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Is God inside of time?

LOL you were trying to evangelize me? sigh... that's funny

You don't listen. Your ears are closed. You reject my statements with unproven opinion, and not well thought out either. You do not seek spiritual knowledge, you try to refute it. I am not very impressed. Very few disbelievers want to listen with an open mind. It is so intellectually dishonest and the consequences are so grave.

What's also funny is the assertion that the iconic theorists that I've listed does not understand what they are talking about. Those people I've listed created psychology as we know it today. If they don't know anything about thought, I doubt you would; since you failed to substantiate your claim that love is different than thought.

I am not talking of classifications of thought, for which they have been a blessing. I am talking about the fundamental nature of thought. They haven't a clue. You doubt because I don't have the right credentials and haven't paid my fee?
 
You don't listen. Your ears are closed. You reject my statements with unproven opinion, and not well thought out either. You do not seek spiritual knowledge, you try to refute it. I am not very impressed. Very few disbelievers want to listen with an open mind. It is so intellectually dishonest and the consequences are so grave.

I find it odd that you think that my disagreement with you is the result of me not listening to you. I think I've made it clear that my intention is seeing things from your point of view, by attempting to understand physics as you described, reading the Gospel of Mary, listened to the introduction of whatever lecture you linked earlier, etc. I have made every effort to see things from your point of view (as best to my ability). I simply disagree with it.

It is you who is failing to see things from my point of view. Saying that all of the theorists that I've mentioned irrelevant despite their expertise in the field; that is refusing to listen.

I think it would be prudent to re-examine your own perception.

I am not talking of classifications of thought, for which they have been a blessing. I am talking about the fundamental nature of thought. They haven't a clue. You doubt because I don't have the right credentials and haven't paid my fee?

Then why do you not answer my question? What qualitative attribute that love exhibits that thought does not also exhibit?
 
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When I hold a book in my hand, everything about that book, all that occurs in it .. has already been written.

As I read the book, my experience of it is in the present .. and I form my own personal time line which, after I'm done reading the book, I can reference regarding my experience of reading the book, an experience which is then in the past, and only my reference of it, when I'm so doing, is in the present.

But, like I refer to any time line, reading the book's time line is still just a reference of what the writer wrote. Once it was written, its occurrence .. is all in the past.

So I come to the part about God promising Canaan to Abraham.

Everything before the promise is of the past.

Everything after the moment of God making the promise is .. also, of the past.

Tell me .. how do you discern true from false, fact from fiction, reality .. from fantasy.

How do you know if God really made such a promise .. or if he didn't?

Faith?

Faith empowers us to imagine substantive realities .. where there are none.

Thereby, we can obtain hope.

The hope is what matters, as that carries us when reality bites too hard.

When the faith-powered image materializes, our faith grows.

When the faith-powered image fails to materialize, we lose faith.

What would it take for you to believe that God promised Canaan to Abraham? Because his family settled there? Because they're there now?

But forever is a very long .. time.

And, since forever has not occurred, you don't know that God made that promise, as the evidence is not all in.

God gave us free will, and so the future does not exist. The future could exist only if there was no free will.

Thus God could not make such a promise without violating his own omniscience.

Therefore, in reality, God never made that promise.

We made that promise.

As the great Karen Carpenter once sang, "... Once conceived, once believed, fantasy's reality's childhood, and like a seed visions need constant care like a child would .. we should .. look to our dreams, we can still make the stars, we can still break the bars that we've built here on Earth, look to your dreams and tomorrow may be better for you and me ..." ("Look To Your Dreams")

If you believe it's destiny .. well, sometimes all you really need to do is believe in something so strongly .. and you'll make it happen.

That's Canaan.

and what about prophesies? Rapture?
 
Instinct or emotion is still part of the brain but it's more of a reaction and comes from a different area than reasoning or imagination. Emotions are programming done by nature in order for a species to survive and interact with their environment. The higher thought processes or thinking arise from complex, larger brain capacities and definitely are affected by emotions and have more self awareness. We have "cognitive" versus "non-cognitive" emotions, or instinctual emotions (from the amygdala), versus cognitive emotions (from the prefrontal cortex).

Scientists now know through the use of experiments and clinical observation that thoughts, feelings, and perceptions coexist as a unified whole and can't be easily teased apart. Thus, every thought is given a positive or negative emotional valence that allows us to prioritize our actions on those thoughts.

