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Catholic Church has Indian skeptic arrested for explaining miracle

Einzige

Einzige

Elitist as Hell.
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Undoubtedly we'll be told that this is just a problem with India, and that you can hardly blame the Church for using India's laws to their advantage. How... moral.

The BHA supports Sanal Edamaruku, President of the Indian Rationalist Association, who risks arrest over blasphemy accusation

The BHA supports Sanal Edamaruku, President of the Indian Rationalist Association, who risks arrest over blasphemy accusation
Sanal Edamaruku, President of the Indian Rationalist Association and the Rationalist International, has been accused of blasphemy by the Catholic Church in India, and is facing the risk of arrest and court proceedings. Sanal, who has spent much of his career exposing so-called ‘miracles’, investigated the case of a ‘bleeding statue’ outside a Mumbai church in March this year, revealing on a television programme that the ‘blood’ apparently dripping from the statue was in fact sewage leaking from a nearby drain. The Catholic Church then started legal proceedings against him under India’s blasphemy laws, which could result in his imminent arrest. The British Humanist Association (BHA) supports Sanal Edamaruku and condemns the attempt to prosecute and silence him.

Sanal took part in a television programme on 10 March in which he investigated the crucifix in front of the Church of Our Lady of Velankanni, located in the Vile Parle area of Mumbai, which appeared to be producing droplets of water from the feet of the figure of Jesus. The Catholic Church hailed this phenomenon as a miracle, and some believers started to collect and drink the water in the belief that it had special properties. However, Sanal revealed that the water or ‘blood’ which was apparently being produced by the statue was in fact sewage which was leaking from a nearby drainage system. The Catholic Church then made a complaint against Sanal of ‘deliberately hurting religious feelings’, which exists under Section 295A of India’s Penal Code, and can carry severe penalties.

Sanal then applied for ‘anticipatory bail’ to ensure that he would not have to remain in prison if arrested, but the court has turned down this request. Although no formal arrest warrant has been issued, he could now be arrested at any time, and he has started to receive calls from the police in Mumbai asking him to report to the police station. His lawyers are advising him to leave the country for a while.

Pavan Dhaliwal, the BHA Head of Public Affairs, commented that ‘it is outrageous that the Catholic Church is attempting to use an oppressive and outdated law to silence Sanal Edamaruku. Blasphemy laws should have no place in a democratic society. We call on the Catholic Church in India to withdraw their complaint against Sanal, and to cease all legal proceedings against him immediately. We also call upon the Indian Government to abolish Section 295A of the Indian penal code, to ensure that no more blasphemy prosecutions can take place in the future.’
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Let them drink sewage if they want.
 
Jerry said:
Let them drink sewage if they want.
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Of course. After all, that Catholic, objective, fundamental, universal, catholic morality does not extend to other Catholics drinking sewage.
 
Going to church is like going to a museum. You're talking about art, so you better make sure you don't have an offensive opinion.

The art at stake is taken to heart where people are vulnerable. It's not your right to exploit that vulnerability.
 
Daktoria said:
Going to church is like going to a museum. You're talking about art, so you better make sure you don't have an offensive opinion.

The art at stake is taken to heart where people are vulnerable. It's not your right to exploit that vulnerability.
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Neither is it the right of the Church to exploit the vulnerability of parishoners - to convince them to drink sewage. Political correctness - an overregard for the sensitivity of others - pales before it.
 
If you want to make a complaint, complain outside of church, not inside it.

You're not going to get far making an appeal to pragmatism here. I'll refer you to Kant's empirical idealism fallacy again.
 
Daktoria said:
If you want to make a complaint, complain outside of church, not inside it.
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Sanal did complain outside of the Church. He complained on a television program.

You're not going to get far making an appeal to pragmatism here. I'll refer you to Kant's empirical idealism fallacy again.
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I'm not appealing to pragmatism. I'm appealing to your pretense that Catholicism actually holds to a universal morality - when it places the subjective emotions of a few parishoners over their material wellbeing. Then again, 'universal' moralities, so-called, almost always tend towards relativism in their own defense.

