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The War in Heaven

Allow me to begin by saying that I don't have a dog in this fight.

Either "God" as Christians refer to it is All and all powerful or "God" is not All and not omnipotent. God is All or God is less. If you believe there is a war in heaven then you believe in a vulnerable and incomplete god that is not omnipotent.

In my view this isn't about whether God is omnipotent or not, it's about the management structure in heaven. God gave authority to various angels (e.g., archangels). Among these were Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and by some, Lucifer (Morning Star). Lucifer thinks himself equal to God, and fights with God. He loses.
 
Freewill means when people are put in front of true choices, they will divide. If people don't divide it means that either freewill is absence or the lack of true choices. Humans' division has been arranged to occur on earth, while the angels' division has been arranged to occur in heaven. Unlike man, angels are born to know God and born to serve God, they are not given the freewill in full. The division of the angels thus shall occur in heaven. As for humans, their division will be on earth where God's influence and that of Satan co-exist.
 
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It has all the ingredients of mythology. Lucifer disagreeing with God over taking a human form. The war which resulted in Lucifer being cast out by Micheal and many Angels following him.

Problem is I cannot find anything about it in a bible. I'm wondering if it's covered in the Jewish holy books or even the Koran.

Any and all insight appreciated,

Thanks

I always wondered if Lucifer had won, how would we really know? Say Lucifer wins and takes over, but decides to lord over us. The bible, word of "god", could be influenced by him and as a propaganda campaign such that no mortal question his sovereignty, yes? The books of the bible were written after the events themselves, so Lucifer could easily had said that the other dude was the rebel and he got kicked out and he was a bad dude. And perhaps that theory explains the marked change between the god of the old testament and the god of the new testament.
 
I always wondered if Lucifer had won, how would we really know? Say Lucifer wins and takes over, but decides to lord over us. The bible, word of "god", could be influenced by him and as a propaganda campaign such that no mortal question his sovereignty, yes? The books of the bible were written after the events themselves, so Lucifer could easily had said that the other dude was the rebel and he got kicked out and he was a bad dude. And perhaps that theory explains the marked change between the god of the old testament and the god of the new testament.

Sounds like a gnostic offshoot to me.
 
I always wondered if Lucifer had won, how would we really know? Say Lucifer wins and takes over, but decides to lord over us......
I've read somewhere that when God kicked Lucifer out of heaven, he bannished him to the earth and Lucifer made it his realm. Earth is hell and having a mortal body is as low on the ladder of spiritual enlightment as it gets. So perhaps thats why they say humans are born in sin and always tempted to do the devils work, but if they learn to resist temptation on earth then they can graduate to the next level of enlightenment aka know God and heaven.
 
It has all the ingredients of mythology. Lucifer disagreeing with God over taking a human form. The war which resulted in Lucifer being cast out by Micheal and many Angels following him.

Problem is I cannot find anything about it in a bible. I'm wondering if it's covered in the Jewish holy books or even the Koran.

Any and all insight appreciated,

Thanks

It was developed by some fringe Jewish sects who took some ideas from Zoroastrians. It found its way into Christian belief at a much later date.

The problem with this story, is that it completely contradicts what Judaism teaches about Angels. In Judaism, Angels are not much more than statues/standard bearers. They are completely good, lacking any evil thoughts or inclinations. It is assumed they are uncorruptable. As such, a revolt is simply not possible. It gives angels godlike abilities.

Also the premise of the story doesn't make much sense. If God is capable of destroying Satan, wouldn't it be in his and our best interests to do so? Just put him in a celestial brig or something.
 
It gives angels godlike abilities.


That's what it is about, God's soverignty. Can creation judge right and wrong for itself? Lucifer thought so. Adam thought so. But Jesus was faithful.
 
Also the premise of the story doesn't make much sense. If God is capable of destroying Satan, wouldn't it be in his and our best interests to do so? Just put him in a celestial brig or something.

He cast Lucifer and all others who followed his disobedience out of Heaven. He won't destroy Satan, or Lucifer, or any of the other disobedient angels anymore than He'll destroy a disobedient human. That's what the Final Judgment is for. Besides, God has made use of fallen angels before, and it's been demonstrated through the Book of Job that the fallen can't physically harm others without God's permission. Destroying them now serves no purpose, and they're still useful in their current state. There's simply no need to destroy them, since they're serving their punishment by being banished from their home.
 
It has all the ingredients of mythology. Lucifer disagreeing with God over taking a human form. The war which resulted in Lucifer being cast out by Micheal and many Angels following him.

Problem is I cannot find anything about it in a bible. I'm wondering if it's covered in the Jewish holy books or even the Koran.