Neurological research has shown that people who suffered brain damage that cuts thoughts removed from feelings cannot prioritize a list of preferences and act on them in order to achieve the simplest of goals. Even simple tasks, such as choosing a restaurant, become impossible due to entrapment in a never-ending cost-benefit analysis of numerous and conflicting options.

Similarly, computer programmers have struggled to build up simple algorithms that can generate decisions, appropriately weighing all the costs and benefits without becoming literally buried underneath an infinite loop of ones and zeros.

So the instincts to feel affection, anger or ambivalence for family, friends or anything are not always completely controllable. Thoughts and emotions are two different parts of the brain that work together to form a whole personality or mind. But emotions over time can be affected or controlled by reasoning and maturity. I've known brilliant people who were emotionally immature and others with little education who well exceeded peers in common sense, wisdom and learned experience (emotional maturity).

But before humans had any higher thinking skills we were instinctual animals who at some point began to develop self awareness and cognitive decision making. Even lower animal species have the instinctual ability to love (care) for their own. I don't think there is any way to discover all that we are because like an endless combination of 0's and 1's we have endless potential. Somehow we are more than the sum total of our parts. And if there's a supreme being made of pure energy with endless potential aware of time but unaffected by it, then how will we discover this with reason alone?

All you have said is true, and you'll not find me disagreeing with any of the above. However, the classification of love as an emotion is not accurate.

Psychological studies have shown that a wide range of emotions are present in all of the different societies and cultures that exist in the world. Each of these emotions are, well, emotive. For instance happy is easily seen in the smiling face. The teary eyes would be an indication of sadness or pain. The alerted expression as surprise. These (and others I've omitted) have been classified as universal emotions. Love is not considered as a universal emotion because it is not very emotive, or not very obvious or apparent. There is a certain fuzziness about Love. It's very similar to emotion, in that it is a state of mind. But it's outward appearance changes from culture to culture.

This would seem to suggest that it is affected by outside sources (outside of the mind or brain) edit: and thus different from instinct. In all cultures, a smiling face would not be mistaken for pain. The same cannot be said about love. Love has been portrayed in a very wide range, and some cultures would probably dispute that the expression even depicts of love. For instance, people killing for love, or hurting oneself for love, or hurting the person you love for love, or going mad in love, or going mad for love, or loving something that cannot love back, or loving something that hates you, or loving something that brings you pain, or loving something that brings you confusion, etc etc.

To state it plainly, love is not an emotion; but like emotion, love is a state of mind. To bring in perspective, drunkenness is also a state of mind. The state of mind does not always originate from the internal (mind).
 
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Also ours.



Born of a mixture of both despair followed by hope.

I think we need to parse words here...

The future having yet to come, only means that God has not fulfilled his promise/prophesy. It does not mean that he has not made the promise/prophesy.
 
I think we need to parse words here...

The future having yet to come, only means that God has not fulfilled his promise/prophesy. It does not mean that he has not made the promise/prophesy.
The future having yet to come implies predestination.

Due to free will, there is no predestination, and thus there is no future in any construct including the construct of "having yet to come".

Thus God could not have made the declaration.
 
The future having yet to come implies predestination.

Due to free will, there is no predestination, and thus there is no future in any construct including the construct of "having yet to come".

Thus God could not have made the declaration.

I see. Then you're saying the bible, which was written by men, is incorrect (correct me if I've made the wrong assumption here). However, isn't the bible the source of our definition for God as well? Isn't that paradoxical, if not ironic?
 
I see. Then you're saying the bible, which was written by men, is incorrect (correct me if I've made the wrong assumption here).
In so far as God predicting/prophesying/guaranteeing "the future", yes.

Now, God (or anyone, for that matter), can still state the laws of physics or spirits or whatever and say, for example, "It is highly likely that if you run out in the street in front of a speeding truck you may indeed be killed." But that's not predicting/prophesying/guaranteeing "the future", as free will gives us a say in whether we're going to run out into the street in front of the speeding truck or not and there are other variables at play that would determine whether we'd be killed or not.


However, isn't the bible the source of our definition for God as well?
It is one of the places where we've documented our "definition" of God.


Isn't that paradoxical, if not ironic?
Not so much the former, though slightly the latter.

Still, it is possible to have a book contain a mix of fact and fantasy.

We may call it fact, but if it's truly a mix, well ... .
 
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All you have said is true, and you'll not find me disagreeing with any of the above. However, the classification of love as an emotion is not accurate.

