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What would happen to me?

Jesus demonstrated, for all to see, that there was an afterlife. For those who were there, it wasn't faith for them, because they wrote down what they saw. For us it takes faith to believe what they claim to have seen and experienced. The neat thing is that we can experience God as well.

That's it exactly, it takes faith to believe the claim that someone died and then rose from the dead. Who's to say he was actually alive when they thought he was dead, or that they just made it up to gain followers, or that someone made it up over hundreds of years of translations? There's no way to know what actually happened, so instead we have to rely on faith, which means "firm belief in something for which there is no proof."

For me the greatest proof of God's existence is my own. My own awareness of my self and surroundings, call it being self-aware, or what have you. But just looking into a mirror makes me ask why am I able to do that?[/QUOTE]

I'm just curious why you being alive=God. There are scientific explanations for why we exist and why the planet exists in its current form, and they are based on demonstrable evidence.
 
I'm just curious why you being alive=God. There are scientific explanations for why we exist and why the planet exists in its current form, and they are based on demonstrable evidence.

There are scientific theories about where we come from yes, but they fall well short of explaining things to my mind. Suffice it to say that I'm skeptical of all the explanations that make large leaps of blind faith, that aren't demonstrable (such as claiming that intelligence arises from non-intelligent matter). Ultimately though it's a personal thing. And that is the point. Why are things personal? Why do I see out of these eyes? Science can help answer how things happen, but they can't answer purpose. Why do we exist?
 
That's it exactly, it takes faith to believe the claim that someone died and then rose from the dead. Who's to say he was actually alive when they thought he was dead, or that they just made it up to gain followers, or that someone made it up over hundreds of years of translations? There's no way to know what actually happened, so instead we have to rely on faith, which means "firm belief in something for which there is no proof."

For me the greatest proof of God's existence is my own. My own awareness of my self and surroundings, call it being self-aware, or what have you. But just looking into a mirror makes me ask why am I able to do that?

I'm just curious why you being alive=God. There are scientific explanations for why we exist and why the planet exists in its current form, and they are based on demonstrable evidence.[/QUOTE]

There is no demonstrable evidence of how life began.
 
I'm just curious why you being alive=God. There are scientific explanations for why we exist and why the planet exists in its current form, and they are based on demonstrable evidence.

There is no demonstrable evidence of how life began.[/QUOTE]our limited intellect prevents us from understanding God, and likewise most of science.
 
There is no demonstrable evidence of how life began.our limited intellect prevents us from understanding God, and likewise most of science.
Interestingly, I think we have the intellect as a species, but we do not have the information and can not since we are in the finite world. Thus we learn to think in the finite from a young age but there is a potential infinitum that we cannot tap into.
 
That's it exactly, it takes faith to believe the claim that someone died and then rose from the dead. Who's to say he was actually alive when they thought he was dead, or that they just made it up to gain followers, or that someone made it up over hundreds of years of translations? There's no way to know what actually happened, so instead we have to rely on faith, which means "firm belief in something for which there is no proof."

Sorry it appears I missed this part of your post.

Ultimately you are correct, we rely on faith in so many aspects of our lives, I don't think we even realize it. Even believing what scientists say is an act of faith.

That being said, I think there is strong historical evidence for Jesus being dead, and then being alive again as was recorded by those witnesses. Further, I don't think the theory that the followers made it up holds much water.
 
You see too many movies, dear

Hell is not as portrayed by Hollywood. It is a place of suffering, but you've got to read everything in context to understand it. Heaven is union with God. Hell is separation from God. Since the soul is immortal, that is forever. It is not ruled by the Devil/Satan. He gets to go there too. The references to fire are to give you something you can tangibly understand. Our bodies are mortal and die. Salvation does not keep you from physical death, it saves you from spiritual death, i.e. separation from God, i.e. Hell.

But the gist of what she says still stands: A god who sets up a spiritual system wherein a person is separated from god (hell - eternal punishment) due to unbelief, is inherently unjust. It matters not one tiny bit that you redefine the punishment and/or the mechanism by which it comes to pass. I also refuse to love a god of such caprice, whether he exists or not. Should such a god exist after all, he is evil.
 
Anagram: I'm perfectly content with not knowing - no one knows. . . they only think they know.

That's the only truth to any of it.
 
There is no demonstrable evidence of how life began.

Well what I said was that there are scientific explanations that are based on evidence. What I consider evidence in this case are experiments like the Miller-Urey experiment that have shown that organic compounds can form from inorganic compounds under certain circumstances. Based on we know about early Earth, amino acids and organic compounds, the scientific explanation from the evidence in that experiment is that life might have originated in this way. To me, that is far more compelling of an explanation (or at least the beginning of an understanding) of how life began. It is rooted in experimental evidence, not religious myth.
 
There are scientific theories about where we come from yes, but they fall well short of explaining things to my mind. Suffice it to say that I'm skeptical of all the explanations that make large leaps of blind faith, that aren't demonstrable (such as claiming that intelligence arises from non-intelligent matter). Ultimately though it's a personal thing. And that is the point. Why are things personal? Why do I see out of these eyes? Science can help answer how things happen, but they can't answer purpose. Why do we exist?

So you're skeptical of explanations that require large leaps of blind faith, but you believe that a human died and came back to life because people wrote about it 2,000 years ago? Do you believe evolution is a hoax? Because I'm wondering when exactly you think "intelligence" arose from "non-intelligent matter." Do bacteria count as intelligent? Insects? Rodents? Chimps? Where is the magic line between intelligent and non-intelligent drawn?

As for your question about why we exist, what makes you think there is a purpose to our existence? What purpose is there in our lives, why do we exist? Well what purpose is there in a dog's life? Why does a tree exist? Why does a car exist? I don't think there's any real difference in the substance of those questions, and I don't think there's really an answer.
 
So my question is, if I died right now and it turned out that my belief was wrong and yours (assuming you believe in god/s) was right, what would happen to me? I've seen a fair number of posts recently saying that all unbelievers will automatically go to hell, and I'm curious to see if that a well held position.

Whether you believe or not isn't important in my faith, though if you do not love the gods in life you have no reason to join them in death-- you would likely watch over your family for a time, as most dead men do, and then rejoin them again when you are ready. If your death is glorious enough to warrant the gods' attention even without ever having prayed to them, there will be a valkyrie waiting for you; whether you ride with her or not is your call. If you die forsaken, you're likely to become a restless spirit and wander the Earth until you find some sort of Hell to fall into or you finally dissipate into nothingness.

Of course, I believe in other gods-- beside my own-- and all their myriad Heavens and Hells, but I neither care to understand nor presume to judge how their realms are governed.
 
Sorry it appears I missed this part of your post.

Ultimately you are correct, we rely on faith in so many aspects of our lives, I don't think we even realize it. Even believing what scientists say is an act of faith.

No worries :) I have to disagree with you that believing what scientists say is an act of faith. Science has a method for verifying and demonstrating its findings. Science tells us that gravity exists, and we can actually demonstrate that it exists. That's not faith.

That being said, I think there is strong historical evidence for Jesus being dead, and then being alive again as was recorded by those witnesses. Further, I don't think the theory that the followers made it up holds much water.

Besides the Bible, what is this strong historical evidence? Witnesses are first of all notoriously inaccurate when it comes to even the most basic recollections, and I honestly do not trust the judgment of a handful of people from 2000 years ago that are completely ignorant by today's standards. Or at least I don't trust it enough to put absolute faith in what they wrote down, and that's before countless translations and edits over two millennia. Do you?

And whether or not the theory that they made it all up holds water in your eyes, the undeniable fact is that it is just as plausible as the theory that he rose from the dead. How could you possibly rule out the possibility that this very close and small group of disciples and followers made it all up? You may not believe it, but it's well within the realm of possibility, that's for sure. People do fabricate things when it suits them. Again, I'm not saying that that's the truth or that I even believe that, but to assert that a man dying and rising from the dead 3 days later is what happened while dismissing possibilities of fabrication, mistranslation, misdiagnosis of his condition, or other possibilities is close-minded and frankly illogical.
 
Whether you believe or not isn't important in my faith, though if you do not love the gods in life you have no reason to join them in death-- you would likely watch over your family for a time, as most dead men do, and then rejoin them again when you are ready. If your death is glorious enough to warrant the gods' attention even without ever having prayed to them, there will be a valkyrie waiting for you; whether you ride with her or not is your call. If you die forsaken, you're likely to become a restless spirit and wander the Earth until you find some sort of Hell to fall into or you finally dissipate into nothingness.

Of course, I believe in other gods-- beside my own-- and all their myriad Heavens and Hells, but I neither care to understand nor presume to judge how their realms are governed.

Asatru?

10 character rule
 
But the gist of what she says still stands: A god who sets up a spiritual system wherein a person is separated from god (hell - eternal punishment) due to unbelief, is inherently unjust. It matters not one tiny bit that you redefine the punishment and/or the mechanism by which it comes to pass. I also refuse to love a god of such caprice, whether he exists or not. Should such a god exist after all, he is evil.

When the choice rests on you, to force you into a place (heaven in this case) where you don't want to be, would be unjust.
 
So you're skeptical of explanations that require large leaps of blind faith, but you believe that a human died and came back to life because people wrote about it 2,000 years ago? Do you believe evolution is a hoax? Because I'm wondering when exactly you think "intelligence" arose from "non-intelligent matter." Do bacteria count as intelligent? Insects? Rodents? Chimps? Where is the magic line between intelligent and non-intelligent drawn?

I trust that the people who witnessed what they claimed to witness, that are telling the truth, and that what we have today is about 99% accurate to what they wrote down.

I also believe that the scientists believe they don't use blind faith, or any sort of faith at all, which leads me to be even more skeptical of their claims. Do I believe evolution a hoax? No. Do I believe it fits well with the world view they've created? Of course, which is why it's so popular.

What is intelligence? That's a good question. I was thinking about human intellect, but I think that the DNA system, which all of life depends would also indicate intelligence. And ultimately it's not that difficult to prove, it's just never happened, and goes against every thing we observe about life. Living matter coming from non-living matter. Intelligence from non-intellegence.

As for your question about why we exist, what makes you think there is a purpose to our existence? What purpose is there in our lives, why do we exist? Well what purpose is there in a dog's life? Why does a tree exist? Why does a car exist? I don't think there's any real difference in the substance of those questions, and I don't think there's really an answer.

Let me put it this way. Do you think that you have a purpose in your life? Is your life meaningless?

Even the most ardent atheists usually say they don't live a meaningless life, so if that is the case, then how is it that our planet or the existence of the whole universe could be less than we are? That is with no purpose?

Seems to me that simply because of the fact that we can ascribe and sense purpose, means that it exists.
 
When the choice rests on you, to force you into a place (heaven in this case) where you don't want to be, would be unjust.

You are correct... but all that means is that the injustice is inescapable (within such a spiritual system). It merely shows what an absolute mess such a system would constitute. Such a notion doesn't "fix" what is wrong.
 
No worries :) I have to disagree with you that believing what scientists say is an act of faith. Science has a method for verifying and demonstrating its findings. Science tells us that gravity exists, and we can actually demonstrate that it exists. That's not faith.

There are an innumerable number of things that we accept on faith without any sort of verification at all. For example, what is the speed of light? Have you tested it? No... you're simply accepting what others claim it is. How about the age of certain rocks? What about DNA? Have you seen DNA? Now, I'm not saying they are wrong, I'm simply pointing out how we use faith everyday. It's not called faith because that has a negative connotation in todays world. But, trusting without verification is no different than faith.



Besides the Bible, what is this strong historical evidence? Witnesses are first of all notoriously inaccurate when it comes to even the most basic recollections, and I honestly do not trust the judgment of a handful of people from 2000 years ago that are completely ignorant by today's standards. Or at least I don't trust it enough to put absolute faith in what they wrote down, and that's before countless translations and edits over two millennia. Do you?

The bible is the primary source, as a collection of writings from different authors. Which have more than a few interesting tid bits of information. Such as the fact that 500 witnesses saw the events, and it wasn't some arbitrary recollection of events, it was one primary event (the resurrection) which is also what they based their lives on, and many of them died as a result of their holding to their testimony. So, to put it in our context, if you had a beautiful baby girl who became the love of your life, but after 40 days she died... would you remember that event 20 years later? I think you would.

As to "countless translation and edits" I'm not sure what you are referring to? The copies we have are in the original languages, and they are not more than 100 years after they were written, and in one case 50 years. Which for ancient documents is quite remarkable. You are correct, that there were some later copies that were edited, and how do we know that? Because we have the older copies that weren't edited.


And whether or not the theory that they made it all up holds water in your eyes, the undeniable fact is that it is just as plausible as the theory that he rose from the dead. How could you possibly rule out the possibility that this very close and small group of disciples and followers made it all up? You may not believe it, but it's well within the realm of possibility, that's for sure. People do fabricate things when it suits them. Again, I'm not saying that that's the truth or that I even believe that, but to assert that a man dying and rising from the dead 3 days later is what happened while dismissing possibilities of fabrication, mistranslation, misdiagnosis of his condition, or other possibilities is close-minded and frankly illogical.

I agree that anything is plausible, and the question is just how plausible each theory is?

The problem with all the "they just made it up" theories, is that Jesus had enemies, namely the Jewish leadership at the time. And had it been a situation where they just made it up, these enemies would have laughed them out of existence after producing his body.

The other problem is a logical one. The contention or theory rests on a premise that a group of people lied, while preaching that telling the truth is a virtue. So, the contention is that the very core of their message is not honesty but deception. And then for what purpose? For the first 300 years of their existence they were persecuted and killed. To be a christian didn't mean wealth and prosperity, but persecution and poverty.

One of the evidences for this is a non-biblical reference to "christians" where they were blamed for a fire that started in a city (which I don't recall).

So which is more plausible is the question?
 
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You are correct... but all that means is that the injustice is inescapable (within such a spiritual system). It merely shows what an absolute mess such a system would constitute. Such a notion doesn't "fix" what is wrong.

What is the elephant in the room?

Whose justice are you referring to?

For example, if the Creator of all, supplied all the power and energy necessary for you to live. What right do you have to say what is Just or not? What is the basis of your made up justice? Since you've not contributed anything to your own existence? You haven't created the sun, or gravity or the Earth or an air supply or food supply. Actually nothing at all. Yet you live and use all these things for free and now claim to have formulated a justice system whereby you are judging the creator to be unjust, by your made up system.

What if the creator had a greater goal in mind. What if he wanted to share the love and life that he experiences with his creation. There are two ways to do this, but really there's only one way. He could force everyone to love him and follow him by creating robotic creatures. Of course this wouldn't be very satisfactory in the relationship sense. So, his only choice is to give a "moral free will" to his creation, so that they can choose to love him if they want. Because it's only this type of love that has any real meaning. But, as you can see, the downside of allowing a free will, means that some will choose not to love or follow him. And so we're back to your question, is that downside worth it? Evidently it is, since it is the only way to achieve or share this sort of love in his creation.

And while it's a downside from God's perspective, they used their freedom to choose "not-God" and so they get exactly what they wanted. Not God equals not heaven.
 
What is the elephant in the room?

Whose justice are you referring to?

For example, if the Creator of all, supplied all the power and energy necessary for you to live. What right do you have to say what is Just or not? What is the basis of your made up justice? Since you've not contributed anything to your own existence? You haven't created the sun, or gravity or the Earth or an air supply or food supply. Actually nothing at all. Yet you live and use all these things for free and now claim to have formulated a justice system whereby you are judging the creator to be unjust, by your made up system.

What if the creator had a greater goal in mind. What if he wanted to share the love and life that he experiences with his creation. There are two ways to do this, but really there's only one way. He could force everyone to love him and follow him by creating robotic creatures. Of course this wouldn't be very satisfactory in the relationship sense. So, his only choice is to give a "moral free will" to his creation, so that they can choose to love him if they want. Because it's only this type of love that has any real meaning. But, as you can see, the downside of allowing a free will, means that some will choose not to love or follow him. And so we're back to your question, is that downside worth it? Evidently it is, since it is the only way to achieve or share this sort of love in his creation.

And while it's a downside from God's perspective, they used their freedom to choose "not-God" and so they get exactly what they wanted. Not God equals not heaven.

I should accept even less the notion of justice attributed to a god, without proof, than I should accept the god itself. So unless you have proof of a god, and further proof of what that god thinks justice is, then your notions of justice are as made up as my own. You garner zero authority to claim to know what justice is by coming at the argument on the basis of faith. So you are in a catch 22: You must prove your god in order to prove your notion of justice, but you are ultimately trying to claim that your god says proof is not required for this process to be just. Quite a conundrum, to be sure. That is the main thing wrong with your approach.

There are several other things, however.

I would choose to love him if he had given me proof of his existence. I do choose to detest the notion of a god which would require belief without proof. So you are right, I choose to hate such a god and want nothing to do with him. But you performing mental backflips to say that I am getting what I want, and then extending to call it justice, does not make it so. It does not logically follow.

Who am I? Supposedly I am a rational being, and not a robot. Therefore, I ought to be able to see what justice is not, and then determine whether any proposed god should be rejected as capricious. I have done so regarding gods which require belief without proof, such as the one you propose.

If I am not a rational being capable of such discernment, then god is in even worse trouble: He has given me even less basis on which to discern the true god!! He stands condemned of even greater injustice. Would you like to try again? You just keep making things worse for god. Maybe the devil (the accuser) is right, after all. Maybe the devil saw the injustice, and tried to point it out. Maybe he fought god for his cruelty. Maybe god felt guilty after that and gave his only begotten son to die to try and make things right. Maybe god isn't rational, and maybe he doesn't tell the truth all the time. If he is capable of this creation, then he is certainly capable of fooling you, insane as he may be!!

I mean, if human plausible rationality is not to play a role, then we can't know what the real story is because we are assuming our incapability to think about things. But my response to that would be to believe even fewer things, not to believe even more stuff. No one should defer to what you imagine justice to be simply because you challenge their ability to determine what it is on their own.
 
I trust that the people who witnessed what they claimed to witness, that are telling the truth, and that what we have today is about 99% accurate to what they wrote down.

I also believe that the scientists believe they don't use blind faith, or any sort of faith at all, which leads me to be even more skeptical of their claims. Do I believe evolution a hoax? No. Do I believe it fits well with the world view they've created? Of course, which is why it's so popular.

What is intelligence? That's a good question. I was thinking about human intellect, but I think that the DNA system, which all of life depends would also indicate intelligence. And ultimately it's not that difficult to prove, it's just never happened, and goes against every thing we observe about life. Living matter coming from non-living matter. Intelligence from non-intellegence.

And your trust in these people is based on what exactly? If I told you that my dog died and came back to life, and then I wrote about it and had you read what I wrote, would you believe it?

Can I ask what specifically about not having faith causes you to be even more skeptical of scientists? I don't really see the connection there.

As for the intelligence thing, I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue. What isn't difficult to prove, that goes against everything we observe about life?

Let me put it this way. Do you think that you have a purpose in your life? Is your life meaningless?

Even the most ardent atheists usually say they don't live a meaningless life, so if that is the case, then how is it that our planet or the existence of the whole universe could be less than we are? That is with no purpose?

Seems to me that simply because of the fact that we can ascribe and sense purpose, means that it exists.

The terms "meaning" and "purpose" are not interchangeable, first of all. So I would answer your question by saying that I think my life is very meaningful but I do not think it has a purpose. I'm very grateful to be alive and I think I can derive a lot of personal meaning from my life experiences while I'm alive, but I certainly do not think I was created for some specific "purpose" by a god or spiritual being. And it is FAR from a fact that there is some sort of grand, higher purpose to our universe and existence. I understand that it is comforting for people to believe that there is some greater purpose to their life, but there is no actual evidence beyond people's emotional interpretation of our existence to support that assertion. I'd like the reassurance of that belief as well, but logic doesn't allow me to believe that genuinely.
 
There are an innumerable number of things that we accept on faith without any sort of verification at all. For example, what is the speed of light? Have you tested it? No... you're simply accepting what others claim it is. How about the age of certain rocks? What about DNA? Have you seen DNA? Now, I'm not saying they are wrong, I'm simply pointing out how we use faith everyday. It's not called faith because that has a negative connotation in todays world. But, trusting without verification is no different than faith.

No, sorry. Faith means believing in something without evidence. A scientist can explain the process by which the speed of light is measured. That is not faith. I'm not accepting what others "claim" it is, I'm accepting what others have DEMONSTRATED that it is through measurements, observations, and mathematics. Same goes for dating rocks (we can measure the half-life of certain isotopes) and DNA. It's like saying that I have "faith" in the Grimm fairy tales really happened. There's no evidence but I have faith - the texts themselves are the evidence!

The bible is the primary source, as a collection of writings from different authors. Which have more than a few interesting tid bits of information. Such as the fact that 500 witnesses saw the events, and it wasn't some arbitrary recollection of events, it was one primary event (the resurrection) which is also what they based their lives on, and many of them died as a result of their holding to their testimony. So, to put it in our context, if you had a beautiful baby girl who became the love of your life, but after 40 days she died... would you remember that event 20 years later? I think you would.

