• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Exodus

sharon said:
I think that if you look at the stories as morality tales or teaching narratives, you don't have to wiggle about a cruel God.
Click to expand...

Not at all. God simply isn't to be judged by human standards.
 
rathi said:
I've always wondered how people feel about the 12 plagues of Egypt. I've never really been able to wrap my head around whole killing of the Egyptian first born thing. If Pharaoh was responsible the enslavement of the Isrealites, why wasn't he the one punished?
Click to expand...

there was a great show on the history channel that discussed this. Apparently researchers have been able to link real events that occurred in the region around the same time with all of the plagues. from what I understood, there was a major volcanic eruption just across the Med on one of the Greek islands and the resulting aftermath is what started the onset. It even gave an explanation of the death of the first born. Really interesting.

Not saying I buy it but the information if varified is plausible.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Not at all. God simply isn't to be judged by human standards.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't read the Bible literally because I don't think it was intended as science and history. I think its what is called didactic literature.
 
wolfman24 said:
there was a great show on the history channel that discussed this. Apparently researchers have been able to link real events that occurred in the region around the same time with all of the plagues. from what I understood, there was a major volcanic eruption just across the Med on one of the Greek islands and the resulting aftermath is what started the onset. It even gave an explanation of the death of the first born. Really interesting.

Not saying I buy it but the information if varified is plausible.
Click to expand...

The eruption of Santorini on Thera.. about 1620 BC?
 
Just so. The Hebrews lived in a brutal time surrounded by pagan culture that thought nothing of gross abuses of human dignity. The Old Testament must be seen in this light.
 
sharon said:
Well, I don't read the Bible literally because I don't think it was intended as science and history. I think its what is called didactic literature.
Click to expand...

Is your reading atheistic?
 
ChuckBerry said:
Just so. The Hebrews lived in a brutal time surrounded by pagan culture that thought nothing of gross abuses of human dignity. The Old Testament must be seen in this light.
Click to expand...

Or maybe its just an old old story.

When the Israelites see the power of Yahweh they put their faith in Yahweh and in Moses, and sing a song of praise to the Lord for the crossing of the sea and the destruction of their enemies. (This song, at Exodus 15, is called the Song of the Sea).

The narrative contains at least three and possibly four layers. In the first layer (the oldest), Yahweh blows the sea back with a strong east wind, allowing the Israelites to cross on dry land; in the second, Moses stretches out his hand and the waters part in two walls; in the third, Yahweh clogs the chariot wheels of the Egyptians and they flee (in this version the Egyptians do not even enter the water); and in the fourth, the Song of the Sea, Yahweh casts the Egyptians into "tehomat", the mythical abyss.

Passage of the Red Sea
 
Guy Incognito said:
Is your reading atheistic?
Click to expand...

If I were an atheist, why would I bother to study.

The ancient Jewish scribes never intended it to be history of science.. and the consensus was that if something were scientifically impossible, look for a deeper meaning.
 
sharon said:
If I were an atheist, why would I bother to study.

The ancient Jewish scribes never intended it to be history of science.. and the consensus was that if something were scientifically impossible, look for a deeper meaning.
Click to expand...

If you are not an atheist why would you think that the inerrant word of God would misattribute characteristics to Him? Even if you do not take the story literally, one must reconcile the apparently cruel actions of God with God's infinite mercy. Taking the story as didactic does not sidestep this issue.
 
sharon said:
The eruption of Santorini on Thera.. about 1620 BC?
Click to expand...

As I recall it was an island between Greece and Turkey and was pretty much destroyed that was how violent it was. The dust cloud and ash went as far south and lower Egypt if I rermember. I just cant remember which sorry.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Humans are sinners.
Click to expand...

Thats not my point. You here people all the time saying that God says things or God thinks that or God wills it. this is crap. Personally I think anyone who says they know the "mind" of God should be defined as certifiable. Only God knows Its mind and we are just submicrobes in comparison if that.

Yes people can say, that Jesus said this or that and go from there and thats ok. But you know as well as I do that there are those who slander others and pass judgement on them and say it is what God wanted. This is the real sin and those people have no idea what the Word means IMHO

Gays and people who accept abortion rights are perfect examples in these times, before that it was blacks and Indians.
 
Guy Incognito said:
If you are not an atheist why would you think that the inerrant word of God would misattribute characteristics to Him? Even if you do not take the story literally, one must reconcile the apparently cruel actions of God with God's infinite mercy. Taking the story as didactic does not sidestep this issue.
Click to expand...

The Old Testament is primarily epic Jewish history... Genesis and Exodus were adapted from earlier myths of Sumer and Babylon.. to answer the question, where do I come from and what is my purpose.. The themes repeat themselves.. disobedience, forgiveness and redemption.

The laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy were not "God's" laws.. they were to set the Hebrew apart so they woldn't lose their religion or their identity. There were no huge battles with tens of thousands of soldiers.. They were tribal skirmishes and the Canaanites were never driven off the land.

So what do the stories mean and why should we study them?

IMO your way is fine..

But, I would have lost my faith if I had to believe a man sat in the belly of a fish for three days.. . when to me the story is much much bigger, a moving and comical lesson in the form of a novella.
 
wolfman24 said:
As I recall it was an island between Greece and Turkey and was pretty much destroyed that was how violent it was. The dust cloud and ash went as far south and lower Egypt if I rermember. I just cant remember which sorry.
Click to expand...

The problem with the Santorini story and Exodus.. is they are 300 years apart.
 
ChuckBerry said:
No, it's more than "just" an old story. No point analyzing it if it was merely a tale to tell around the campfire.
Click to expand...

Large bodies of water in the OT were symbolic of fear and chaos... Bondage was symbolic of ignorance.. The story can be read as a people brought out of ignorance and thru chaos to know their God.
 
sharon said:
The problem with the Santorini story and Exodus.. is they are 300 years apart.
Click to expand...

Like I said I do not remember the name but they also talked about whether the period of the plagues matched historical data and I think they said that it did not. the program was on the Naked Archeologist FYI
 
Misbelief said:
I just wanted some clarification

You'll notice that the old testament said that God hardened the pharoahs heart so he wouldn't release the jews....Does this mean god set the situation up so he can purposely kill and torture a bunch of innocent people?
Click to expand...
Yes. He's omnipotent, which means absolutely EVERYTHING is within his control. Therefore every single ounce of human suffering is 100% avoidable and 100% of his construction.

That is, if you believe in him at all.
 
There's no evidence I was at the grocery store yesterday... and yet I can assure you that I was.

What motive would the Jewish people have for making that story up? If they were just randomly making up stories, they could have made one up about god appearing in a bush somewhere in Israel.

I would give it the benefit of the doubt that they were there.

Guy Incognito said:
So anybody want to actually talk about Exodus?

It's highly historically inaccurate, fertile territory for discussion. There is no evidence that the Hebrews were ever in Egypt.
Click to expand...
 
Peter Grimm said:
There's no evidence I was at the grocery store yesterday... and yet I can assure you that I was.

What motive would the Jewish people have for making that story up? If they were just randomly making up stories, they could have made one up about god appearing in a bush somewhere in Israel.

I would give it the benefit of the doubt that they were there.
Click to expand...

There doesn't have to be a motive, it could just be wrong. Before it was written Exodus was probably an oral history. I can imagine something like that may get corrupted like a game of telephone.
 
sharon said:
The Old Testament is primarily epic Jewish history... Genesis and Exodus were adapted from earlier myths of Sumer and Babylon.. to answer the question, where do I come from and what is my purpose.. The themes repeat themselves.. disobedience, forgiveness and redemption.

The laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy were not "God's" laws.. they were to set the Hebrew apart so they woldn't lose their religion or their identity. There were no huge battles with tens of thousands of soldiers.. They were tribal skirmishes and the Canaanites were never driven off the land.

So what do the stories mean and why should we study them?

IMO your way is fine..

But, I would have lost my faith if I had to believe a man sat in the belly of a fish for three days.. . when to me the story is much much bigger, a moving and comical lesson in the form of a novella.
Click to expand...

Whether or not the events of Exodus literally happened, it doesn't change the underlying problem you are failing to address. God took innocent lives. Literal or not, you need to explain why that is not wrong?
 
If God created everyone and everything, isn't it within his right to destroy everyone and everything?

God destroys the entire world during the great flood. He destroys entire cities (Sodom and Gomorrah).

According to the Bible, man only knows the difference between good and evil because we engaged in an act of evil (eating the apple). How, then, can you expect our moral understanding (knowledge between good and evil) to rival God's?

A good Christian/Jew would not question God's morality, because one would have the humility to know our own understanding cannot rival God's.

A non-believer would think the whole story is make-believe anyway, so debating it would be inconsequential.

Misbelief said:
I just wanted some clarification

You'll notice that the old testament said that God hardened the pharoahs heart so he wouldn't release the jews....Does this mean god set the situation up so he can purposely kill and torture a bunch of innocent people?
Click to expand...
 
It could be wrong, but there is no evidence of it being wrong.

Guy Incognito said:
There doesn't have to be a motive, it could just be wrong. Before it was written Exodus was probably an oral history. I can imagine something like that may get corrupted like a game of telephone.
Click to expand...
 
Peter Grimm said:
It could be wrong, but there is no evidence of it being wrong.
Click to expand...

Sure, I agree with that. There is even some explanation for the lack of evidence, in that the Egyptians did not record military defeats, and they certainly wouldn't have recorded the loss of a tribe of slaves.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom