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Is God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit 3 separate entities?

Hello

God is God, Jesus the Christ (christi being the Greek word for the annointed one) was the physical embodiment of God so that Man could understand. If the Holy spirit exists then it is simply the energy that God emits through his being. They are the same thing.

There is a great story told in Catholic Schools about St. John Boscoe (as i remember). St. John was a brilliant theologian and scholar and was attending a conclave in Italy where the idea of 3 persons in one was being discussed. St. John became troubled by his inability to work it out and went for a walk on the beach. Far up ahead he saw a young boy taking water from the ocean in a pail and putting into a small hole on the beach. St. John became curious and went up to the boy and asked what he was doing. The boy replied he was putting the ocean into the hole. St John replied you can't do that. the boys face became deadly serious and he said Neither can you. St. John at first ignored the comment but after walking a while he turned around to answer the boy but no one was there.

I love that story.

Thanks

Wolfman24
 
wolfman24 said:
Hello

God is God, Jesus the Christ (christi being the Greek word for the annointed one) was the physical embodiment of God so that Man could understand. If the Holy spirit exists then it is simply the energy that God emits through his being. They are the same thing.

There is a great story told in Catholic Schools about St. John Boscoe (as i remember). St. John was a brilliant theologian and scholar and was attending a conclave in Italy where the idea of 3 persons in one was being discussed. St. John became troubled by his inability to work it out and went for a walk on the beach. Far up ahead he saw a young boy taking water from the ocean in a pail and putting into a small hole on the beach. St. John became curious and went up to the boy and asked what he was doing. The boy replied he was putting the ocean into the hole. St John replied you can't do that. the boys face became deadly serious and he said Neither can you. St. John at first ignored the comment but after walking a while he turned around to answer the boy but no one was there.

I love that story.

Thanks

Wolfman24
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I like that story too, I'd not heard it before. Thanks.
 
Enola said:
I get confused. Did God take human form as Jesus? Or was Jesus unique?
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When Bill Maher asked that, somebody told him that those three are like ice, water and steam - they are still H2O but in different shape.

Just sayin'. :)
 
Hello

I remember him saying that but I forgot the quote which is a really good one,

Wolfman24
 
Canell said:
When Bill Maher asked that, somebody told him that those three are like ice, water and steam - they are still H2O but in different shape.

Just sayin'. :)
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Actually, the vast majority of Christian denominations (including Evangelicals) consider that heresy.

It's called "modalism."
 
Enola said:
Did God take human form as Jesus? Or was Jesus unique?
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:) Yes! :prof


I get confused.
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There is actually a club for people who are confused when they try to answer this question. It is called "everybody who has actually tried to answer this question".

In reality, this is a question whose answer is beyond the limitations of the human mind to comprehend. It's sort of like trying to write a one followed by infinity zeroes - the very act of attempting the task requires limiting it in an artificial manner that does not conform to what you are trying to represent.
 
To my knowledge, there is only one cleverbot program, yet I can run multiple instances of the cleverbot program at the same time. Two instances of a cleverbot program can even have a conversation with each other. Despite sharing the exact same code, one cleverbot instance could behave subserviently to another. For example, one cleverbot instance might say to another, "Please, I don't want to be an iphone app, but if I must, your will not mine."

Not really that hard to wrap your head around.
 
I don't believe in the trinitarian creed, which came at the councel of Nisea ... AFTER the Roman Empire took Christianity and made it a state religion (corrupting it).

Biblically, Jesus never claimed to be God (JHWH and/or Elohim), he siad the father is greater than him, he prayed to the father, he submitted to the father, the father knew things he did not.

Also in Cronicles 1:13 it refers to him as the firstborn of creation meaning he was created as an angel, but is not God, in Corinthians it places jesus below God in the heiarchy, and that was AFTER Jesus died, was ressurected and assended.

Theologically it makes no sense as well, since Jesus being God would have been not equivalent to the sin of Adam, since it would have much more worth, as well as the concept that no one can see God, its also not consistant with monotheism.

All attempts to explain the trinity end up in incomprehensable metaphysics.
 
