Problems in the Catholic Church

Wake said:

Just saw on the news that yet another Catholic priest in WI, an archbishop, has been accused of molestation, and is now "serving a year in prayer and penance." Why does this keep happening? Assuming celibacy is to blame, shouldn't Catholic priests and clergy be allowed to marry? It's as if every few weeks we hear stories of Catholic clergy molesting children and to be frank it's outrageous.

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I am getting so ****ing sick of these ignorant posts all over the forum when this has been explained countless amounts of times:

1. There is NO link between celibacy and pedophilia.
2. There are NO more pedophiles in the Catholic Church than in the general population.

The reason it appears that there are more Catholic pedophiles than in the general population is because 1) it's the Catholic Church not some small town 2) the cover-up made the pedophilia all the more scandalous.

ChuckBerry said:

...and this is statement is based on what, exactly? When do priests get "much more" alone time with a child?

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I went to Catholic School and priests certainly had more opportunities to be alone with children who were altar servers then teachers did.

Enola said:

What I wonder is...why is it always catholic priests and why, if they are so damn horny, they don't just go bang a chick. Why a boy child??? Don't they do background checks on before giving someone priesthood???

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It's not ALWAYS Catholic priests. It's that the Catholic Church is a bigger deal than the average small town where molestation happens and that the cover-up by the church made the pedophilia within it all the more scandalous and newsworthy.

And what is a background check going to do?

ThePlayDrive said:

It's not ALWAYS Catholic priests. It's that the Catholic Church is a bigger deal than the average small town where molestation happens and that the cover-up by the church made the pedophilia within it all the more scandalous and newsworthy.

And what is a background check going to do?

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I don't believe a background check would do anything to stop or prevent it. Though it may not always be Catholic priests, I think the Catholic Church fuels the fire to this problem rather than trying to prevent it.

The doctrine of celibate priests for one thing, does not make the individual less desirous for sex. Then the power of the priest over others lends to that an influence in a negative way

Also, to have a confessional where the priest is allowed to hear the very private sins of the individual adds a certain slavery to the priest as he knows so much about me.

In other words, in my opinion, no matter who becomes a priest in the Catholic Church, they will be up against these factors which will constantly prey upon them. The Catholic Church has provided a setting that creates such monsters. In my opinion.

Quantrill

ThePlayDrive said:

I am getting so ****ing sick of these ignorant posts all over the forum when this has been explained countless amounts of times:

1. There is NO link between celibacy and pedophilia.
2. There are NO more pedophiles in the Catholic Church than in the general population.

The reason it appears that there are more Catholic pedophiles than in the general population is because 1) it's the Catholic Church not some small town 2) the cover-up made the pedophilia all the more scandalous.

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Thank you. A fair assessment. However, I would encourage you to understand the genesis of the controversy, paying special attention to when it occurred. The pedophilia in most cases occurred in the 70's and early 80's, a time when pedophilia was not the hot button social issue that it is today. Not as much was understood about the psychological nature of the problem for the pedophiles nor the damage it inflicted on the minds of the children who were the victims. In fact, a board of Catholic laymen that issued a scathing report on the Church's misconduct cited "too much faith in psychiatrists" as one of the contributing factors to the abuse.

It was assumed that a priest could take counseling and then be free to continue his pastoral work. We now know that this isn't true, but it wasn't known then. But simply shuffling priests around to avoid scandal is inexcusable in itself, as is any attempt to squelch the protests of victims in any way.

Once a pedophile: always a pedophile.

It's not something that can be fixed.

ThePlayDrive said:

1. There is NO link between celibacy and pedophilia.
2. There are NO more pedophiles in the Catholic Church than in the general population.

3. The reason it appears that there are more Catholic pedophiles than in the general population is because 1) it's the Catholic Church not some small town 2) the cover-up made the pedophilia all the more scandalous.

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1. After reading up on it you seem to be right. Thanks; didn't know that.

2. That's not a comforting thought. :shock:

3. That makes sense.

Still, there should be stricter punishments/regulations to decrease the number of victims.

Wake said:

Just saw on the news that yet another Catholic priest in WI, an archbishop, has been accused of molestation, and is now "serving a year in prayer and penance." Why does this keep happening? Assuming celibacy is to blame, shouldn't Catholic priests and clergy be allowed to marry? It's as if every few weeks we hear stories of Catholic clergy molesting children and to be frank it's outrageous.

