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Catholic Church: "Pay us, or go to hell."

RabidAlpaca

RabidAlpaca

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The pope recently ok'ed a recent maneuver by the catholic church of germany to exclude persons who do not pay the church tax. The church tax in Germany can be up to 8-9% of your income. Officially: "Pay us or you're no longer a catholic."

As an agnostic I find it exceptionally deplorable that the church is still using religion to coerce their members to pay them. With 5 billion in income, and a CEO in a royal palace, it seems more to me like a business than a religion.

Catholics to exclude church tax dodgers - The Local
 
I guess all those church services are just a front. :roll:
 
"Church tax"?

You mean tithing, or is this a TAX?



If it is voluntary, it isn't a tax. Tithing is a whole 'nuther thing.
 
Goshin said:
"Church tax"?

You mean tithing, or is this a TAX?



If it is voluntary, it isn't a tax. Tithing is a whole 'nuther thing.
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I agree in the US, however, in Germany a church tax can be levied by law, the church can even have this collected through he state or do it themselves.
 
I would not be part of any church that imposes a tax.....
 
Connery said:
I agree in the US, however, in Germany a church tax can be levied by law, the church can even have this collected through he state or do it themselves.
Click to expand...


Hmph. I thought that sort of thing ended somewhere around 200 years ago, or more.
 
Ugh.

No religion should have anything to do with this, and no state should be involved.

Bad enough these people get tax-exempt status themselves.
 
If a Catholic notifies the registry office that he has chosen to renounce his faith, thereby allowing him to stop paying church tax, he will receive a letter from a priest that includes a list detailing the consequences of his decision – and an offer to meet for “reconciliation” talks.
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The state keeps records on every citizen's religion and assists the religion in enforcing its decrees?

That is horrible. Shame on Ratzinger.
 
Goshin said:
Hmph. I thought that sort of thing ended somewhere around 200 years ago, or more.
Click to expand...

It still is valid in Germany

Church tax
53. An obligatory church tax is levied by the following religious communities: Roman Catholic Church,
Reformed Church (Calvinist), Lutheran Church, Unified Church, Old Catholic Church, and the
Jewish Community.

54. Those who register at the local registration office should check carefully whether they are members of such a
religious community. If they register as a member of such a community they become automatically subject to
church tax.

55. The rate is 9% or in some states 8% of the amount of income tax. The church tax is a deductible item for the
determination of the taxable income.

56. A payment to foreign churches/communities may be deductible as a donation.
57. The church tax is collected with the income tax/wage tax withholding by the tax office.
Click to expand...

https://www.pwc.com/us/en/hr-international-assignment-services/assets/germany-folio.pdf
 
Wow - that is just seriously . . .. seriously . . . . I can't even say it because we're in the religious forum.

I mean - just. Wow - really? I had no idea . . . everyone is just - ok - with that?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I don't like that at all.
With religion being a deeply personal issue and religious institutions being autonomous organizations, the state shouldn't be collecting dues or notating a persons religion.
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Nothing but dissension and problems with this, in order to find salvation one must pay for it through taxes. That is simply bizarre!!!! Then there are the legal consequences; "Whoever does not pay church tax can no longer receive communion, be confirmed or go to confession. They can no longer be God-parents nor belong to any public church group."
 
Connery said:
Nothing but dissension and problems with this, in order to find salvation one must pay for it through taxes. That is simply bizarre!!!! Then there are the legal consequences; "Whoever does not pay church tax can no longer receive communion, be confirmed or go to confession. They can no longer be God-parents nor belong to any public church group."
Click to expand...

Yea that's just dumb.
If anything, the state is being complicit with the church's policy on discriminating against people, who may not be able to afford the due amount.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
The pope recently ok'ed a recent maneuver by the catholic church of germany to exclude persons who do not pay the church tax. The church tax in Germany can be up to 8-9% of your income. Officially: "Pay us or you're no longer a catholic."

As an agnostic I find it exceptionally deplorable that the church is still using religion to coerce their members to pay them. With 5 billion in income, and a CEO in a royal palace, it seems more to me like a business than a religion.

Catholics to exclude church tax dodgers - The Local
Click to expand...

If I was in Germany I would put together a skit based on the event of Jesus going postal in the Temple and have it video recorded. Since the Catholic church obviously has trouble reading the bible it may be a way to teach them what Jesus taught.

This is just another example of why the Catholic church is the world's largest anti-Christ organization. It is so ass backwards from Jesus that it looks like a group of people sat down and asked:

"How the hell can we take the most basic teachings of Jesus, turn them completely around, then sell the product to the public as a Christian organization?"
 
RabidAlpaca said:
As an agnostic I find it exceptionally deplorable that the church is still using religion to coerce their members to pay them. With 5 billion in income, and a CEO in a royal palace, it seems more to me like a business than a religion.
Click to expand...

That is a very unfair and untrue statement and the tax needs to be placed in context. In Germany, as in many other European countries, Catholic and Protestant cathedrals, monasteries, etc. are the property of the State. The State is responsible for maintaining these facilities and so it applies an additional income tax of 8% for those citizens who are registered Catholics and Protestants. What the Bishops did was to, rightfully, point out that in order to avoid paying the tax these persons had to declare to the State that they were no longer Catholics. In other words, they renounced their faith and effectively rendered themselves ineligible to receive the sacraments. It is ispo facto excommunication and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they are actually paying their taxes. There is also nothing new about this. Ispo facto excommunication for public apostasy has been canon law for many centuries.
 
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Aunt Spiker said:
Wow - that is just seriously . . .. seriously . . . . I can't even say it because we're in the religious forum.