Psychological studies have shown that a wide range of emotions are present in all of the different societies and cultures that exist in the world. Each of these emotions are, well, emotive. For instance happy is easily seen in the smiling face. The teary eyes would be an indication of sadness or pain. The alerted expression as surprise. These (and others I've omitted) have been classified as universal emotions. Love is not considered as a universal emotion because it is not very emotive, or not very obvious or apparent. There is a certain fuzziness about Love. It's very similar to emotion, in that it is a state of mind. But it's outward appearance changes from culture to culture.

This would seem to suggest that it is affected by outside sources (outside of the mind or brain) edit: and thus different from instinct. In all cultures, a smiling face would not be mistaken for pain. The same cannot be said about love. Love has been portrayed in a very wide range, and some cultures would probably dispute that the expression even depicts of love. For instance, people killing for love, or hurting oneself for love, or hurting the person you love for love, or going mad in love, or going mad for love, or loving something that cannot love back, or loving something that hates you, or loving something that brings you pain, or loving something that brings you confusion, etc etc.

To state it plainly, love is not an emotion; but like emotion, love is a state of mind. To bring in perspective, drunkenness is also a state of mind. The state of mind does not always originate from the internal (mind).

You're saying love isn't an emotion but an act of reason or state of mind? I think half of humanity may disagree with that statement. Love is basically the act or state of caring, which as I stated even animals are capable of showing. Granted the amount of thought and action devoted to caring is substantial and it comes in a variety of forms, romantic, family, friend and compassion towards others.

I will agree with this much that a supreme being is probably the purest source of caring (love). I wouldn't be surprised in the end if isn't shown that it was all done for love, when the curtain is lifted and the truth revealed.

In so far as God predicting/prophesying/guaranteeing "the future", yes.

Now, God (or anyone, for that matter), can still state the laws of physics or spirits or whatever and say, for example, "It is highly likely that if you run out in the street in front of a speeding truck you may indeed be killed." But that's not predicting/prophesying/guaranteeing "the future", as free will gives us a say in whether we're going to run out into the street in front of the speeding truck or not and there are other variables at play that would determine whether we'd be killed or not.



It is one of the places where we've documented our "definition" of God.



Not so much the former, though slightly the latter.

Still, it is possible to have a book contain a mix of fact and fantasy.

We may call it fact, but if it's truly a mix, well ... .

I absolutely agree that probably about half the bible is true but who knows what parts for sure. Somehow I think God can see the future, partially because a big fundamental part of the bible speaks to prophecy.

This below was part of the Old Testament. The exact price Jesus was betrayed.

Zechariah 11:12-13
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.


Not saying possibly someone didn't chronologically add it later but if not bizarre.
 
You're saying love isn't an emotion but an act of reason or state of mind? I think half of humanity may disagree with that statement. Love is basically the act or state of caring, which as I stated even animals are capable of showing. Granted the amount of thought and action devoted to caring is substantial and it comes in a variety of forms, romantic, family, friend and compassion towards others.

I will agree with this much that a supreme being is probably the purest source of caring (love). I wouldn't be surprised in the end if isn't shown that it was all done for love, when the curtain is lifted and the truth revealed.

I'm not sure I understand correctly...

Caring requires a lot of thought, and that love is a state of caring....Are we not able to infer that love is a thought or at least similar to thought from that reasoning?
 
I absolutely agree that probably about half the bible is true but who knows what parts for sure.
It might be easier to know some of the other half, as the parts that are fantasy can sometimes be more obvious.


Somehow I think God can see the future, partially because a big fundamental part of the bible speaks to prophecy.
If I repeatedly say over time that there's a cat in the chair does that make it so?

If I am in a room where there are 10 cats and I predict that soon a cat will be in the chair, and in time a cat jumps up onto the chair, did I see "the future"?


This below was part of the Old Testament. The exact price Jesus was betrayed.

Zechariah 11:12-13
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.


Not saying possibly someone didn't chronologically add it later but if not bizarre.
Not so much that it was added later ..

.. As the common price was quite well known long before.

Perhaps someone(s) had some fun with that. After all, much was being attributed to Jesus of Nazareth that was of a "godly" nature. It's understandable that someone might have been in a satirical mood.

But, Zechariah was a man.

He wasn't God.

Men are allowed to predict/prophesy/guarantee "the future" -- it's one of the "less-than-omni" things we're able to error at doing.

God .. doesn't do that.

Our free will prevents it.
 
I'm not sure I understand correctly...

