• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Is God inside of time?

Goshin said:
Limited beings, like humans, find it extremely difficult to comprehend the Absolute. That in a way, being Omni-/etc is self-limiting.

If the Omni allows a million people the choice of jumping to A or B, the fact that the Omni already know you'll chose B in no way negates the fact, that that was YOUR choice. The Omni foreknew, but did not foreordain it.


We have a measure of free will.
Click to expand...

To me the limits of that free will is sometimes delineated within the parameters of what is known as social norms.
 
i havent seen and met god yet but if he is god ,he cant be like a human he created and must not be either.he belongs to another dimension where he doesnt need any time and even if he is dependent on time ,that cant be like a time which we know , this time concept is just valid for us.and god cant be a part of anything which he created and directed
 
Medusa said:
i havent seen and met god yet but if he is god ,he cant be like a human he created and must not be either.he belongs to another dimension where he doesnt need any time and even if he is dependent on time ,that cant be like a time which we know , this time concept is just valid for us.and god cant be a part of anything which he created and directed
Click to expand...

Time is simply a measurement of spacial displacement. At a given time, you are here, then at another, you are there. The common misconception that people have about time, is that they think it's a clock; that it never ends and keeps going in that cycle.

Time is how we can tell how one thing moved to another place. Time, therefore, is a measurement of something that is physical. As long as there is movement, there can be time, because position A would be transitioned into position B. IF, there has been no change, that position A remains static, then we can no longer measure time. Because we both start out and end with position A.

Take for example a photograph or a snap shot. You look at it now, and you look at it 10 years from now, and nothing has changed. How will you be able to tell the difference of it 10 years ago or now (given that the photograph remains constant and unchanging)? Time, would appear, to have froze. In other words, non existent.


To say that God is outside of time, is to imply that he is also not physical. IF he is physical, then time can be used to measure his movements.
 
Last edited:
Lightdemon said:
Time is simply a measurement of spacial displacement. At a given time, you are here, then at another, you are there. The common misconception that people have about time, is that they think it's a clock; that it never ends and keeps going in that cycle.

Time is how we can tell how one thing moved to another place. Time, therefore, is a measurement of something that is physical. As long as there is movement, there can be time, because position A would be transitioned into position B. IF, there has been no change, that position A remains static, then we can no longer measure time. Because we both start out and end with position A.

Take for example a photograph or a snap shot. You look at it now, and you look at it 10 years from now, and nothing has changed. How will you be able to tell the difference of it 10 years ago or now (given that the photograph remains constant and unchanging)? Time, would appear, to have froze. In other words, non existent.


To say that God is outside of time, is to imply that he is also not physical. IF he is physical, then time can be used to measure his movements.
Click to expand...


i know time is related to our movement but god is metaphysical ,at least he cant be like us because he is not human.and we cant see him.we cant know if he has to move or moves,do you know?,i cant know if he moves or if he needs a time concept,really i dont know anything about him but just believe in him and the fact that he observes us to examine .but if he is physical,yes he becomes dependent on time but according to qoran ,time flows slower for god and it means this is not like our time concept
 
Medusa said:
i know time is related to our movement but god is metaphysical ,at least he cant be like us because he is not human.and we cant see him.we cant know if he has to move or moves,do you know?,i cant know if he moves or if he needs a time concept,really i dont know anything about him but just believe in him and the fact that he observes us to examine .but if he is physical,yes he becomes dependent on time but according to qoran ,time flows slower for god and it means this is not like our time concept
Click to expand...

saying that time "moves slower" is the demonstration of the misconception I was talking about earlier. Time is a measurement, not an idea or construct. Measurements does not move slower....They either measure or they don't measure.

Time is dependent on two things: movement and matter. You must have both in order to utilize the measurement of time. Otherwise, time would be arbitrary and meaningless.
 
Goshin said:
Limited beings, like humans, find it extremely difficult to comprehend the Absolute. That in a way, being Omni-/etc is self-limiting.

If the Omni allows a million people the choice of jumping to A or B, the fact that the Omni already know you'll chose B in no way negates the fact, that that was YOUR choice. The Omni foreknew, but did not foreordain it.


We have a measure of free will.
Click to expand...

I agree with this that God can see time from beginning to end but doesn't interfere very much with cause and effect or free will.

I also believe God permeates all of existence and is beyond it. Possibly in a timeless dimension, without measurement.
 
grip said:
I agree with this that God can see time from beginning to end but doesn't interfere very much with cause and effect or free will.
Click to expand...

But if God interferes at all wouldn't that lead him to affect all actions that follow his interference? Since he's able to see everything and thus the future. Isn't he interfering to manipulate the future? Isn't that interfering with free will?
 
Lightdemon said:
But if God interferes at all wouldn't that lead him to affect all actions that follow his interference? Since he's able to see everything and thus the future. Isn't he interfering to manipulate the future? Isn't that interfering with free will?
Click to expand...

Not if he is part of the equation on a subconscious level. Permeate means to be pervasive in the nature of something but doesn't necessitate control. Our essence or subconscious life force may be separate from our personalities and from cause and effect.
 
grip said:
Not if he is part of the equation on a subconscious level. Permeate means to be pervasive in the nature of something but doesn't necessitate control. Our essence or subconscious life force may be separate from our personalities and from cause and effect.
Click to expand...

When he raised the great flood and spared Noah and his ark, what degree of pervasiveness was god at that point? Or when he manifested himself as Jesus? Or when he written the 10 Commandments on stone and gave it to Moses?

There is a certain amount of degree of control here, wouldn't you agree?
 
Lightdemon said:
When he raised the great flood and spared Noah and his ark, what degree of pervasiveness was god at that point? Or when he manifested himself as Jesus? Or when he written the 10 Commandments on stone and gave it to Moses?

There is a certain amount of degree of control here, wouldn't you agree?
Click to expand...

Don't know if any of that is true. But I agree even scientists say there had to be a first cause or prime mover. Could be He causes everything and we are merely different gloves he takes off and on.
 
Lightdemon said:
meaning that the will of God will happen regardless of our choices, but nevertheless we have choices still?

That's double talk. Just sayin'
Click to expand...
Only where you define free will as omnipotence.
 
grip said:
Don't know if any of that is true. But I agree even scientists say there had to be a first cause or prime mover. Could be He causes everything and we are merely different gloves he takes off and on.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I'm saying in my other posts. Free will is an illusion if God is interfering with the physical world. If we say that he is Omniscient, then he cannot interfere, otherwise that negates free will.
 
Lightdemon said:
meaning that the will of God will happen regardless of our choices, but nevertheless we have choices still?

That's double talk. Just sayin'
Click to expand...


Nope.

Lemme splain, Lucie. :)


Theology According to Goshin....

God's will comes in three flavors...

There is his Sovereign Will, which is that which he mandates will be, and will be regardless of any choices made by Man....

There is his Guiding Will, which is how he wants each of us as an individual to live our lives in order to maximize our fellowship with Him and our love towards one another....

And there is his Permissive Will.... which basically covers everything else, and apparently God is pretty Libertarian about how bad he will let humans as a whole and human individuals behave. He gave us free will as a gift, so that we would be sapient beings and not merely automatons running His program and unable to do otherwise.... it would be a sham if he didn't allow us considerable room to exercise that free will.



As to the difference between foreknowlege and predestination....
I'm a veteran driver. Been on the roads for over 30 years, done a lot of traveling, had a lot of jobs that involved lots of driving. I've had professional driver training and probably 4x more road-hours than Joe Average in that time. I can see what's going to happen before it actually happens with something like 95% accuracy. If I see a guy going too fast and something ahead he hasn't yet noticed and I say "Oh crap, he's not going to get stopped in time..." and sure enough, he doesn't.... well I KNEW what was going to happen (called it accurately) but I didn't MAKE it happen, it was his choice to go too fast.


God sees every sparrow that falls, but He wasn't necessarily the one that knocked 'em out of the sky.
 
Goshin said:
There is his Sovereign Will, which is that which he mandates will be, and will be regardless of any choices made by Man....

There is his Guiding Will, which is how he wants each of us as an individual to live our lives in order to maximize our fellowship with Him and our love towards one another....

And there is his Permissive Will.... which basically covers everything else, and apparently God is pretty Libertarian about how bad he will let humans as a whole and human individuals behave. He gave us free will as a gift, so that we would be sapient beings and not merely automatons running His program and unable to do otherwise.... it would be a sham if he didn't allow us considerable room to exercise that free will.
Click to expand...

That's sounds reasonable, sure.

As to the difference between foreknowlege and predestination....
I'm a veteran driver. Been on the roads for over 30 years, done a lot of traveling, had a lot of jobs that involved lots of driving. I've had professional driver training and probably 4x more road-hours than Joe Average in that time. I can see what's going to happen before it actually happens with something like 95% accuracy. If I see a guy going too fast and something ahead he hasn't yet noticed and I say "Oh crap, he's not going to get stopped in time..." and sure enough, he doesn't.... well I KNEW what was going to happen (called it accurately) but I didn't MAKE it happen, it was his choice to go too fast.
Click to expand...

The difference between God and you, is that he had set up the situation by creating it in the first place. He was conscious of every subsequent action that follows his (because of Omniscience), and therefore, his first act (creation) set up all of the subsequent situation/scenarios. It was by design. His design.

God sees every sparrow that falls, but He wasn't necessarily the one that knocked 'em out of the sky.
Click to expand...

It most certainly was Him who knocked them out of the sky.
 
Lightdemon said:
That's sounds reasonable, sure.



The difference between God and you, is that he had set up the situation by creating it in the first place. He was conscious of every subsequent action that follows his (because of Omniscience), and therefore, his first act (creation) set up all of the subsequent situation/scenarios. It was by design. His design.



It most certainly was Him who knocked them out of the sky.
Click to expand...


I had this very argument with myself several years ago and concluded there is no way of knowing how much God directly nudges or genuinely changes and how much is free will and sheer providence. There's even a scripture (Isaiah 46:10) of God speaking through a prophet saying, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." It's simply a mystery how both exist but I believe they do.
 
Lightdemon said:
That's sounds reasonable, sure.



The difference between God and you, is that he had set up the situation by creating it in the first place. He was conscious of every subsequent action that follows his (because of Omniscience), and therefore, his first act (creation) set up all of the subsequent situation/scenarios. It was by design. His design.



It most certainly was Him who knocked them out of the sky.
Click to expand...


I don't agree. Setting things in motion is one thing; where some of those "things" are sapient beings capable of making choices contrary to the Creator's will, free will becomes possible even if the Creator is omniscient.

I knew you would jump left, does not change the fact that you chose to jump left.
 
grip said:
I had this very argument with myself several years ago and concluded there is no way of knowing how much God directly nudges or genuinely changes and how much is free will and sheer providence. There's even a scripture (Isaiah 46:10) of God speaking through a prophet saying, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." It's simply a mystery how both exist but I believe they do.
Click to expand...

I have pondered this very question for years as well, and every time I come to the same conclusion, no matter what argument was being used: Both cannot exist in the same universe. The only way to reconcile God's Omniscience is to say that he cannot interfere with the physical world that we live in. Even if he interfere's slightly, because of his Omniscience, his small act can have huge repercussions, because he is able to see the exponential amounts consequences that follow it. He's guiding the future with just a little nudge.

I believe that is enough to say that free will has been violated.
 
Goshin said:
I don't agree. Setting things in motion is one thing; where some of those "things" are sapient beings capable of making choices contrary to the Creator's will, free will becomes possible even if the Creator is omniscient.

I knew you would jump left, does not change the fact that you chose to jump left.
Click to expand...

Would you respond to post 18 then? Because that would be the argument I would use to respond to this post.
 
Lightdemon said:
Would you respond to post 18 then? Because that would be the argument I would use to respond to this post.
Click to expand...

Okay.


Lightdemon said:
Here is how I see Adam and Eve, with regards to Free Will:

God tells them to obey him, and gives them free will. Meaning that they now have to choose 1 of 2 actions: Obey or Disobey.

Humans are imperfect, because the only perfect being is God himself, and it is explicit in the bible that there can only be one true God. Thus, being imperfect we, as humans, had to disobey. Think of it as you were given a test everyday, and you're expected to achieve 100% each and every time. No matter what test it is, there will always be human error.

God, of course being omniscient, is fully aware that Humans are not perfect, and therefore knew that they will fail eventually. The fact that he gave them free will, and the fact that humans will fail eventually (meaning that they will always choose to disobey given time), means that there was always only 1 choice that was possible to begin with. To obey God's command, 100% of the time, was impossible for humans. Since the choice was always to disobey, 1 choice only, free will then becomes just an illusion.


EDIT: In order for God to be able to have Omniscience and give free will to everyone, he has to be outside of time, and therefore outside physically, for that to be possible. In other words, he cannot perform miracles or interact with anything that exists physically.
Click to expand...

According to Genesis, Adam and Eve were created perfect and without flaw, and were sinless. Therefore it is possible that they could have resisted the temptation to eat the forbidden fruit (taking this account literally we don't know what sort of fruit, and the fruit wasn't the point, the act of disobedience was) and remained in a state of innocence.

Did God know they would disobey? Yes. Does that change the fact that they were allowed to choose? No.

This involves two different perspectives: the Omni perspective, and the mortal perspective. From the Omni perspective it was known what choice would be made when choice was allowed to happen; from the mortal perspective the choice was there and had to be made and the act actually committed.

Depending on which way you choose to look at it, you could argue that God set us up to fail... or that He simply set up the test and we COULD have succeeded had we chosen otherwise, regardless of His foreknowlege of our choice.

If God set us up to fail, the next question would be, Why?

Perhaps out of a million million possible futures, this was the best possible one given the parameters He was working with? Who could possibly say in dealing with the Omni? Only the Omni himself, and His power is self-limiting if He wants us to be anything other than sock puppets.

If you view free will as an absolute (ie you have free will to choose ANYTHING within your capabilities at ANY time and are never constrained or influenced in ANY way) then I can see where you would say that free will is illusionary. Absolute free will is something that probably cannot exist.

Perhaps I only get to choose paper or plastic, when I'd rather have platinum. :) At least I got some choice....