Any and all insight appreciated,

Thanks
You will never find a book of myths that refers to itself as myth.
 
He cast Lucifer and all others who followed his disobedience out of Heaven. He won't destroy Satan, or Lucifer, or any of the other disobedient angels anymore than He'll destroy a disobedient human. That's what the Final Judgment is for. Besides, God has made use of fallen angels before, and it's been demonstrated through the Book of Job that the fallen can't physically harm others without God's permission. Destroying them now serves no purpose, and they're still useful in their current state. There's simply no need to destroy them, since they're serving their punishment by being banished from their home.

None of that makes sense to a Jewish mind. Angels can not sin.
 
None of that makes sense to a Jewish mind. Angels can not sin.

To get started:

Eden, just a regular snake?

The angel of Israel was interfered with by the angel of Persia. (Da)
13 But the guardian angel[g] of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, who is one of the strongest guardian angels,[h] came to rescue me from the kings of Persia.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+10-12&version=CEV

And

[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord was terrifying him.
1 Samuel 16:14-23 CEV - David Plays the Harp for Saul - The - Bible Gateway
 
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None of that makes sense to a Jewish mind. Angels can not sin.

What makes you think that in a Jewish mind that angels cannot sin? In a Jewish mind, the angels can sin. The whole Bible (OT and NT) was basically written by the Jews. And there are contents that the angels can sin and being chained to the darkness. Other Jewish documents such as the book of Enoch also contain such a concept. Angels sinning is actually a concept from the Jews.

And for your information, the following verse was written by a Jew.

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
 
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What makes you think that in a Jewish mind that angels cannot sin? In a Jewish mind, the angels can sin. The whole Bible (OT and NT) was basically written by the Jews. And there are contents that the angels can sin and being chained to the darkness. Other Jewish documents such as the book of Enoch also contain such a concept. Angels sinning is actually a concept from the Jews.

And for your information, the following verse was written by a Jew.

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

The New Testament was written by Greeks, many of them ex-Pagans.

Jude was not written by a Jew. It wasn't accepted as by Judas until around 200CE. Jude is the one that first shows that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality. This is false, the Hebrew Bible clearly says that all of the town of Sodom came to the front of Lot's house. A town includes women and children.
 
To get started:

Eden, just a regular snake?

The angel of Israel was interfered with by the angel of Persia. (Da)

Daniel 10-12 CEV - Daniel

And

1 Samuel 16:14-23 CEV - David Plays the Harp for Saul - The - Bible Gateway

No, the "snake" (the word is serpent -_-) in Gan Eden was a seraph, not a species of snake. It could talk, and we know snakes can not speak. (unless your Solomon)

Your first verse is mis-translated. Is the CEV your preferred translation? It's not a very good one.
Here is the verse translated directly from the original language (and confirmed by me, as I know said original language)
"And the prince of the kingdom of Persia has been standing against me for twenty-one days, and behold Michael, one of the first princes, has come to help, and I remained there beside the kings of Persia."

What does Daniel mean when he says "has been standing against me"?

According to Rashi, this is a battle between the protector of the Kingdom of Persia, and Michael (the protector of Israel). Daniel is thus preventing the complete subjugation of Israel by Persia.

According to Jewish belief, the 70 nations (including Israel and Persia) were assigned one elohim (power, in this case angel) for their protection. If there was a dispute between the human nations, the protector/guardian angels would share in the dispute.

It's an ancient concept "what happens on Earth, also happens in Heaven", shared by a lot of Ancient cultures.

________
The spirit of evil mentioned in the other verses you linked to has nothing to do with the subject. God does manipulate people, especially rulers like Pharaoh and King Saul.
 
Jude was not written by a Jew. It wasn't accepted as by Judas until around 200CE. Jude is the one that first shows that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality. This is false, the Hebrew Bible clearly says that all of the town of Sodom came to the front of Lot's house. A town includes women and children.

He probably was a Jew, and Paul says the Jews got the Scripture.

The Epistle title is written as follows: "Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James" (NRSV). There is a dispute as to whether "brother" means someone who has the same father and mother, or a half-brother or cousin or more distant familial relationship. This dispute over the true meaning of "brother" grew as the doctrine of the Virgin Birth evolved.[8][9][10]

The debate has continued over the author's identity as the apostle, the brother of Jesus, both, or neither. Some scholars have argued that since the author of that letter has not identified himself as an apostle and actually refers to the apostles as a third party, he cannot be identified with the Jude who is listed as one of the Twelve.[11][12][13] Others have drawn the opposite conclusion, i.e., that as an apostle, he would not have made such a claim on his own behalf.[14] The many Judes, named in the gospels and among the relatives of Jesus,[15][16] and his relationship to James the Just called the brother of Jesus has caused much confusion. Not a lot is known of Jude, which would explain the apparent need to identify him by reference to his better-known brother.[4] It is agreed that he is not the Jude who betrayed Jesus, Judas Iscariot.

Epistle of Jude - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Romans 3 KJV - What advantage then hath the Jew? or - Bible Gateway


Regarding Seraphs:

Tradition places seraphs in the fifth rank of ten in the Jewish angelic hierarchy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph



What do you mean about Solomon?
 
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It has all the ingredients of mythology. Lucifer disagreeing with God over taking a human form. The war which resulted in Lucifer being cast out by Micheal and many Angels following him.

Any and all insight appreciated,

Thanks

I suspect it's a metaphor for the personal inner struggle of the individual, between what we should be, what we want to be, and what we are.
 
Also referenced in Isaiah 14:12

That's a latter-day misinterpretation by Christians.

Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12-17

Now, if we look at the text of Isaiah 14 in context, and without the assumptions we brought to it from the New Testament, the meaning of the passage becomes more obvious and goes a radically different direction. The book of Isaiah has spent the first chapters denouncing the sins of Israel and its failure to be God’s people. There have also been expectations that God will work in new ways in the life of the nation to help them recover their mission as God’s people. One of those ways would be through a new king to replace the corrupt Ahaz. Because of his pro-Assyrian policies, the nation was teetering upon the brink of catastrophe as Assyria expanded to the West (see Assyrian Dominance).

Isaiah 13 begins a long section of the book known as "Oracles Against Foreign Nations." This is a standardized format in the prophets for universalizing responsibility to God. Not only Israel, but all nations, were accountable to God and would fall under the same judgment Israel would. As is typical in other prophetic books (Amos, Jeremiah, Ezekiel) not all of these oracles come from the same time period as Isaiah of Jerusalem, but they do follow a similar pattern and serve the same function in the book.

Isaiah 13 is part of the oracle directed against Babylon, probably from a time after the Exile. In very flowery, poetic, and highly figurative language, Babylon is denounced for her arrogance and lack of concern for other nations as she built her empire. It is interesting that in 13:10, specific mention is made of the failure of the Babylonian gods (constellations, sun, moon) to help them when God calls then to accountability.

Chapter 14 then begins with the promise of Israel’s return from Babylonian exile, a theme that dominates the middle section of Isaiah (40-55). Part of that return would involve the downfall of the tyrant king of Babylon (v. 4; probably Nebuchadrezzer; for the same language used of a later Babylonian ruler, Belshazzar, see Dan 5:20). In that context, verses 12-21 are a poetic picture of that downfall. Helel, morning star, and Shahar, dawn, then, are references to the Babylonian gods who could not save the king, and are themselves to be cast down. In fact, there is probably a reference here to the habit of ancient Near Eastern kings proclaiming themselves incarnations of the gods; with the fall of the kings, the gods also fell, often physically as the images that represented them were pulled down and destroyed (recall the symbolism of the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad).

So, the Isaiah passage does not connect, either historically or theologically, with the New Testament passages about the devil or the satan. By listening to the Old Testament passage on its own terms within its own context, we discover that Lucifer is not an Old Testament name for the devil or the satan. The passage in Isaiah 14:12-17 is directed at the downfall of the arrogant Babylonian rulers who took Israel into exile. By beginning with the New Testament, by making assumptions not supported by a closer examination of Scripture itself, and by using external theological categories as a lens through which to read Scripture, we may end up badly misreading Isaiah.
 
Milton's "Paradise Lost" is the source, I think, of much of our "understanding" of Lucifer.
 
The problem I've always had with the whole lucifer side of the mythology is how can an intelligent being oppose an all powerful, all knowing, loving and good god. The answer i got was that satan is by his very definition evil. Putting aside the assertion that he was created by the "good" god character,this rationlizqtion never rang true.

Of course after actally reading the bible i realizied the god is only considered good is because he's allpowerful and willing to smite those who say otherwise. Exactly like kim john in north korea, only bigger and badder.

So, it becomes clear that lucifer rebelled because he was a moral being willing to risk everything to throw off the yoke of an evil tyrant. He lost so the winner wrote history and called him evil. The ultimate story of might makes right.
 
It has all the ingredients of mythology. Lucifer disagreeing with God over taking a human form. The war which resulted in Lucifer being cast out by Micheal and many Angels following him.

Problem is I cannot find anything about it in a bible. I'm wondering if it's covered in the Jewish holy books or even the Koran.

Any and all insight appreciated,

Thanks

I believe it's referenced in Isaiah.
 
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