Op Ed Regarding a Pastor's thoughts on Gay Marriage

I saw this posted by a friend of mine on their Facebook. Now, I've stated on these forums I'm not an incredibly religious person but I am always interested to see the various ways religious people of all degrees approach issues. I must say, this is a relatively unique view point as far as actually articulating it that I've heard a person make and I was wondering what some of the population of DP's view on the op ed is:

Link is here

The debate over gay marriage, highlighted by President Obama’s endorsement this week, makes me sad. Extremists on both sides of the argument are either dancing for joy or arming for battle. Politicians, rather than focusing on the economy, foreign relations or American security, are using gay marriage to invigorate their base and to raise campaign funds. Pastors, rather than encouraging people to love God with all their heart, mind and strength and to love their neighbor as themselves, are self-righteously pontificating on things they know very little about. It is amazing that an issue that impacts a small percentage of the population has become such an important dividing line in American culture. (According to anarticle in the Huffington Post, Gary Gates, demographer-in-residence at the Williams Institute on Sexual Orientation Law and Public Policy at UCLA, estimates that 1.7% of US adults self-identify as gay or lesbian.)

I have been wrestling with the biblical principles surrounding gay marriage. Three major tenets guide my understanding:

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Zyphlin said:

I saw this posted by a friend of mine on their Facebook. Now, I've stated on these forums I'm not an incredibly religious person but I am always interested to see the various ways religious people of all degrees approach issues. I must say, this is a relatively unique view point as far as actually articulating it that I've heard a person make and I was wondering what some of the population of DP's view on the op ed is:

Link is here

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Reading this makes me sad. I didn't click on the link and read only the text you posted; that was enough.

I am not hearing anything at all about SSM from the pulpit. I never have. Nobody I know well, straights or gays, is talking much about this. I know we're all reading about it; I'm just saying that in my real life, I'm not seeing or hearing it.

I do think that controversy is being ginned up, but based on my own experience, I don't think it's the churches or synagogues. I think it's being ginned up by cynical politicians and their media mouthpieces hoping to create a wedge issue that scores. "Resonates."

I agree in that it's a non-issue being churned into the ultimate issue of all time in the history of ever, but, I'm also only really seeing it on the internet, and hearing about it on the radio. Only two friends I know ever speak of it. I stopped attending church long before this became an issue, and don't intend on attending unless it's a part of giving service to the Lord and God, so I'm not sure what priests, pastors, and presbyters are saying. I only know that I will neither support, or oppose it.

If you think it's a non-issue you're kind of doing yourself a disservice not reading the story and taking the first part as all of it. The pastor's stance is somewhat similar....in the grand scope of things the amount of legalized things that are far more damaging to marriage in the eyes of god is an exhausted list and all the focus on gay marriage is questionable

nota bene said:

Reading this makes me sad. I didn't click on the link and read only the text you posted; that was enough.

I am not hearing anything at all about SSM from the pulpit. I never have. Nobody I know well, straights or gays, is talking much about this. I know we're all reading about it; I'm just saying that in my real life, I'm not seeing or hearing it.

I do think that controversy is being ginned up, but based on my own experience, I don't think it's the churches or synagogues. I think it's being ginned up by cynical politicians and their media mouthpieces hoping to create a wedge issue that scores. "Resonates."

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I'd agree with some of that, but if the average person could think for him/herself such things wouldn't be wedge issues to begin with.

Honestly, I think God is more pissed off with the tens of millions of Americans who get divorced every year, then the gay Americans who want to formalize their loving commitment.

Zyphlin said:

If you think it's a non-issue you're kind of doing yourself a disservice not reading the story and taking the first part as all of it.

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I did read it, and I don't disagree with him.

The pastor's stance is somewhat similar....in the grand scope of things the amount of legalized things that are far more damaging to marriage in the eyes of god is an exhausted list and all the focus on gay marriage is questionable

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That's because (my opinion) that gay marriage is an entirely political deflection from the difficult issues and problems we're facing as a nation. Most people couldn't tell you what the national debt is, or even have an opinion on how to fix it, but everyone has been made blatantly aware of gay marriage.

Lokiate said:

I did read it, and I don't disagree with him.

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Yep, my bad. Looking back over I see I read your post wrong and got it a bit confused with Nota's above you.

nota bene said:

Reading this makes me sad. I didn't click on the link and read only the text you posted; that was enough.