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I honestly don't think it's the celibacy issue at the real core of the problem. I suspect that a few people who go into the clergy have some serious personal issues, and they go into the clergy in a psychological attempt to try and avoid facing those issues. It's getting into the realm of human psychology, so may not be pertinent to the discussion you really wanted to have, but that's my take on the issue.

MaggieD said:

There is no small school of thought that the Catholic Church actually attracts pedophiles as priests.

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There's also no small school of thought that the Earth is only six thousand years old, or that 9/11 was an inside job, or any number of other absurdities with no basis in fact.

Wake said:

Just saw on the news that yet another Catholic priest in WI, an archbishop, has been accused of molestation, and is now "serving a year in prayer and penance." Why does this keep happening? Assuming celibacy is to blame, shouldn't Catholic priests and clergy be allowed to marry? It's as if every few weeks we hear stories of Catholic clergy molesting children and to be frank it's outrageous.

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It's not celibacy, as celibacy has been around for more than a thousand years with no problems until recently. The problem (and I will get all kinds of hate for this) is homosexuality. Homosexuals are banned from ordination, but that law has been ignored for decades. What has been the result? Young teenage boys get molested. It's not pedophilia, it's ephebophilia, and it's being committed by homosexual priests.

As for the bishops and others who do nothing about it, don't ask me. Frankly these people who commit these crimes and those who shelter them should be thrown in prison for years.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/se...was-homosexual-problem-not-pedophilia-vatican

ThePlayDrive said:

I am getting so ****ing sick of these ignorant posts all over the forum when this has been explained countless amounts of times:
1. There is NO link between celibacy and pedophilia.
2. There are NO more pedophiles in the Catholic Church than in the general population.
The reason it appears that there are more Catholic pedophiles than in the general population is because 1) it's the Catholic Church not some small town 2) the cover-up made the pedophilia all the more scandalous.

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`
I did my own study of this and found out a) there are twice as many child sex offenders in the baptist/evangelical minister ranks than catholic priests and b) used the John Jay Report for the basis of my study.
`

MaggieD said:

Oh, yes, I understand what communion is.

Christ invited me to join him at his communion table . . . not the Pope.

The Catholic Church is the only Christian religion that denies people communion. (Oh, and if you're Catholic? Had you taken communion at that Baptist Church? You would have committed a mortal sin. You'da had to be reeeel careful driving home.

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1 Corinthians 11: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself."

You ought to be thanking the priest. He did your mother a favor.

phattonez said:

1 Corinthians 11: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself."

You ought to be thanking the priest. He did your mother a favor.

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The fundamental thing is let man examine himself, not the pope or a priest. It's up to the individual to determine if they should take communion or not, not a priest acting as if they were God. One of the fundamental tenants of the New Covenant brought by Jesus was that individual people would be in fellowship with God, I think the Catholic church is wrong in how they appoint men to be mediators and judges for sin and even in some cases go beyond any authority man has to try and tell people what they need to do to be forgiven (confessionals and whatnot).

digsbe said:

The fundamental thing is let man examine himself, not the pope or a priest. It's up to the individual to determine if they should take communion or not, not a priest acting as if they were God.

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She obviously was ignorant of what she was doing, and it is the priest's job to protect the sacrament from profanation. Someone receiving Communion who does not accept that it is literally the body and blood of Christ would profane the sacrament and drink judgment on herself. I can only laud the priest's actions.

One of the fundamental tenants of the New Covenant brought by Jesus was that individual people would be in fellowship with God, I think the Catholic church is wrong in how they appoint men to be mediators and judges for sin and even in some cases go beyond any authority man has to try and tell people what they need to do to be forgiven (confessionals and whatnot).

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Priests act in persona Christi in the confessional. I recommend that you understand what the Church actually teaches regarding confession.

Confession | Catholic Answers

Paxaeon said:

`
I did my own study of this and found out a) there are twice as many child sex offenders in the baptist/evangelical minister ranks than catholic priests and b) used the John Jay Report for the basis of my study.
`

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Not to mention the deplorable rate of sexual misconduct in schools. That study found that as many as 4.5 million children experience sexual misconduct by a teacher between K and 12th grade.

