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Why I've Decided Islam is Not a Peaceful Religion

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RabidAlpaca said:
Catholicism is specifically structured around the pope and the vatican, they are not separate entities.

It doesn't change my thesis statement: The only difference between christianity and islam is that more muslims actually do what their holy book tells them.

Both religions are fairly equally theocracy and violence oriented. Western civilization has had more social evolution and development which led to our society no longer accepting the political theocracy or religiously inspired violence.
Click to expand...

While I agree that Islam is where Christianity was 900 years ago and needs to pass through its own Renaissance and Enlightenment... and I am also in agreement that both religions... actually scrath that... all religions, from the abrahamic judaism, christianity and islam to the eastern ones, can easily turn people into mindless zealots (just look at the evangelicals in the USA), I am also equally convinced that Christianity was the best religion that could have ever happened in Europe.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Catholicism is specifically structured around the pope and the vatican, they are not separate entities.
Click to expand...
And how many died of Catholicism this week?
I can cite you a few hundred in the Name of Islam EVERY week. (not just incidental Muslim crime).

RabidAlpaca said:
It doesn't change my thesis statement: The only difference between christianity and islam is that more muslims actually do what their holy book tells them.
Click to expand...
I like that you bolded your main proffer, it makes refutation more poignant.
First, it admits (someone finally) that Mulsims are more literal.
But, second, alas Fails to note they are more literal to a Less Tolerant Book (than the NT) and a book whose enemies/opponents (us) are still extant.

RabidAlpaca said:
Both religions are fairly equally theocracy and violence oriented.
Click to expand...
So sorry.
"Kill them wherever you find them" was never "Turn the other cheek."
Mohammed, the Muslim ideal (to be emulated) was a Warlord, Jesus not even close.
 
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Rainman05 said:
1800 years? From when? Ooooh, you mean 400 years. Sure, yes. 400 years indeed... the Catholic Church had too much power for its own good. But then... meh... protestantism starting, reformed christianity started... the HRE starting becoming more and more unified... the Catholic Church had to play things closer to the vest. sure, in what is now Italy.. they held a lot of power, and also in the smaller states... but never to the extent Islam has today. Witchhunts and such were mostly a legacy that the peasentry sustained without much effort from the Church and the time of the Inquisitions has long passed. The Pope became a political tool like many others in the hands of Emperors and Kings.. and while the times changed, after the Renaissance, Catholicism became a bit more tempered. It became a bit more... relax.. until 300 years later when the Enlightenment kicked into high gear and started bringing about good, civic spirit.

I say that 1800 years is bullsh*t because for centuries after Christ the christians were persecuted... they didn't have a centralized religion organization and the barbarian hordes were devastating the lands. Only after some order was re-established after Charlemagne in the IXth century... did things started progressing for the Catholic church and it found itself in a position to exert a lot of power... and so it did... from the Xth century to the XIVth. Then, as I explained previously.
Click to expand...

Killings by the catholic church began as early as the 4th century AD, and ended as late as the late 18th century. You're still looking at a period of 1400 years of officially sanctioned murder.

In 380, the Roman Christian Emperor Theodosius passed a decree that read:
"We shall believe in the single Deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, under the concept of equal majesty and of the Holy Trinity. We command that those persons who follow this rule shall embrace the name of Catholic Christians. The rest, however, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative, which We shall assume in accordance with the divine judgment."
-- Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History
 
mbig said:
And how many died of Catholicism this week?
I can cite you a few hundred in the Name of Islam EVERY week. (not just incidental Muslim crime).


I like that you bolded your main proffer, it makes refutation more poignant.
First, it admits (someone finally) that Mulsims are more literal.
But, second, alas Fails to note they are more literal to a Less Tolerant Book (than the NT) and a book whose enemies/opponents (us) are still extant.

So sorry.
"Kill them wherever you find them" was never "Turn the other cheek."
Mohammed, the Muslim ideal (to be emulated) was a Warlord, Jesus not even close.
Click to expand...

I can see you hold the typical exceptionalist attitude of most christians. When you step back and take a look at the two religions objectively, you'll notice how strikingly similar they are.

If you add up all of the murders in history committed in the name of christianity and all of the murders committed in the name of islam, the former would outweigh the latter 10 fold.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
I can see you hold the typical exceptionalist attitude of most christians. When you step back and take a look at the two religions objectively, you'll notice how strikingly similar they are.
Click to expand...
I'm a born-Jewish atheist.
I have savaged creationists/God-ists of every stripe including Jewish ones here. (just yesterday in Philosophy section)

As a secularist/Atheist, of course, my biggest problem is with not only the most Pious/primitive but the religion causing the most death in its name.
That would be Islam in Landslide/Death Spiral.
I find their intolerance, intolerable.
True liberals too, should be condemning Islamism, (the biggest threat to speech and individual rights) not apologizing for it.
Of course (and on an un-PC note) there's not much of a line between Islam and Islamism.
Look at Egypt. 70% of 'moderate' Egyptians just elected MB + Salafis.


RabidAlpaca said:
If you add up all of the murders in history committed in the name of christianity and all of the murders committed in the name of islam, the former would outweigh the latter 10 fold.
Click to expand...
Islam is the problem Now and they have scriptural backing.
This 'Crusades'/History stuff is tiring argumentation.
Nothing in their really answers my last pointing out the difference in Holy Books and Prophets of Christianity v Islam.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
Killings by the catholic church began as early as the 4th century AD, and ended as late as the late 18th century. You're still looking at a period of 1400 years of officially sanctioned murder.

In 380, the Roman Christian Emperor Theodosius passed a decree that read:
"We shall believe in the single Deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, under the concept of equal majesty and of the Holy Trinity. We command that those persons who follow this rule shall embrace the name of Catholic Christians. The rest, however, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative, which We shall assume in accordance with the divine judgment."
-- Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I don't know who that person is or why she is an authority on the matter of religious history. I really never heard of her and now that I looked her up... she really isn't anybody worth noticing. Another random individual trying to get published on whatever and going about... whatever things out of context people like that go on about.

Now, since it is 380 AD, it was a period of deep civil conflict and religious conflict because the Empire was turning away from the barbaric religions of paganism that encouraged human sacrifice among other things... to the new religion of Christianity. Therefore, because there were numerous pagan rebellions, decrees and acts of intense vigor were needed to maintain the peace and weaken the support of the pagan rebels. As such, said statement... though I cannot vouch for its accuracy of that particular statement, I do know that during that time several pagan practices have been banned and criminalized, including human sacrifice for ceremonial reasons.

One would argue that witchhunts were the same... except that they weren't done for ceremonial reason but out of fear and ignorance. Things that were only manipulated by the clergy of that, which they themselves were victims of the times, because stupidity is meant to be manipulated... and everybody did so. In Christanitiy's defense... guess what... the only schools that did exist in those periods were maintained and staffed by the Church. So you can thank the christian clergy and the general monastic institution for spreading knowledge, building universities in Italy and not have entire libraries sealed away like the islamic clergy did after the Xth century.
 
mbig said:
And how many died of Catholicism this week?
I can cite you a few hundred in the Name of Islam EVERY week. (not just incidental Muslim crime).


I like that you bolded your main proffer, it makes refutation more poignant.
First, it admits (someone finally) that Mulsims are more literal.
But, second, alas Fails to note they are more literal to a Less Tolerant Book (than the NT) and a book whose enemies/opponents (us) are still extant.

So sorry.
"Kill them wherever you find them" was never "Turn the other cheek."
Mohammed, the Muslim ideal (to be emulated) was a Warlord, Jesus not even close.
Click to expand...

"Kill them wherever you find them" is about the conduct of defensive war.
 
sharon said:
"Kill them wherever you find them" is about the conduct of defensive war.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, it's not. In fact, the verses urge Muslims to drive Meccans out of their own city, which they later did.
 
mbig said:
It doesn't make a difference in the West that is.

ie, Israel, The only 'Jewish state' doesn't even have a death penalty and has Gay parades.
But Muslim countries virtually all have Sharia in varying degree. (no gay parades)
Two of even Different Sect, Iran and Saudi Arabia, ARE Theocracies.
There are NO Christian or Jewish theocracies.

Your post is fallacious Nonsense.
Click to expand...

The biggest Muslim population in the world is in Malaysia. What about them?

The Holy See isn't a theocracy?

False.
They don't "Take a few verses"..
They look at Actual and wide-spread BEHAVIOR First and then go back to the Common Cause of it (from Mauritania to Mindinao)
The only possible deduction.. not to mention the Stated reason for the Violence.
Such as the recent cartoons/movie IS Islamic doctrine.
Click to expand...

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time
TheReligionofPeace - About the List of Islamic Terror Attacks
Click to expand...

:roll:

I tire of this Dishonest PC Radicalism.
Click to expand...

Whatever you want to call it. I really don't care about your wacky opinion on Islam.
 
sharon said:
"Kill them wherever you find them" is about the conduct of defensive war.
Click to expand...
I repeat.
EVERYTHING sharon posts is a Lie. EVERYTHING.

Her last post saying there was "no such thing as Martyrdom in Islam" ! ! ! was an Outrageous Lie. EPIC and Pathological.

This one as well. The verse in question is NOT contested as to 'offense or defense', but to whom it applies. That is, whether or not it just means [Arab] Pagans, or Jews and Chrsitians too.
see Kill Them Wherever You Find Them

Your posts are an Outrage and Pathological/convenient Lies.
Whatever you feel like fabricating - you post as fact.
All your posts are a DISGRACE and having ANY of them on DP is Defacing this board.

I would put you on Ignore, but it's more constructive for those with less knowledge to Not allow you to Foist your Crap.
Needless to say, I will do Everything in my power to see that the Hourly LIES you BLIGHT this board with.. End.
 
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Rainman05 said:
While I agree that Islam is where Christianity was 900 years ago and needs to pass through its own Renaissance and Enlightenment... and I am also in agreement that both religions... actually scrath that... all religions, from the abrahamic judaism, christianity and islam to the eastern ones, can easily turn people into mindless zealots (just look at the evangelicals in the USA), I am also equally convinced that Christianity was the best religion that could have ever happened in Europe.
Click to expand...

That is the reason it did happen in Europe. People don't seem to understand that religion and political culture go hand-in-hand, and the reason why Christianity is the dominant religion in western democratic societies, is because it is compatible with it. Are there some nuts who are Christians? Sure. But they would be nuts no matter what their religious identity was.
 
Djoop said:
Unfortunately, it's not. In fact, the verses urge Muslims to drive Meccans out of their own city, which they later did.
Click to expand...

LOLOL.. You must be getting your history from the Jewish board of governors or Middle East Quarterly.. Its another entitlement argument.

Jewish tribes were the tiny minority on the Arabian Peninsula, but they did sell idols and run the pilgrimage. It was a source of revenue.

Most Arabs were pagans or Nestorian Christians.
 
RadicalModerate said:
The biggest Muslim population in the world is in Malaysia. What about them?
Click to expand...
That is LAUGHABLY False. Not even Close. A Clownish Claim.

http://islam.about.com/od/muslimcountries/a/population.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population
Malaysia Only has 17 million Muslims

The legend continues!

But "about them"? Sure!
https://www.google.com/search?q=malaysia+antisemtism&sugexp=chrome,mod=5&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Try their former/20 year leader 'Matahir Mohammed' too.


The Holy See isn't a theocracy?
Click to expand...
the Holy see isn't a country.
And No one in the Vatican gets stoned for adultery or Hung for apostasy or being gay.
If you make fun of the Pope, no one is going to kill your ambassador or Burn your embassy.

What a Inadequate Little 'reply' to being categorically gutted.

RadicalModerate said:
Whatever you want to call it. I really don't care about your wacky opinion on Islam.
Click to expand...
As I showed, it's your opinion that was Completely Whacked and Dishonest as well.
Saying "you don't care" is your only and defensive 'answer' to having.. NO answer.

another Pathetic Joke of a post by RadicalModerate is Shredded.
 
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sharon said:
LOLOL.. You must be getting your history from the Jewish board of governors or Middle East Quarterly..
Click to expand...
No, I'm a huge anti-semite.
 
mbig said:
That is LAUGHABLY False. Not even Close. A Clownish Claim.

Muslim Population - Statistics About the Muslim Population of the World
List of countries by Muslim population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Malaysia Only has 17 million Muslims
Click to expand...

Sorry. Not Malaysia. Indonesia. ~62% of the world's Muslim population is in Southeast Asia. The majority of the Muslims live there.

the Holy see isn't a country.
And No one in the Vatican gets stoned for adultery or Hung for apostasy or being gay.
If you make fun of the Pope, no one is going to kill your ambassador or Burn your embassy.
Click to expand...

If you won't separate national politics from Islam, I'm not going to get sucked into a retarded, one-sided debate.

What a Inadequate Little 'reply' to being categorically gutted.

As I showed, it's your opinion that was Completely Whacked and Dishonest as well.
Saying "you don't care" is your only and defensive 'answer' to having.. NO answer.

another Pathetic Joke of a post by RadicalModerate is Shredded.
Click to expand...

:shrug:
 
First, You haven't been able to answer my comprehensive destruction of your BS in any way.
That remains here:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...-not-peaceful-religion-10.html#post1060937994
Your basic assumptions/clams, Completely wrong/Fantasy and debunked.
One more country won't matter either way to your many wrong premises..including things like who we tolerate more. 12,000% wrong you were.

Making Mock-reply posts in between just to save face doesn't change that.
You see what happened already.


RadicalModerate said:
Sorry. Not Malaysia. Indonesia. ~62% of the world's Muslim population is in Southeast Asia. The majority of the Muslims live there.

If you won't separate national politics from Islam, I'm not going to get sucked into a retarded, one-sided debate.
Click to expand...
Even though you screwed up, you did, Unwittingly, bring in another Southeast Asian Country which you are now saddled with.
RadicalModerate has NO REPLY AGAIN ... and to His own "Malaysia"!

But as always. "Indonesia"... Sure!
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...-not-peaceful-religion-10.html#post1060937994
One of us does have knowledge in this area and can indulge even your deflections.

Indonesia, Infamously, Home of the Bali Bombing committed by Lasker Jihad and it's leader (abu Bakr Bashir) who spent very little jail time (2 YEARS!) for it because... Indonesia is a Sympathetic .. Islamic country.

And the massive Cleansing and Killing of Christians in East Timor would be well known, if NOT to YOU.
In many of these cases (and many countries) Government troops partipated or looked the other way.
There is violence against non-Muslims as well in Ambon, Sulawesi, the Moluccas, etc.
Been posting on it for 10 Years.
Jakarta Indonesia: Bali Bombers Strike again
US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum - View Single Post - What was the impact of the Zionists on Palestine?

Again, your posts are a JOKE/Bluster and you operate on the theory of just "keep posting til it goes away/gets buried"' and you haven't answered my comprehensive Refutation of your Basic Wrong Position.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...-not-peaceful-religion-10.html#post1060937994

You have no answer, You have wrong assumptions and made Dishonest/now debunked claims to try and back them.
So now it's the Ego-shattered defensive ...
"Well what about this one?"
What's next on the Burden-shifting-fallacy/Bury-it/just-keep-posting agenda?

Last-word away, you got Creamed on every goofy claim.

EDIT to the below.
Your "position" was completely Debunked by me in the post linked twice above.
Try another new one.. like SE Asian countries you know NOTHING about ... but just TRYING to play Burden-shift.
 
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mbig said:
But again, your posts are a JOKE and you operate on the theory of just 'keep postng' til it goes away/gets buried"' and you haven't answered my comprehensive Refutation of your Basic Goody Position.
Click to expand...

My position that Islamic violence is a minority trait of the total world population of Muslims? That's a goofy position?

That Islam, as a theological system, is not culpable for it's followers misdeeds?

That all Muslims are not secretly compelled by a sense of religious duty to support jihadist violence? That most Muslims, while adhering to a philosophy I have strong disagreements with, do not endorse or condone violence? That goofy position?
 
RadicalModerate said:
Sorry. Not Malaysia. Indonesia. ~62% of the world's Muslim population is in Southeast Asia. The majority of the Muslims live there.



If you won't separate national politics from Islam, I'm not going to get sucked into a retarded, one-sided debate.



:shrug:
Click to expand...

Not the insulting EXPERT? LOLOLOL;)
 
mbig said:
I'm a born-Jewish atheist.
I have savaged creationists/God-ists of every stripe including Jewish ones here. (just yesterday in Philosophy section)

As a secularist/Atheist, of course, my biggest problem is with not only the most Pious/primitive but the religion causing the most death in its name.
That would be Islam in Landslide/Death Spiral.
I find their intolerance, intolerable.
True liberals too, should be condemning Islamism, (the biggest threat to speech and individual rights) not apologizing for it.
Of course (and on an un-PC note) there's not much of a line between Islam and Islamism.
Look at Egypt. 70% of 'moderate' Egyptians just elected MB + Salafis.


Islam is the problem Now and they have scriptural backing.
This 'Crusades'/History stuff is tiring argumentation.
Nothing in their really answers my last pointing out the difference in Holy Books and Prophets of Christianity v Islam.
Click to expand...
The fundamental question is whether islam is a peaceful religion or not. Considering neither the christian nor the islamic texts have changed in over a thousand years, and the former has a much higher death toll, christianity can still be classified as the more violent and less peaceful of the two religions. The only thing that stopped the christian church from killing, and keeps them from killing even today, is the fact that our society no longer allows it.

Rainman05 said:
I'm sorry, I don't know who that person is or why she is an authority on the matter of religious history. I really never heard of her and now that I looked her up... she really isn't anybody worth noticing. Another random individual trying to get published on whatever and going about... whatever things out of context people like that go on about.

Now, since it is 380 AD, it was a period of deep civil conflict and religious conflict because the Empire was turning away from the barbaric religions of paganism that encouraged human sacrifice among other things... to the new religion of Christianity. Therefore, because there were numerous pagan rebellions, decrees and acts of intense vigor were needed to maintain the peace and weaken the support of the pagan rebels. As such, said statement... though I cannot vouch for its accuracy of that particular statement, I do know that during that time several pagan practices have been banned and criminalized, including human sacrifice for ceremonial reasons.

One would argue that witchhunts were the same... except that they weren't done for ceremonial reason but out of fear and ignorance. Things that were only manipulated by the clergy of that, which they themselves were victims of the times, because stupidity is meant to be manipulated... and everybody did so. In Christanitiy's defense... guess what... the only schools that did exist in those periods were maintained and staffed by the Church. So you can thank the christian clergy and the general monastic institution for spreading knowledge, building universities in Italy and not have entire libraries sealed away like the islamic clergy did after the Xth century.
Click to expand...
You do realize that she didn't say that quote right? If you read it you would realize it was a decree by the Roman Christian Emperor, and that she just happened to be the person referencing the quote on the site I found.
 
Hugh_Akston said:
This forum is dedicated and limited to discussions of religion, faith, and spirituality. Threads/posts critical of religion and spiritual aspects are not allowed here and will result in a B/F/T Infraction + Thread Ban.
Click to expand...

Moderator's Warning:
Thread Closed. In keeping with the spirit of the religion forum i'll just end by saying "For what some of you are about to receive, I doubt you will be truly grateful."

Amen.
 
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