I am not hearing anything at all about SSM from the pulpit. I never have. Nobody I know well, straights or gays, is talking much about this. I know we're all reading about it; I'm just saying that in my real life, I'm not seeing or hearing it.

I do think that controversy is being ginned up, but based on my own experience, I don't think it's the churches or synagogues. I think it's being ginned up by cynical politicians and their media mouthpieces hoping to create a wedge issue that scores. "Resonates."

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This is the Religious Discussions Forum, not the US Politics Forum. Let us keep the discussion to the OP.

Aside from steering the discussion immediately to the politics of the situation, you also claim to not hearing about SSM from the pulpit. You say this just after saying you didn't read the link. *bonk*

Zyphlin said:

I saw this posted by a friend of mine on their Facebook. Now, I've stated on these forums I'm not an incredibly religious person but I am always interested to see the various ways religious people of all degrees approach issues. I must say, this is a relatively unique view point as far as actually articulating it that I've heard a person make and I was wondering what some of the population of DP's view on the op ed is:

Link is here

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I disagree with him on several fronts:

1. Although he did not say that being homosexual is sinning, he does imply it by being very loose with his words: "Are gays and lesbians sinners? Of course they are.". The real scoop is that being homosexual and engaging in sexual activities is not sinning, as long as it is for love and not for lust. Anal sex is bad.
2. Furthermore, he claims the Bible, Old and New Testaments, specify that a marriage is only between a man and a woman, thinking that this applies to a physical marriage. The real scoop is that the Old and New Testaments are both talking about a spiritual marriage.

reefedjib said:

I disagree with him on several fronts:

1. Although he did not say that being homosexual is sinning, he does imply it by being very loose with his words: "Are gays and lesbians sinners? Of course they are.". The real scoop is that being homosexual and engaging in sexual activities is not sinning, as long as it is for love and not for lust. Anal sex is bad.
2. Furthermore, he claims the Bible, Old and New Testaments, specify that a marriage is only between a man and a woman, thinking that this applies to a physical marriage. The real scoop is that the Old and New Testaments are both talking about a spiritual marriage.

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Eh, to be perfectly frank, I don't think your interpritation of what the Old and New testimants are "talking about" is any more legitimate or correct than his. I find anyone trying to proclaim with certainty or absolutism what the meaning, intent, or truth behind much of the Bible as somewhat laughable. Speak to what you believe it means, or what it means to you, and urge others to believe the same way? Fine. But try and tell me "What it's talking about" as if you've been gifted with divine knowledge of the "truth" of the bible and I'm unlikely to take it seriously. There is enough conflicting theological belief, reasoning, theories, and views regarding homosexuality and provided scritpure ot back it up that I'd be hard pressed to say unequiviocably that either side is flat out "Wrong" but rather I may simple disagree with their interpritation.

Zyphlin said:

I was wondering what some of the population of DP's view on the op ed is:

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I disagree with him on pretty much everything other than the conclusion.

reefedjib said:

This is the Religious Discussions Forum, not the US Politics Forum. Let us keep the discussion to the OP.

Aside from steering the discussion immediately to the politics of the situation, you also claim to not hearing about SSM from the pulpit. You say this just after saying you didn't read the link. *bonk*

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The politics of this are what matter (unless, of course, you don't think that SSM and the President's announcement last week have anything to do with politics :roll: ), and the OP did solicit opinions.

I'm sorry if you don't appreciate mine. I have now read the link and happen to generally agree with what Geoff Surratt said. However, he is NOT a minister (although he has been a part of Saddleback, a wonderful church that my BFF was active in while she was in Newport Beach), and what he says is NOT coming from a pulpit.

I will reiterate: Not once in my life have I heard a syllable about homosexuality from the pulpit. I do believe that much of the current controversy has been ginned up by the MSM and those with a political agenda. My opinion, and I am entitled to it. What I wanted to avoid in my post above was contributing to yet another interminable thread on the merits of SSM, and no matter how a thread begins, that's what every one devolves into.


But I do fundamentally disagree with the either/or suggested in Surratt's piece and strongly also with his statement that "The issue of gay marriage makes me sad because it has become the centerpiece topic of conversation, the litmus test of who we’ll associate with." This issue is NOT necessarily a litmus test for me, and it emphatically does not determine with whom I associate.

Zyphlin said:

Yep, my bad. Looking back over I see I read your post wrong and got it a bit confused with Nota's above you.

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It happens.

HonestJoe said:

I disagree with him on pretty much everything other than the conclusion.

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Agreed. The idea that life isn't about living, but about subjecting oneself to the will of a god is pretty extreme even for Christians. Not to mention how it disagrees with almost every other religion besides Islam. Definitely not a mainstream enough idea to affect any kind of policy. This guy also said that people of different religions shouldn't marry. I'm not seeing why his opinion is worth anything, really. Other than at least the humility not to think that everyone ought to think exactly the same way he does.

Zyphlin said:

Eh, to be perfectly frank, I don't think your interpritation of what the Old and New testimants are "talking about" is any more legitimate or correct than his. I find anyone trying to proclaim with certainty or absolutism what the meaning, intent, or truth behind much of the Bible as somewhat laughable. Speak to what you believe it means, or what it means to you, and urge others to believe the same way? Fine. But try and tell me "What it's talking about" as if you've been gifted with divine knowledge of the "truth" of the bible and I'm unlikely to take it seriously. There is enough conflicting theological belief, reasoning, theories, and views regarding homosexuality and provided scritpure ot back it up that I'd be hard pressed to say unequiviocably that either side is flat out "Wrong" but rather I may simple disagree with their interpritation.

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That's your choice. Do you really think the 5th commandment is talking about your genetic mother and father? Or do you think it is talking about the Father and the Divine Mother?

All statements about marriage, in the Bible, are about spiritual marriage, between Christ and Mary, Adam and Eve, the Father and the Divine Mother - between the masculine and feminine genders of your soul.

God made each of us, the current incarnations we identify with, either a man or a woman and either gay or straight. Sexual orientation is God given. From incarnation to incarnation, we have been all combinations and so we are truly bigender and biosexual.

Psalm 103 said:

15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.

16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

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everlasting to everlasting is reference to reincarnation...

Matthew 17:11-13 said:

Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

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As is John the Baptist was Elijah.

Eh it varies. Clearly many pastors rarely ever bring it up, some are supporting of it even, but there are also many, especially in the south like that NC douche who said to beat up "gay acting" 5 year olds, who seem obsessed with it. They blow it out of proportion and scare their flocks into the voting booth. Part of it being such an issue is legitimate however, in that the right to SSM doesn't exist so it will be fought for. I've certainly heard quite a lot on homosexuality in church, none of it very accepting, but I have to admit that was almost 10 years ago.

Keep in mind if you live in a city, where gay people have greater visibility, that's not going to be similar to the small towns that are scattered throughout the country. I think if you were to visit churches out there, you quickly notice a different interpretation of God's message. I could be wrong however, cause it's been a while like i said. Ultimately i think you're right though that aside from the internet, most people are indifferent about it or quietly support or oppose, as with most things.

reefedjib said:

Psalm 103 said:

15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.
17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

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everlasting to everlasting is reference to reincarnation...

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and for that matter (sic), his righteousness unto children's children is a recursive description of how the Father relegates his love down through the emanations of an incarnation, a person, expressed through the assistance of the angels present at each level.

Going down...

• Father/Mother
• Adam/Eve
• Soul (Christ/Mary)
• Self Identity (gender/sexual orientation) <Sahasrara Chakra>
• Mind (conscious/unconscious) <Ajna Chakra>
• Voice (words/intonation) <Vishuddha Chakra>
• Heart (giving/receiving) <Anahata Chakra>
• Breathe (inhale/exhale) <Manipura Chakra>
• Emotions (emote/urge) <Swadhisthana Chakra>
• Body (action/experience) <Muladhara Chakra>

but, working your way back up, you have to find Christ and Mary in your heart. This means that through the heart, the balance point between the mental/spiritual chakras and the physical chakras, you can jump to your soul to access your other chakras. Hinduism, through the Upanishads, tells us to find God in your heart, as well.

You can access your heart by voicing the invitation to Christ and Mary. I like to repeat commitments three times with an Amen - psycho-spiritual magic. Before the invitation, I would strongly recommend a verbal commitment to always be truthful and always be non-harmful. It establishes the best foundation. The invitation of Christ and Mary into your heart is done utilizing the adjacent spiritual chakra, Voice. It also helps to use your adjacent physical chakra, and controlling your breathing (the foot of the path in Eastern religions). After you invite Christ and Mary into your heart, make sure to close your eyes, relax, empty your mind of thought, and then say "Hi Christ" and listen and feel. Then say "Hi Mary" and listen and feel.