I mean - just. Wow - really? I had no idea . . . everyone is just - ok - with that?
Click to expand...

To us it is a shock but it is due to historically cultural differences. Europe has long been run by religion so they are accustomed to the deep blend of church and state. A perfect game example are the responses balking at the idea it is a tax and not a tithe because it seems like such a suck that is still happening.
 
Napoleon said:
That is a very unfair and untrue statement and the tax needs to be placed in context. In Germany, as in many other European countries, Catholic and Protestant cathedrals, monasteries, etc. are the property of the State. The State is responsible for maintaining these facilities and so it applies an additional income tax of 8% for those citizens who are registered Catholics and Protestants. What the Bishops did was to, rightfully, point out that in order to avoid paying the tax these persons had to declare to the State that they were no longer Catholics. In other words, they renounced their faith and effectively rendered themselves ineligible to receive the sacraments. It is Ispo Facto Excommunication and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they are actually paying their taxes.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for the level headed and reasonable explanation.
 
Napoleon said:
That is a very unfair and untrue statement and the tax needs to be placed in context. In Germany, as in many other European countries, Catholic and Protestant cathedrals, monasteries, etc. are the property of the State. The State is responsible for maintaining these facilities and so it applies an additional income tax of 8% for those citizens who are registered Catholics and Protestants. What the Bishops did was to, rightfully, point out that in order to avoid paying the tax these persons had to declare to the State that they were no longer Catholics. In other words, they renounced their faith and effectively rendered themselves ineligible to receive the sacraments. It is ispo facto excommunication and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they are actually paying their taxes. There is also nothing new about this. Ispo facto excommunication for public apostasy has been canon law for many centuries.
Click to expand...


"The most valuable property holdings of the Catholic Church by nation is the United States with around $50 Billion in visible property holdings and around $507 Billion in hidden property holdings through a massively complex network of front companies and trusts.

The next most valuable property holdings are Germany (US $297 Billion of which only $29 Billion is visible property), France (US $282 Billion of which only $28 Billion is visible), Italy (US $230 Billion of which around $23 Billion is visible), Brazil (US $194 Billion of which around $26 Billion is visible) and Spain (US $158 Billion of which around $15 Billion is visible)."
Evil Acts | The Great Vatican-Jesuit Global Depression of 2009-2012 | The Global Financial Crisis of 2008
 
Furiounova said:
"The most valuable property holdings of the Catholic Church by nation is the United States with around $50 Billion in visible property holdings and around $507 Billion in hidden property holdings through a massively complex network of front companies and trusts.

The next most valuable property holdings are Germany (US $297 Billion of which only $29 Billion is visible property), France (US $282 Billion of which only $28 Billion is visible), Italy (US $230 Billion of which around $23 Billion is visible), Brazil (US $194 Billion of which around $26 Billion is visible) and Spain (US $158 Billion of which around $15 Billion is visible)."
Evil Acts | The Great Vatican-Jesuit Global Depression of 2009-2012 | The Global Financial Crisis of 2008
Click to expand...

So...the Vatican and the Jesuits are to blame for the 2008 financial meltdown.

K.
 
Furiounova said:
"The most valuable property holdings of the Catholic Church by nation is the United States with around $50 Billion in visible property holdings and around $507 Billion in hidden property holdings through a massively complex network of front companies and trusts.

The next most valuable property holdings are Germany (US $297 Billion of which only $29 Billion is visible property), France (US $282 Billion of which only $28 Billion is visible), Italy (US $230 Billion of which around $23 Billion is visible), Brazil (US $194 Billion of which around $26 Billion is visible) and Spain (US $158 Billion of which around $15 Billion is visible)."
Evil Acts | The Great Vatican-Jesuit Global Depression of 2009-2012 | The Global Financial Crisis of 2008
Click to expand...

Those figures are unsourced and unsupported by the facts especially as it relates to European countries. I'm also not interested in bizarre conspiracy theories that the Catholic Church controls all financial markets and currency. It also has nothing to do with this discussion.
 
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ChuckBerry said:
Thanks very much for the level headed and reasonable explanation.
Click to expand...

The explanation contained blatantly false information as I just linked the evidence Germany does not own the Catholic church properties.

Furthermore, a German court ruled people could retain Catholic membership even if they didn't pay the church tax. It doesn't make any sense to say Germany owns the church property while saying people do not have to pay the church tax.

The reason Germany collects the church tax is to maximize revenue for the churches. The Catholic church pays the German government for the services of collecting the tax.

Finally, churches can choose to have Germany collect the taxes or they may choose to collect the taxes themselves. The reason most use the German government is the direct pipeline to annual income of church members.
 
Furiounova said:
If I was in Germany I would put together a skit based on the event of Jesus going postal in the Temple and have it video recorded. Since the Catholic church obviously has trouble reading the bible it may be a way to teach them what Jesus taught.

This is just another example of why the Catholic church is the world's largest anti-Christ organization. It is so ass backwards from Jesus that it looks like a group of people sat down and asked:

"How the hell can we take the most basic teachings of Jesus, turn them completely around, then sell the product to the public as a Christian organization?"
Click to expand...

I'm rereading and reflecting on your sig.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Yea that's just dumb.
If anything, the state is being complicit with the church's policy on discriminating against people, who may not be able to afford the due amount.
Click to expand...

Germany is opposed to this because a court ruled back in 2009 that people could retain membership even if they don't pay the tax:

"In a landmark ruling, a German court has upheld the right of Catholics in Germany to refuse to pay church tax but remain members of the Catholic church."
German court upholds church tax challenge | National Catholic Reporter
 
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