All offenders of all creeds and professions should go to jail, but claims that Catholic sexual abuse is somehow unique or more common than in the general population is dubious at best.

lizzie said:

I honestly don't think it's the celibacy issue at the real core of the problem. I suspect that a few people who go into the clergy have some serious personal issues, and they go into the clergy in a psychological attempt to try and avoid facing those issues.

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This is a good point and I think it needs to be analyzed agains the broad socio economic trends that occurred in the US and the structure of the Catholic church. Sure, there have always been people with problems in the Catholic church- and also in every other group comprised of humans. But, secualrization led to the number and severity of problem people in the Catholic church to reach disasterous levels:

- American society starts to secularize in the 1960s. Catholic areas on the coasts secularize fast and early. In previous generations, priesthood was a socio economic advancement for many people. Also large catholic families tended to encourage one child to enter the religous life. This tended to supply a steady pool of stable individuals for seminaries. Secularization ended this. As secularization accelerated, recruits for the catholic priesthood decline in quantity and quality.

-Most of the abuse occurred in the 1980s. By now, there was a huge shortage of priests from the secularization of the 1960s. Bishops were under alot of pressure to keep anybody with a pulse- including people who had a variety of issues ranging from the predatory to just being wierd or plain old incompetent.

-Only priests can perform certain rituals in Catholcism. Thus, while other denominations may have been able move towards lay leadership, Catholic church needed priests, even if it meant accepting and retaining people with potential for big problems.

-Bishops are chosen from priests. As the quantity of priests declined, people are promoted to Bishop despite not having the leadership, managerial, or academic skills to handle an increasing number of problem employees. These problem employees ranged from sexual predators, to the theft prone, to the just plain wierd.

phattonez said:

1 Corinthians 11: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself."

You ought to be thanking the priest. He did your mother a favor.

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:rofl -- Seems like that's between one's heart and the Lord.

I find your post offensive. Why the ****!!! am I not "worthy" because I'm not Catholic???

MaggieD said:

:rofl -- Seems like that's between one's heart and the Lord.

I find your post offensive. Why the ****!!! am I not "worthy" because I'm not Catholic???

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I didn't say worthy. I said that if your mother doesn't recognize it as the literal body and blood of Christ then she's drinking judgment on herself.

MaggieD said:

:rofl -- Seems like that's between one's heart and the Lord.

I find your post offensive. Why the ****!!! am I not "worthy" because I'm not Catholic???

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Because you don't understand what it is.

phattonez said:

I didn't say worthy. I said that if your mother doesn't recognize it as the literal body and blood of Christ then she's drinking judgment on herself.

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This is nothing to do with a priest refusing to give communion. He didn't ask her if she recognized it as the literal body and blood of Chfrist, Phattonez. He asked if she was Catholic. (And that's the way it always is --- if you're not Catholic, you're not communion worthy.)

MaggieD said:

This is nothing to do with a priest refusing to give communion. He didn't ask her if she recognized it as the literal body and blood of Chfrist, Phattonez. He asked if she was Catholic. (And that's the way it always is --- if you're not Catholic, you're not communion worthy.)

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If you're not Catholic then you don't recognize that the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of Christ and that Catholic priests solely are ordained to consecrate bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.

MaggieD said:

This is nothing to do with a priest refusing to give communion. He didn't ask her if she recognized it as the literal body and blood of Chfrist, Phattonez. He asked if she was Catholic. (And that's the way it always is --- if you're not Catholic, you're not communion worthy.)

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How many non-Catholics do you know who believe in transubstantiation?

Paleocon said:

How many non-Catholics do you know who believe in transubstantiation?

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The better question is "How many non-Catholic ministers refuse communion to anyone who presents themselves?"

MaggieD said:

The better question is "How many non-Catholic ministers refuse communion to anyone who presents themselves?"

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Nice dodge.

MaggieD said:

The better question is "How many non-Catholic ministers refuse communion to anyone who presents themselves?"

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You realize that non-Catholic Communion is not the literal body and blood of Christ, correct? They're not all the same. Catholics and Protestants agree that what they call "Eucharist" is not the literal body and blood of Christ.