Caring requires a lot of thought, and that love is a state of caring....Are we not able to infer that love is a thought or at least similar to thought from that reasoning?

I'm not saying thoughts aren't driven by emotion. The ability to reason and value things comes from emotion and thought but love is not part of a logical analysis it comes from desire and affinity for affection.
 
It might be easier to know some of the other half, as the parts that are fantasy can sometimes be more obvious.



If I repeatedly say over time that there's a cat in the chair does that make it so?

If I am in a room where there are 10 cats and I predict that soon a cat will be in the chair, and in time a cat jumps up onto the chair, did I see "the future"?



Not so much that it was added later ..

.. As the common price was quite well known long before.

Perhaps someone(s) had some fun with that. After all, much was being attributed to Jesus of Nazareth that was of a "godly" nature. It's understandable that someone might have been in a satirical mood.

But, Zechariah was a man.

He wasn't God.

Men are allowed to predict/prophesy/guarantee "the future" -- it's one of the "less-than-omni" things we're able to error at doing.

God .. doesn't do that.

Our free will prevents it.


But God could work through an individual? If not than we're not talking omni but a lesser and limited being.
 
"Fantasy" as in the future? I see what you did there ;)
Remember .. if it's fantasy, it does not exist outside our mind.

"The future" is fantasy, not reality.

Therefore we say it does not exist (in reality).

"(In reality)", as we speak here, is iimplied.
 
But God could work through an individual? If not than we're not talking omni but a lesser and limited being.
If God were to merely puppet another and use that puppet to predict the future, would that not be the same as if God did it himself?

For God to do that .. would be deceitful.

Which brings up a good question: is there an omni-quality of God that states God is all good?

If so, by what interpretation?

And, if so, would that most likely exclude acts of deceit such as puppet-prophesying?

But if not, if there is no guarantee that God is all good ..

.. Then boy are we in big trouble.
 
If God were to merely puppet another and use that puppet to predict the future, would that not be the same as if God did it himself?

For God to do that .. would be deceitful.

Which brings up a good question: is there an omni-quality of God that states God is all good?

If so, by what interpretation?

And, if so, would that most likely exclude acts of deceit such as puppet-prophesying?

But if not, if there is no guarantee that God is all good ..

.. Then boy are we in big trouble.

Now you're entering the territory of defining what is good and what is God. Believe me those two alone can stump you indefinitely. I've yet to come up with satisfactory answers. Disciplining a child for their own good seems like crap to the kid but obviously not to the parent. I think we have to forgive and trust God, just as a child does for their own parents.

As far as working through us I'm not sure where we begin and where God ends. We may never know that answer but I bet He's in you and you're not even aware of the presence.
 
Full disclaimer. I'm an atheist but I do like to think about these issues and I am not trying to bait anyone.

From a scriptural point of view, is the Christian God inside or outside of time?

When you define time and most of the science world accepts your definition, then you can go on and ask this kind of meaningless question.
 
I'm not saying thoughts aren't driven by emotion. The ability to reason and value things comes from emotion and thought but love is not part of a logical analysis it comes from desire and affinity for affection.

Allow me another chance at explaining what I meant by state of mind.

Have you ever found yourself driving without thinking about driving? As if you were on "auto pilot"? People often go on "auto pilot" if they drive frequently to the same places over and over, and it happens even more frequently when it's part of your daily routine. Such as driving home from work. You don't think about it. In other words, your state of mind becomes reactive, rather than proactive. You're not giving any thought to your actions, you're merely aware of the situation and letting your body react independent from your thoughts. And if you're like me, I think about things that I'll be doing once I get home, or I'm planning some other things to do in the next few days, but I'm not actively thinking about driving. What does this tell us? That we can be active in various other thoughts, while letting our state of mind take care of things that we are not paying attention to. That is what I mean by state of mind. Your awareness of the current situation is.....somewhat fleeting. You're not actively involved, instead you're actively involved in other thoughts that are entirely different from what your body is doing.

Now, could you have been on "auto pilot" when you were a beginner driver? No, because your motor skills have not been developed yet. Since they're not developed, your state of mind needs to be actively aware of what your are doing, in order for you to drive correctly. Once you become familiarized with it, and developed sufficient muscle memory, your mind gradually becomes reactive, rather than proactive. In other words, this is a learned response; Not instinct. Although it may seem a person on "auto pilot" may have a natural ability to drive, making it look like instinct.