You know, as much as people give Protestant fundamentalists a hard time about being opposed to the use of Reason in the figuring-out of their theology, the Catholics - who pretend to actually care about Reason - are the only ones who seem to appeal to established law to stifle it.
 
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Einzige said:
Sanal did complain outside of the Church. He complained on a television program.
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Then why are you complaining about the Catholic Church? You should be complaining about India.

I'm not appealing to pragmatism. I'm appealing to your pretense that Catholicism actually holds to a universal morality - when it places the subjective emotions of a few parishoners over their material wellbeing. Then again, 'universal' moralities, so-called, almost always tend towards relativism in their own defense.

You know, as much as people give Protestant fundamentalists a hard time about being opposed to the use of Reason in the figuring-out of their theology, the Catholics - who pretend to actually care about Reason - are the only ones who seem to appeal to established law to stifle it.
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I don't really care about Catholicism here. It could be Hinduism for all that matters.
 
Who in the church is trying to convince anyone to drink sewage? Have the skeptics claims been proven?


Sent from my homing pigeon using Crapatalk.
 
ChuckBerry said:
Who in the church is trying to convince anyone to drink sewage? Have the skeptics claims been proven?
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From the article:

However, Sanal revealed that the water or ‘blood’ which was apparently being produced by the statue was in fact sewage which was leaking from a nearby drainage system.
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Is there any reason I ought to doubt the article?

Then why are you complaining about the Catholic Church? You should be complaining about India.
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Instrumental fallacy. The Church is using the State of India as an instrument to preserve its own status among its believers. The law is asinine, sure. But the villain in this story is Catholicism.
 
Einzige said:
From the article:



Is there any reason I ought to doubt the article?



Instrumental fallacy. The Church is using the State of India as an instrument to preserve its own status among its believers. The law is asinine, sure. But the villain in this story is Catholicism.
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No, you're just being prejudiced in criticizing the actor, not the action. You're also excusing the facilitator which makes you seem further prejudiced.

Might as well be blaming black people in Detroit for engaging in prostitution.
 
Daktoria said:
No, you're just being prejudiced in criticizing the actor, not the action. You're also excusing the facilitator which makes you seem further prejudiced.

Might as well be blaming black people in Detroit for engaging in prostitution.
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The actor and the action are the self-same. I'm a smoker if I smoke; my smoking and myself are indistinguishable. The Catholic hierarchy in India - of this church, at the least - is responsible for applying the force of the State to pervert the free exercise of the media. That's final: and no appeal to the sentiments of the parishoners can change that.

And yeah, black prostitutes in Detroit can be blamed for engaging in prostitution. Is there a reason you feel the need to mention black prostitutes?
 
Einzige said:
The actor and the action are the self-same. I'm a smoker if I smoke; my smoking and myself are indistinguishable. The Catholic hierarchy in India - of this church, at the least - is responsible for applying the force of the State to pervert the free exercise of the media. That's final: and no appeal to the sentiments of the parishoners can change that.
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Right, but it doesn't matter what you smoke.

Similarly, it doesn't matter what religion accuses blasphemy.

And yeah, black prostitutes in Detroit can be blamed for engaging in prostitution. Is there a reason you feel the need to mention black prostitutes?
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Yes. Blacks are the ones who resort to prostitution due to living in the ghetto.

Does that make it bad because they're black? No. Prostitution is bad on its own merit, and the Detroit government deserve to be held accountable for tolerating dilapidated living standards.
 
Daktoria said:
Right, but it doesn't matter what you smoke.

Similarly, it doesn't matter what religion accuses blasphemy.
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Sure. And I'd be just as outraged had it been a Hindu mandir resorting to using the law to hush up any criticism of their practices. I'm sure it's happened before, and I'd be just as happy to denounce it - being an evil, amoral, immoral individualist and all. I'm as prejudiced against the Catholic Church as I am against all churches, temples, synagogues, deresars, mosques, etc. etc. It's just that, in this case, the Catholics happened to have been caught red-handed, as seems to be an increasingly common occurrence these days. If I'm quicker to judge Catholicism, it's because Catholics in America seem to have taken an undue role in telling us what we all ought to do.

Yes. Blacks are the ones who resort to prostitution due to living in the ghetto.

Does that make it bad because they're black? No. Prostitution is bad on its own merit, and the Detroit government deserve to be held accountable for tolerating dilapidated living standards.
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Sure, prostitution is bad on its own merit. And prostitutes are bad on their own merits.

Ah, relativism. It's bad when Peter engages in it, but it's alright when Paul engages in it in defense of moral objectivism.
 
Einzige said:
Is there any reason I ought to doubt the article?.
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Two actually; objectivity and fairness. We have two conflicting claims as to the source of the water. Just because a skeptic says it's sewage doesn't mean he's right. It might be water condensation, not a leak at all, or it might be a hoax. Then again, it might be a miracle. My point is if you're going to. e skeptical, don't take ANYTHING at face value.




Sent from my homing pigeon using Crapatalk.
 
ChuckBerry said:
Two actually; objectivity and fairness. We have two conflicting claims as to the source of the water. Just because a skeptic says it's sewage doesn't mean he's right. It might be water condensation, not a leak at all, or it might be a hoax. Then again, it might be a miracle. My point is if you're going to. e skeptical, don't take ANYTHING at face value.
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I see no particular reason to assume it's a miracle: extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence and all that. The Catholic Church claims it's holy; let them prove it - and that, I might add, most certainly requires not calling in the State on anyone who wants to put it to the test. "Test all spirits," says Paul, and I see no reason why Paul's followers ought to exempt their own spirits from that dictate.

And if it's water condensation, or from any other form of natural water source, that still doesn't mean it's alright to let parishoners drink from it without telling them. Cholera spreads through water in unsanitary conditions; I'd be very hesitant to allow anyone to drink from an unrecognized water source in India for that reason alone.

In short: if the Church wants to advertise this as a 'miracle', let them demonstrate it is.
 
What evidence do you have other than the OP article claim that the church is "advertising this", or an official claim from the church that this has been claimed a "miracle"?


Sent from my homing pigeon using Crapatalk.
 
Einzige said:
From the article:



Is there any reason I ought to doubt the article?



Instrumental fallacy. The Church is using the State of India as an instrument to preserve its own status among its believers. The law is asinine, sure. But the villain in this story is Catholicism.
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Yeah, it's obvious they would do the same in the US or other places if able to. They in fact used to in many of them. Likewise we can hold contempt for Islam because its influence in places like Saudi is limitless, even though muslims here tend to be more moderate. These cultures can't emerge from medieval times until they first put an end to religious involvement in government.
 
The Juhu police station has issued a warrant against Sanal Edamaruku, a rationalist, after complaints from a Catholic activist.

Not the Catholic church.

“Firstly, no one ever declared that it was a miracle,” said Arcanjo Sodder, lawyer for the complainant Agnelo Fernandes.

...and certainly not the church.

“We first asked him to apologise to us. Now the time for apology has long gone. He must be arrested,” said Joseph Dias of the Catholic Secular Forum who filed another complaint.

Catholic Secular Forum. Not the Catholic church.

All the above bolded taken from: Rationalist in dock for questioning ‘miracle’ that wasn't declared one - Mumbai - DNA

In a statement emailed to AFP, Dias denied the dripping crucifix had been hailed as a miracle -- a status that requires an official Church pronouncement

Read more: Dripping crucifix sparks Indian blasphemy accusations - NY Daily News

Even these tidbits were hard to come by, as Google searches come up with page after page of atheist and skeptic sites that unashamedly report opinion as fact, but little real reporting. Skeptics? Unless you are willing to challenge your own assumptions, you are a p!ss poor skeptic.
 
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