As to "countless translation and edits" I'm not sure what you are referring to? The copies we have are in the original languages, and they are not more than 100 years after they were written, and in one case 50 years. Which for ancient documents is quite remarkable. You are correct, that there were some later copies that were edited, and how do we know that? Because we have the older copies that weren't edited.

Fair enough about the translations, but your first point is just illogical. Basically again what you're saying is that the Bible's accuracy should not be questioned because the Bible is its own evidence. That's my entire point, and you concede that the Bible is the primary source. This is THE religious book for Christians, so of course it's going to support their beliefs. So when I ask where's the other evidence that this happened besides this religious document, you can't just say "there were over 500 witnesses - as documented by the Bible." OBVIOUSLY the Bible supports its own doctrine and history, that's why I'm curious what other sources support this resurrection claim. I don't believe in the great flood and Noah's Ark because there's no evidence for it outside of the Bible, and the same goes for Jesus' resurrection. Do you think that Noah's Ark was real?

I agree that anything is plausible, and the question is just how plausible each theory is?

The problem with all the "they just made it up" theories, is that Jesus had enemies, namely the Jewish leadership at the time. And had it been a situation where they just made it up, these enemies would have laughed them out of existence after producing his body.

The other problem is a logical one. The contention or theory rests on a premise that a group of people lied, while preaching that telling the truth is a virtue. So, the contention is that the very core of their message is not honesty but deception. And then for what purpose? For the first 300 years of their existence they were persecuted and killed. To be a christian didn't mean wealth and prosperity, but persecution and poverty.

One of the evidences for this is a non-biblical reference to "christians" where they were blamed for a fire that started in a city (which I don't recall).

So which is more plausible is the question?

You have a good point with the implausibility of them making it all up. I personally think the most plausible explanation is that it was a cult, and we have plentiful examples of the suffering, persecution, and self-sacrifice of cult members. I think that's an even more plausible explanation than the religious explanation of people dying and coming back to life, feeding thousands of people with very little, limited food, etc.
 
I should accept even less the notion of justice attributed to a god, without proof, than I should accept the god itself. So unless you have proof of a god, and further proof of what that god thinks justice is, then your notions of justice are as made up as my own. You garner zero authority to claim to know what justice is by coming at the argument on the basis of faith. So you are in a catch 22: You must prove your god in order to prove your notion of justice, but you are ultimately trying to claim that your god says proof is not required for this process to be just. Quite a conundrum, to be sure. That is the main thing wrong with your approach.

There are several other things, however.

I would choose to love him if he had given me proof of his existence. I do choose to detest the notion of a god which would require belief without proof. So you are right, I choose to hate such a god and want nothing to do with him. But you performing mental backflips to say that I am getting what I want, and then extending to call it justice, does not make it so. It does not logically follow.

Who am I? Supposedly I am a rational being, and not a robot. Therefore, I ought to be able to see what justice is not, and then determine whether any proposed god should be rejected as capricious. I have done so regarding gods which require belief without proof, such as the one you propose.

If I am not a rational being capable of such discernment, then god is in even worse trouble: He has given me even less basis on which to discern the true god!! He stands condemned of even greater injustice. Would you like to try again? You just keep making things worse for god. Maybe the devil (the accuser) is right, after all. Maybe the devil saw the injustice, and tried to point it out. Maybe he fought god for his cruelty. Maybe god felt guilty after that and gave his only begotten son to die to try and make things right. Maybe god isn't rational, and maybe he doesn't tell the truth all the time. If he is capable of this creation, then he is certainly capable of fooling you, insane as he may be!!

I mean, if human plausible rationality is not to play a role, then we can't know what the real story is because we are assuming our incapability to think about things. But my response to that would be to believe even fewer things, not to believe even more stuff. No one should defer to what you imagine justice to be simply because you challenge their ability to determine what it is on their own.



Suffice it to say that your argument is basically that you feel that God is hidden from you, therefore you feel it's unjust for him to judge anyone in your position.

First, there is plenty of proof for the existence of God, just ask many of the skeptics who have gone before you. Such as CS Lewis, Antony flew, or Lee Stroble. The idea that there's "NO" proof at all, is an extreme overstatement. Fact is what you're saying is that it's not the type of proof *you* want. Oh well. It never is.

Second, do you really think that the creator is unfair to give life for free, and not expect something in return?
 
And your trust in these people is based on what exactly? If I told you that my dog died and came back to life, and then I wrote about it and had you read what I wrote, would you believe it?

Can I ask what specifically about not having faith causes you to be even more skeptical of scientists? I don't really see the connection there.

As for the intelligence thing, I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue. What isn't difficult to prove, that goes against everything we observe about life?



The terms "meaning" and "purpose" are not interchangeable, first of all. So I would answer your question by saying that I think my life is very meaningful but I do not think it has a purpose. I'm very grateful to be alive and I think I can derive a lot of personal meaning from my life experiences while I'm alive, but I certainly do not think I was created for some specific "purpose" by a god or spiritual being. And it is FAR from a fact that there is some sort of grand, higher purpose to our universe and existence. I understand that it is comforting for people to believe that there is some greater purpose to their life, but there is no actual evidence beyond people's emotional interpretation of our existence to support that assertion. I'd like the reassurance of that belief as well, but logic doesn't allow me to believe that genuinely.

My trust in the people who claimed to witness the resurrection is based on all the facts surrounding the event, that have a ring of truth to them. Peter denied christ when pressed. They were all depressed, hiding in a room after he died. They didn't believe at first (even Thomas said he wouldn't believe). And as a result of their seeing the risen Christ, their lives were changed. And with such life changing events, who wouldn't want to share it and write it down?
But, not just that, but the teachings of Christ are so opposite the way the world thinks. The first will be last, the last will be first. And when applied to one's life, they work. So, in a nut shell, I guess I'm saying that my trust is based on both the facts and my personal experience.

If you claimed your dog came back to life, I don't think I'd believe you. Now, if you had 500 witnesses to your dog being dead for three days, and then came back to life, that would be different.

As far as meaning and purpose, it seems to me that they are connected. But, for the sake of argument, I will accept your premise. You don't think there's any "grand" purpose. So in essence what you are saying is that you are able to create meaning where the universe has none in and of it self?

If that is correct, isn't a bit illogical to assume that you have meaning but the universe which is greater than you, has none?

I'm skeptical of scientists that don't understand how their own world views effect their conclusions. Take Stephen Hawking's statement that God is unnecessary. Here is place where science isn't speaking, but his faith is speaking. Even science admits it can't detect God, so it can't say one way or another what God is doing or not. But, the point is that faith is masquerading as science at that point, because Stephen Hawking doesn't seem to realize the net effect his world view has on his conclusions. And if someone so smart can't see the most basic truths of how one's world view effects one's conclusions, I don't trust them.

Proving that intelligence can come from non-intelligent sources. If it actually happened, then it should be easy to demonstrate, but the fact is that it can't be demonstrated because it hasn't happened in reality.
 
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No, sorry. Faith means believing in something without evidence. A scientist can explain the process by which the speed of light is measured. That is not faith. I'm not accepting what others "claim" it is, I'm accepting what others have DEMONSTRATED that it is through measurements, observations, and mathematics. Same goes for dating rocks (we can measure the half-life of certain isotopes) and DNA. It's like saying that I have "faith" in the Grimm fairy tales really happened. There's no evidence but I have faith - the texts themselves are the evidence!

Let's look at the speed of light. How has a scientist demonstrated to *you* personally how it was measured? If he hasn't done that, then you are taking what he states, on the basis of faith. You believe him. Faith simply put is believing.

I believe the people when they claim to witness the resurrected christ. I also believe that scientists can measure the speed of light. Both are examples of faith.

Blind faith is to believe in something without evidence.



Fair enough about the translations, but your first point is just illogical. Basically again what you're saying is that the Bible's accuracy should not be questioned because the Bible is its own evidence. That's my entire point, and you concede that the Bible is the primary source. This is THE religious book for Christians, so of course it's going to support their beliefs. So when I ask where's the other evidence that this happened besides this religious document, you can't just say "there were over 500 witnesses - as documented by the Bible." OBVIOUSLY the Bible supports its own doctrine and history, that's why I'm curious what other sources support this resurrection claim. I don't believe in the great flood and Noah's Ark because there's no evidence for it outside of the Bible, and the same goes for Jesus' resurrection. Do you think that Noah's Ark was real?

The Bible isn't one book. It's a collection of books and letters. So, to claim that "this religious book..." states this or that is circular reasoning, is not quite accurate, because different people at different times wrote the letters and books that were collected into what we call the Bible today.

As for evidence outside the Bible for the resurrection, I don't know of any specific references, however the accuracy of the biblical documents has been demonstrated through other historical findings.
 
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