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What would God's response be to torture, and to the subject after torture?

ab9924 said:
Your answer is very interesting.

Here is the big dilemma. The torture technique that was explained to me is actually designed to avoid shocking the subject. It actively builds on the (medically) measured responses of the body, to decide about the next step of the torture process. In a way its essence is to make the torture just unbearable enough to continue it indefinitely. It would be interesting then to speculate, whether the body changes its own way of adapting to the torture if the torture itself is adaptive to the responses of the body.

For example, they put something on you or implant something inside you that causes variable pain or functional deficiency for your body. Then, as your body adapts to that and you start feeling better, they increment that harm, to force your body into further adaptation. What do you think the body's response will be? Will the body just adapt as before, or will it eventually shut down even though the increment itself alone would not be deadly?
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I'm sorry, but under those specific circumstances, I don't know. I have no medical knowledge, and if the torturers have researched the point to which to take someone scientifically, I expect the pain could go on indefinitely.

At this point, we need to look at the moral dimensions of torture. I'm afraid I could not be confident that God would step in and stop the torture. It has never happened in thousands of years, and it is unlikely to occur in many more thousands of years. So we are left with what empathetic humans can do about it.

Torture, of any sort, has been condemned as illegal by the 1984 UN Convention on Torture and Cruel, Inhuman, and Degrading Treatment. The Treaty expressly forbids torture and condemns its practitioners, and 74 nations are signatories thereto. Torture is clearly defined and any mealy mouthed protestations that the pain and fear inflicted is less than severe are invalid, and are to be disregarded.

The excuses given by the likes of John Yoo, Dick Cheney, and George Bush, to the effect that what US operatives did was not torture because it was not severe enough, are despicable, and no decent human being would wish to be associated with them. It will not be an uncaring God who saves us from the torturers, but courageous and civilised human beings.
 
ab9924 said:
Okay, by ending it for Job, is that a valid extrapolation that He would end it for everything and everyone? (I hope it is, but I am not sure, what do you think?)
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Why does he need to end it for everyone and everything?

Maybe people need to view life differently rather than expecting their perceived crap lot in life to be taken away by divine intervention. If people don't expect dues ex machina then they won't be let down.

Since life is a matter of personal effort, expectation and partially related to what others decide to do - maybe it's just illogical to expect anything other than a rough, bumpy ride.

Looking at the story of Job - I can see several things I would have done differently: a different personal outlook - a different response . . . a different attitude. Job might have had a lot to deal with but damn - he fell apart emotionally and that just made his lot a whole hell of a lot worse.
 
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Leo said:
I'm sorry, but under those specific circumstances, I don't know. I have no medical knowledge, and if the torturers have researched the point to which to take someone scientifically, I expect the pain could go on indefinitely.

At this point, we need to look at the moral dimensions of torture. I'm afraid I could not be confident that God would step in and stop the torture. It has never happened in thousands of years, and it is unlikely to occur in many more thousands of years. So we are left with what empathetic humans can do about it.

Torture, of any sort, has been condemned as illegal by the 1984 UN Convention on Torture and Cruel, Inhuman, and Degrading Treatment. The Treaty expressly forbids torture and condemns its practitioners, and 74 nations are signatories thereto. Torture is clearly defined and any mealy mouthed protestations that the pain and fear inflicted is less than severe are invalid, and are to be disregarded.

The excuses given by the likes of John Yoo, Dick Cheney, and George Bush, to the effect that what US operatives did was not torture because it was not severe enough, are despicable, and no decent human being would wish to be associated with them. It will not be an uncaring God who saves us from the torturers, but courageous and civilised human beings.
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I think you are right, and this truth is scary.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Why does he need to end it for everyone and everything?

Maybe people need to view life differently rather than expecting their perceived crap lot in life to be taken away by divine intervention. If people don't expect dues ex machina then they won't be let down.

Since life is a matter of personal effort, expectation and partially related to what others decide to do - maybe it's just illogical to expect anything other than a rough, bumpy ride.

Looking at the story of Job - I can see several things I would have done differently: a different personal outlook - a different response . . . a different attitude. Job might have had a lot to deal with but damn - he fell apart emotionally and that just made his lot a whole hell of a lot worse.
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I think you have provided the key.
 
ab9924 said:
If you know the answer why that was, can you drop a line about it? I really don't understand that part.
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Have you ever read the Book of Job in its entirety? The teaching was that remaining faithful to God brings rewards. His wife was spared to further test Jobs faith.
 
ab9924 said:
So, it appears that there IS something wrong with the way we were created.
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LOL - we're not immortal.

And we get sick.

And have free will.

Yes - this all sucks. . . but how enjoyable would things be if we didn't have the crap woven in there? We'd just take everything for granted and be miserable.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
LOL - we're not immortal.

And we get sick.

And have free will.

Yes - this all sucks. . . but how enjoyable would things be if we didn't have the crap woven in there? We'd just take everything for granted and be miserable.
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It would not be that miserable, I guess, most animals don't grasp the concept of time, so they can't torture others, BUT they do enjoy their time a lot. Are you saying that being intelligent adds to our happiness?
 
ab9924 said:
It would not be that miserable, I guess, most animals don't grasp the concept of time, so they can't torture others, BUT they do enjoy their time a lot. Are you saying that being intelligent adds to our happiness?
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I'm saying that we're intelligent beings that are self aware and have indepth thought processes - we need scope and balance. The good and the bad . . . in order to function properly.

If we were dumber - it wouldn't matter so much . . . ignorance is bliss in itself.

So just the opposite - our intelligence detracts from our happiness.
 
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Aunt Spiker said:
LOL - we're not immortal.

And we get sick.

And have free will.

Yes - this all sucks. . . but how enjoyable would things be if we didn't have the crap woven in there? We'd just take everything for granted and be miserable.
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What you say is both factual and quite wise. This is not Nirvana, and it would seem that, in the natural course of things, existence is not possible without some of the crap - as you put it. But as to the question of torture - this does not occur in the natural world - there is nothing inevitable or natural about that level of man's inhumanity to man. We need to organise our world, as much as is possible, so that evil people do not get to justify their depravity with claims of 'in the national interest', and that those who instigate and commit these heinous crimes against humanity are brought to justice (not given a cushy sinecure somewhere to save national embarrassment, and to keep them out of the public eye).
 
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