Really Smile :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

reefedjib said:

1. Self Identity (gender/sexual orientation) <Sahasrara Chakra>
2. Mind (conscious/unconscious) <Ajna Chakra>
3. Voice (words/intonation) <Vishuddha Chakra>
4. Heart (giving/receiving) <Anahata Chakra>
5. Breathe (inhale/exhale) <Manipura Chakra>
6. Emotions (emote/urge) <Swadhisthana Chakra>
7. Body (action/experience) <Muladhara Chakra>

...the heart, the balance point between the mental/spiritual chakras and the physical chakras, you can jump to your soul to access your other chakras.

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Aikido is the study of mind/body integration. Normally the mind is in the sixth chakra, Mind. The trick is to put your physical awareness into the second chakra, your emotional center or your Ki Center, in Aikido. This is very interesting as the 2nd chakra is the middle chakra of the physical emanations, while the 6th chakra is the middle chakra of the mental emanations. Your physical awareness is that portion of the mind that deals with things physical, so there must be a corresponding mental body, that portion of the body that deals with things mental.

Through the principle of reflectivity, since you put your physical mind into the middle of the physical chakras, you must put your mental body into the middle mental chakra, no? In fact it is your Homunculus that you can find in your Mind. There are facets of this, such as the Temple and the place to install commitments. It also holds your Ego.

So we each have 3 mental chakras and 3 physical chakras, and where they meet is the Heart Chakra, the seat of Divine Fire. The 3 physical chakras are Earth (Muladhara), Water (Swadhisthana), and Air (Manipura) - the three forms of matter. Therefore, the 3 mental chakras must be the 3 forms of mentalism - Solid (Self), Liquid (Mind) and Gaseous (Voice).

In fact, the physical chakras are from the Divine Mother, while the mental chakras are from the Father. Where they meet is the Son (Christ/Mary or the Soul). The Trinity within us all.

Thunder said:

Honestly, I think God is more pissed off with the tens of millions of Americans who get divorced every year

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Could not agree more. No fault divorce is the real problem when it comes to marriage in the U.S.

Paschendale said:

This guy also said that people of different religions shouldn't marry.

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The "unequally yoked" passage is a subject of wide ranging thought amongst Christians. I think it is reasonable to believe that members of non-Abrahamic religions ought not be married to members of Abrahamic religions since the religions are so vastly different. Amongst Abrahamic religions I think the potential for strife in the marriage is high, as Jews, Christians and Muslims are too widely divergent in how they perceive God's will. I can't speak for Muslims or Jews, but I think that Christians in general are fine to marry each other so long as a few key dogmatic points are agreed on, like Christ's divine birth, death and resurrection. There are other important points that could cause strife within a marriage, so care needs to be taken to sort all that out before marriage.

All of the above presumes that the two marriage candidates actually take their religion seriously. If they don't, then I guess it doesn't really matter who you marry.

Thunder said:

Honestly, I think God is more pissed off with the tens of millions of Americans who get divorced every year, then the gay Americans who want to formalize their loving commitment.

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I personally have serious doubts that God cares either way. It's humans who have a problem just letting things be, and living/letting live.

ChuckBerry said:

The "unequally yoked" passage is a subject of wide ranging thought amongst Christians. I think it is reasonable to believe that members of non-Abrahamic religions ought not be married to members of Abrahamic religions since the religions are so vastly different. Amongst Abrahamic religions I think the potential for strife in the marriage is high, as Jews, Christians and Muslims are too widely divergent in how they perceive God's will. I can't speak for Muslims or Jews, but I think that Christians in general are fine to marry each other so long as a few key dogmatic points are agreed on, like Christ's divine birth, death and resurrection. There are other important points that could cause strife within a marriage, so care needs to be taken to sort all that out before marriage.

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My parents are of different religions, and I have never seen it cause any problems. And they both take it somewhat seriously, though in ways that are atypical. I've never dated Jews, despite being raised as one. Which religion a person is has never mattered to me, only that they don't take it too seriously.

All of the above presumes that the two marriage candidates actually take their religion seriously. If they don't, then I guess it doesn't really matter who you marry.

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Yes, we do get along better in peace and harmony when people don't take religion seriously.