Our most important choice, of course, is whether to seek fellowship with God in accordance with His will, or to reject same or attempt to substitute "our way" for His. In this regard I believe we do indeed have unencumbered free will, though certain Calvinists would disagree with me.
 
Goshin said:
Okay.

According to Genesis, Adam and Eve were created perfect and without flaw, and were sinless. Therefore it is possible that they could have resisted the temptation to eat the forbidden fruit (taking this account literally we don't know what sort of fruit, and the fruit wasn't the point, the act of disobedience was) and remained in a state of innocence.
Click to expand...

I believe it is more accurate to say they were ignorant, which then leads to innocence, and then sinless. Like children.

Did God know they would disobey? Yes. Does that change the fact that they were allowed to choose? No.
Click to expand...

God knew before the situation arose, and decided to put Adam and Even into that situation knowing full well that they will fail. The possibility that they will succeed was never possible, and therefore not even a possible choice. The choice that was possible, was the only one available, which was to disobey. Being that there was always one choice, one possible choice, there was no actual free will.

If the other choice was at least possible, then yes, there would be free will. But God's Omniscience prevented all other choices because it is revealed that there is only one choice, and that is the will of God. His Permissive Will is an illusion.

This involves two different perspectives: the Omni perspective, and the mortal perspective. From the Omni perspective it was known what choice would be made when choice was allowed to happen; from the mortal perspective the choice was there and had to be made and the act actually committed.

Depending on which way you choose to look at it, you could argue that God set us up to fail... or that He simply set up the test and we COULD have succeeded had we chosen otherwise, regardless of His foreknowlege of our choice.
Click to expand...

No, they couldn't have. It was impossible. God saw their "choice" before they even made it, all other choices were not possible, and therefore not available for you to choose from. That inability to choose violates free will.

If God set us up to fail, the next question would be, Why?

Perhaps out of a million million possible futures, this was the best possible one given the parameters He was working with? Who could possibly say in dealing with the Omni? Only the Omni himself, and His power is self-limiting if He wants us to be anything other than sock puppets.
Click to expand...

On that, I have no clue.

If you view free will as an absolute (ie you have free will to choose ANYTHING within your capabilities at ANY time and are never constrained or influenced in ANY way) then I can see where you would say that free will is illusionary. Absolute free will is something that probably cannot exist.

Perhaps I only get to choose paper or plastic, when I'd rather have platinum. :) At least I got some choice....
Click to expand...

Yes, that is exactly how I see it. Under those conditions, free will is not violated.

Our most important choice, of course, is whether to seek fellowship with God in accordance with His will, or to reject same or attempt to substitute "our way" for His. In this regard I believe we do indeed have unencumbered free will, though certain Calvinists would disagree with me.
Click to expand...

Otherwise it wont be considered authentic love.
 
grip said:
Don't know if any of that is true. But I agree even scientists say there had to be a first cause or prime mover.
Click to expand...


From the prologue of Steven Hawking's A Brief History of Time:

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"

I have read some scientists argue for the possibility of an acausal beginning. This is not any more satisfying than infinite regress. I do not know how either possibility can be satisfactorily eliminated or enthusiastically embraced.
 
Lightdemon said:
Can you elaborate a little? I don't quite understand what you're trying to say.
Click to expand...
What I mean is that the term 'free will' invites the definition that we're at will to dictate any outcome. But that needn't be the case for it to operate.

I liken free will to electrical cable. The coloured wires representing possible courses to a destination. The outer covering being limitation. The destination as foregone, not illustrative of the means by which we arrive there. Only that we will.

You wouldn't equate your inability to jump over Mount Everest, as proof of there being no free will. Only that your choices, whilst numerous, are defined by limitation. Hence lack of omnipotence not invalidating the capacity to choose.

You have the capacity to make choices, but not to reorder the universe.
 
God did not create the circumstances that individuals are in to force them to one particular choice or another. To say that God's omniscience denies free will would seem to argue that God purposely set up the Universe and chose the winners and losers ahead of time. That, indeed, would be beastly.

People of identical life circumstances can choose to do evil or good. This is evidence that externalities are not the real reason for good or evil deeds.

To me, the proof of free will being compatible with an omniscient God is that people are all made in God's image, i.e. our spiritual natures. Our bodies are different from each others, and we were all born in to different political and social circumstances. But our true heavenly essence, our spirits, are identical, and Paul says as much in Colossians 3:10-11 "put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him, a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all."

As such, we all have the same spiritual connection to God in the same measure, and only through our own choice to heed God's call or to ignore it do we condemn ourselves.

We all start from the same framework, but because of Adam and Eve's original sin, we fall short of the perfection that God created in us. This is why Christ had to enter the world to take away that original sin, and through His saving grace, we can make a new choice for ourselves to follow him or ignore the Good News.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom