded that his disciples renounce all worldly possessions. Yet another instance of similarity is that the disciples of both Jesus and Buddha were said to have been arrested for preaching, as well as witnessed to have "walked on water."

Miracles―Among those 'saviors' who, like Jesus, performed countless miracles include: Horus, Chrishna, Buddha, Dionysus, Mithra, Osirus, and Adonis. Horus was said to have walked on water, just as Jesus did. In addition, Horus raised one man, El-Azarus, from the dead in front of countless witnesses. In the case of Buddha, it was told that he fed five hundred men with one loaf of bread, that he cured lepers, and that he caused the blind to see. Dionysus rescued a person from dying when the person was utterly desolate and placed them among the stars. And he gave food and drink, herbs and berries, to the starving people -- not to mention turning water into wine.

The Sun―Here is another common theory, quoted from S. Acharya's "The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus:" "The reason why all these pagan narratives are so similar to a "god-man" is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe.
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All this proves is that, assuming your source info is accurate, even National Geographic can get things spectacularly wrong on occasion.

I've studied a bit about the Roman Mithras cult.

Mithras was NOT born on December 25, and was NOT visited by three wise men as a babe... Mithras was born as a young man out of a rock with a dagger in his hand.

Mithras was not crucified on a cross.

Feasting was a common part of the Mithras Cult, but no mention of a "Last Supper", a cave tomb, or a post-resurrection ascension into Heaven.

In short, your information is in error. We went over the Mithras cult a couple of months ago and all this stuff is nonsense and untrue.

This calls the rest of your assertions into question as well.

Here are some link to educate you on your errors....

Cosmic Mysteries of Mithras | Mithraism | Ancient Religion

Much has been made about the interaction between Mithraism and Christianity, as the two share a few beliefs and practices. Critics of Christianity claim the early Christ cults must have stolen from the Mithraic cults in an effort to make Christianity more appealing. Christian scholars disagree, claiming that Christianity was established in Rome before Mithraism and any borrowing must have happened in the opposite direction. Still other scholars doubt either cult borrowed from the other, asserting any similarity between the two cults is rooted in a mindset common to many Greco-Oriental mystery religions.

It was once asserted that Mithraism was Christianity's principle competitor, and would have become the official religion of the empire if Christianity had declined. This has been proven utterly false. The cult of Mithras was confined to a small section of the population - perhaps one or two percent. It also, unlike Christianity, excluded women. The cult members of Mithras - soldiers, administrators, traders - were by and large members who identified with the imperial establishment. Christianity's earliest successes were among foreigners and the urban proletariat - people most likely opposed to the imperial establishment. In terms of numbers, Mithraism could never have competed with Christianity, and most likely did not try. The cults were directed at different segments of the population.
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The Cult of Mithras

Mithras is depicted as being born from a rock. He is shown as emerging from a rock, already in his youth, with a dagger in one hand and a torch in the other. He is nude, is wearing a Phrygian cap and is holding his legs together.[43]
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Mithraic mysteries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The most common themes within the Mithraic cult were Mithras birth from a rock as a young man with a dagger; slaying a bull with only the dagger; feasting; and the hierarchial initiation into the "mysteries" through seven levels of rank. Nothing about the stuff you're talking about.

From a Roman Mithraic cult site, a statue showing Mithras rock-birth....

Mithras_petra_genetrix_Terme.jpg
 
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The comparisons to Horus got blown out of the water, so they moved on to comparing Jesus to a deity very few have heard of. Interesting.
 
Goshin said:
All this proves is that, assuming your source info is accurate, even National Geographic can get things spectacularly wrong on occasion.

I've studied a bit about the Roman Mithras cult.

Mithras was NOT born on December 25, and was NOT visited by three wise men as a babe... Mithras was born as a young man out of a rock with a dagger in his hand.

Mithras was not crucified on a cross.

Feasting was a common part of the Mithras Cult, but no mention of a "Last Supper", a cave tomb, or a post-resurrection ascension into Heaven.

In short, your information is in error. We went over the Mithras cult a couple of months ago and all this stuff is nonsense and untrue.

This calls the rest of your assertions into question as well.

Here are some link to educate you on your errors....

Cosmic Mysteries of Mithras | Mithraism | Ancient Religion



The Cult of Mithras



Mithraic mysteries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The most common themes within the Mithraic cult were Mithras birth from a rock as a young man with a dagger; slaying a bull with only the dagger; feasting; and the hierarchial initiation into the "mysteries" through seven levels of rank. Nothing about the stuff you're talking about.

From a Roman Mithraic cult site, a statue showing Mithras rock-birth....

View attachment 67136082
Click to expand...

"Chronography of 354," en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_of_Filocalus
"Mithraic Mysteries," en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries
"Mithraism," Mithraism - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online
"Mithraism and Christianity," meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Mesopotamia/Mithraism/ mithraism_and_christianity_i.htm
"Mithras in Comparison With Other Belief Systems," en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras_in_Comparison_With_Other_Belief_Systems
"Mitra," en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra
"Yalda," en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalda
Alvar, Jaime, and R.L. Gordon. Romanising Oriental Gods: Myth, Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras. Leiden/Boston: Brill, 2008.
Amir-Moezzi, Mohammed Ali. La religion discrète: croyances et pratiques spirituelles dans l'islam shi'ite. Paris: Libr. Philosophique Vrin, 2006.
Anonymous. The Existence of Christ Disproved. Private Printing by "A German Jew," 1840.
Badiozamani, Badi. Iran and America: Rekindling a Lost Love. California: East-West Understanding Press, 2005.
Beck, Roger. Beck on Mithraism. England/Vermont: Ashgate Pub., 2004.
Berry, Gerald. Religions of the World. New York: Barnes & Noble, 1955.
Bleeker, Claas J. The Sacred Bridge: Researches into the Nature and Structure of Religion. Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1963.
Boyce, Mary. "Mithraism: Mithra Khsathrapati and his brother Ahura." Iran Chamber Society: Religion in Iran: Mithraism: Mithr Khsathrapati and his brother Ahur
—A History of Zoroastrianism, II. Leiden/Köln: E.J. Brill, 1982.
Campbell, LeRoy A. Mithraic Iconography and Ideology. Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1968.
de Jong, Albert. Traditions of the Magi: Zoroastrianism in Greek and Latin Literature. Leiden/New York: Brill, 1997.
Forbes, Bruce David. Christmas: A Candid History. Berkeley/London: University of California Press, 2007.
Frazer, James G. The Worship of Nature, I. London: Macmillan, 1926.
Gordon, Richard L. "FAQ." Electronic Journal of Mithraic Studies, FAQ
—"The date and significance of CIMRM 593 (British Museum, Townley Collection)." Journal of Mithraic Studies, II: 148-174). hums.canterbury.ac.nz/clas/ejms/out_of_print/JMSv2n2/ JMSv2n2Gordon.pdf
Halsberghe, Gaston H. The Cult of Sol Invictus. Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1972.
Hinnells, John R., ed. Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies. Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1975.
Kosso, Cynthia, and Anne Scott. The Nature and Function of Water, Baths, Bathing and Hygiene from Antiquity through the Renaissance. Leiden/Boston: Brill, 2009.
Lundy, John P. Monumental Christianity. New York: J.W. Bouton, 1876.
Molnar, Michael R. The Star of Bethlehem: The Legacy of the Magi. New Jersey: Rutgers University Press, 1999.
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia, VII. eds. Samuel M. Jackson and George William Gilmore. New York/London: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1910.
Plutarch. "Life of Pompey." The Parallel Lives by Plutarch, V. Loeb, 1917; penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/ Pompey*.html#24
Porphyry. Selects Works of Porphyry. London: T. Rodd, 1823.
Prajnanananda, Swami. Christ the Saviour and Christ Myth. Calcutta: Ramakrishna Vedanta Math, 1984.
Restaud, Penne L. Christmas in America: A History. New York: Oxford Univ. Press, 1995.
Robert, Alexander, and James Donaldson, eds. Ante-Nicene Christian Library, XVIII: The Clementine Homilies. Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1870.
Robertson, John M. Pagan Christs. Dorset, 1966.
Russell, James R. Armenian and Iranian Studies. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2004.
Schaff, Philip, and Henry Wace. A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Father of the Christian Church, VI. New York: The Christian Literature Company, 1893.
Schironi, Francesca, and Arthus S. Hunt. From Alexandria to Babylon: Near Eastern Languages and Hellenistic Erudition in the Oxyrhynchus Glossary. Berlin/New York: Walter de Gruyter, 2009.
Srinivasan, Doris. On the Cusp of an Era: Art in the Pre-Kusana World. Leiden/Boston: Brill, 2007.
Weigall, Arthur. The Paganism in Our Christianity. London: Thames & Hudson, 1923.


Just to give a few sources supporting my claim.
 
WcBeasley said:
"Chronography of 354," en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_of_Filocalus
"Mithraic Mysteries," en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries
"Mithraism," Mithraism - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online
"Mithraism and Christianity," meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Mesopotamia/Mithraism/ mithraism_and_christianity_i.htm
"Mithras in Comparison With Other Belief Systems," en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras_in_Comparison_With_Other_Belief_Systems
"Mitra," en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra
"Yalda," en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalda
Alvar, Jaime, and R.L. Gordon. Romanising Oriental Gods: Myth, Salvation and Ethics in the Cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras. Leiden/Boston: Brill, 2008.
Amir-Moezzi, Mohammed Ali. La religion discrète: croyances et pratiques spirituelles dans l'islam shi'ite. Paris: Libr. Philosophique Vrin, 2006.
Anonymous. The Existence of Christ Disproved. Private Printing by "A German Jew," 1840.
Badiozamani, Badi. Iran and America: Rekindling a Lost Love. California: East-West Understanding Press, 2005.
Beck, Roger. Beck on Mithraism. England/Vermont: Ashgate Pub., 2004.
Berry, Gerald. Religions of the World. New York: Barnes & Noble, 1955.
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Just to give a few sources supporting my claim.
Click to expand...


I'm not wading through all that. :) Especially since most of it does not have hyperlinks I can readily go to.


I have no doubt there are some people who wish to make a link between Mithras and Christianity in order to discredit the latter. In one of the articles I linked to, it is noted that some scholars had attempted to make such a link and that it has been utterly disproven.

The fact that in my own researches, source after source talks about Mithras birth from the rock as a youth, the bull slaying, the feasting, the levels of initiation and the lion-headed figure and NONE I have come across have any credible info about a December 25 birth, virgins, wise men, crucifixions, resurrections, last suppers, disciples or anything you've said.

In short, I believe you are either being deceptive, or else you've been decieved.
 
Goshin said:
I'm not wading through all that. :) Especially since most of it does not have hyperlinks I can readily go to.


I have no doubt there are some people who wish to make a link between Mithras and Christianity in order to discredit the latter. In one of the articles I linked to, it is noted that some scholars had attempted to make such a link and that it has been utterly disproven.

The fact that in my own researches, source after source talks about Mithras birth from the rock as a youth, the bull slaying, the feasting, the levels of initiation and the lion-headed figure and NONE I have come across have any credible info about a December 25 birth, virgins, wise men, crucifixions, resurrections, last suppers, disciples or anything you've said.

In short, I believe you are either being deceptive, or else you've been decieved.
Click to expand...

Well we can agree to disagree on this. I can understand your not wanting to wade through the list I gave you but unfortunately few of those listed are actually online for free.
And I and neither BEING deceptive nor am I being DECIEVED. But until or unless you bothered to do more than online research you are welcome to your own opinion.
 
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