I mentioned drunkenness as a state of mind. Alcohol impairs our minds if drunk in excess. More accurately, it impairs our thought process. It sort of forces us into a state of mind, a sort of "auto pilot", except without us having secondary thoughts (as in the example above). Which explains why so many people do stupid things when they're drunk. But notice, that alcohol is what caused the state of mind, an outside source. Again, not part of instinct.

Love, I would argue, is a learned response (like a state of mind). One that naturally occurs in a social species like Humans. I want to point out that naturally occurring is not the same as instinct.

Look at a newborn child. What does he know? From instincts, he knows hunger, pain, satisfaction, warmth, comfort, etc. But does he truly know love? He may recognize his caretaker, and he may expect to be satisfied or comforted whenever he sees the caretaker, and he may smile or coo or make other affectionate gestures when the caretaker is present, but does this constitute love? I don't think that would be enough. Skinner would say that the newborn is conditioned to make those responses because it reinforces it's behavior when the caretaker is more affectionate towards the newborn.

Look at an older child. Does he know love now? Young children do not know the difference from good and bad, they do not have enough life experience (as argued by Kohlberg). They do however know the difference from reward and punishment. If a child only knows that much, I don't think he would be able to understand authentic love.

Finally you look at the young adult and it is clear that many of them do realize the thing we call love. How did this happen? I'm not sure exactly how, but the progression of events seem to suggest that knowing love is a learned response. We don't seem to possess it when we are born.
 
When you define time and most of the science world accepts your definition, then you can go on and ask this kind of meaningless question.

Time is a slippery concept. It may have an arrow and generally is that which is measured by clocks of any form, e.g. the movement of a pendulum, the aging of a cell, the decay of atoms or the revolution of a planet.

However you define time, if you believe in God, you have the question of whether God is inside of time (and I gave several examples of how this would work, e.g. him not knowing whether Job would win him the bet with Satan) or outside (and, again, I gave operative definitions for the purposes of this discussion, that time is like a book already read by God which would have some impact on questions of predestination).

Perhaps this should be meaningless to me since I am an atheist. However, I do like to understand other people's POV. Others may not and are certainly invited to disregard the question. I makes no difference to moi. *shrug*

FWIW, I have really enjoyed reading all of the positive posts on the thread. I have not participated because this is a question on which I am not qualified to comment being a non-believer. I do appreciate all of the considered thought and intelligent discussion by believers and others..
 
Hello

God is time and everything else. Clarification. God can move through time and can exist in any time It chooses.

Wolfman 24
 
Full disclaimer. I'm an atheist but I do like to think about these issues and I am not trying to bait anyone.

From a scriptural point of view, is the Christian God inside or outside of time? In other words, is he moving along time with us, not knowing if Adam will eat the apple? Or did he set up the Garden of Eden, knowing already that the apple would be consumed?

Are we like a DVD to Him which he keeps on his shelf to watch at his pleasure or is his time moving alongside our own?

I assume he did not know Adam would eat the apple or how his bet with Satan on Job would turn out. That's was a sucker's bet if he did know!

I'd like to know how religious people view this question.

Does omnipotence or omniscience mean that He already knows what we are going to do because he can be at any point in time at will? How does free will fit in with this concept?

If He is outside of time, that would argue for predestination, I suppose?

An inquiring mind, wants to know.

Joni

:) the simple answer is "no". God is not limited by time, but exists independent of it. Since time is connected to matter, and since God was the source of both, this is almost a tautology. Within the Bible, this is why God refers to Himself as "the I Am", the beginning and end etc. so on and so forth - because he IS at all points in time because time is in him rather than the other way around.
 
Full disclaimer. I'm an atheist but I do like to think about these issues and I am not trying to bait anyone.

From a scriptural point of view, is the Christian God inside or outside of time? In other words, is he moving along time with us, not knowing if Adam will eat the apple? Or did he set up the Garden of Eden, knowing already that the apple would be consumed?

Are we like a DVD to Him which he keeps on his shelf to watch at his pleasure or is his time moving alongside our own?

I assume he did not know Adam would eat the apple or how his bet with Satan on Job would turn out. That's was a sucker's bet if he did know!

I'd like to know how religious people view this question.

Does omnipotence or omniscience mean that He already knows what we are going to do because he can be at any point in time at will? How does free will fit in with this concept?

If He is outside of time, that would argue for predestination, I suppose?

An inquiring mind, wants to know.

Joni

He is outside time. All of eternity is a single moment to him.
 
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