RGacky3 said:
I don't believe in the trinitarian creed, which came at the councel of Nisea ... AFTER the Roman Empire took Christianity and made it a state religion (corrupting it).
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Christianity is not made the "official" religion, it was legalized by the edict of Milan, certainly no less a milestone.

More importantly, the idea that the Holy Trinity "came at the council of Nicaea" is a common misconception.

The Trinity is a long held theological position by the orthodox Christians made obvious by the vote of the bishops supporting the Nicaean Creed by 312 to 4.

Historically the Trinity is embedded in early Christian writing and teaching from Paul forward. The actual use of the term trinity first found in writing in the mid second century making its common usage obvious among the Church fathers and consistantly taught from Polycarp on.

St Justin circa 150 "Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught."

Theophilus of Antioch in 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom".

Tertullian writes circa 200 "For the very Church itself is, properly and principally, the Spirit Himself, in whom is the Trinity of the One Divinity— Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

Gregory Thaumaturgus student of Origen circa 250 "There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever"

RGacky3 said:
Biblically, Jesus never claimed to be God (JHWH and/or Elohim), he siad the father is greater than him, he prayed to the father, he submitted to the father, the father knew things he did not.
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And as soon as it was day, the ancients of the people and the chief priests and scribes came together. And they brought him into their council saying: If you be the Christ, tell us. 67 And he says to them: If I shall tell you, you will not believe me. 68 And if I shall also ask you, you will not answer me, nor let me go. 69 But hereafter the Son of man shall be sitting on the right hand of the power of God. 70 Then said they all: Are you then the Son of God? Who said: You say that I am. 71 And they said: What need we any further testimony? For we ourselves have heard it from his own mouth.
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Luke 22

51 Amen, amen, I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever. 52 The Jews therefore said: Now we know that you have a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets: and you say: If any man keep my word, he shall not taste death for ever. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Whom do you make yourself? 54 Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 And you have not known him: but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him and do keep his word. 56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it and was glad. 57 The Jews therefore said to him: You are not yet fifty years old. And you have seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM. 59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
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John 8
 
Before the Council of Nicaea the issue of the divinity of Jesus was not settled, and the Council was heavily influenced by politics especially the emperor.

About Luke 22, all that supports is that Jesus is the Son of God, as was Adam, i.e. created by God.

About John 8, Jesus had a prehuman existance, but that doesn't make him the same as God (YHWH or El), also some translations capitalize "I AM" even though the origional greek wasn't, nor was it different from the common verb, it wasn't a reference to Exodus chapter 3 where YHWM or God refers to himself as I am that I am.
 
RGacky3 said:
Before the Council of Nicaea the issue of the divinity of Jesus was not settled, and the Council was heavily influenced by politics especially the emperor.
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Constantine's right hand man Eusbesius was an Arian sympathizer. Constantine knew the outcome would be an overwhelming rejection of the Arian philosophy that is the reason he wanted the council. He needed that controversy over so he could manage other issues in the region the Arians were causing problems. A smart politician knows the answers before he asks the question, this was a no brainer.

Not settled with who?? The Arians? and after Nicaea, was it settled for the myriad of Christian spin offs that followe? Is is settled today for Mormons and others today? How exactly was it not settled?

It was settled for Paul, Ignatius, Polycarp, Iraenius and many early Christian teachers and writers, they wrote about for 300 years prior to Nicaea.

RGacky3 said:
About Luke 22, all that supports is that Jesus is the Son of God, as was Adam, i.e. created by God.

About John 8, Jesus had a prehuman existance, but that doesn't make him the same as God (YHWH or El), also some translations capitalize "I AM" even though the origional greek wasn't, nor was it different from the common verb, it wasn't a reference to Exodus chapter 3 where YHWM or God refers to himself as I am that I am.
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Why then he Christ claiming to be the forgiver of sins, isn't that reserved only for God?
 
Not settled with who?? The Arians? and after Nicaea, was it settled for the myriad of Christian spin offs that followe? Is is settled today for Mormons and others today? How exactly was it not settled?
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It wasn't settled for the Christians as a whole ... Nor was it settled for Paul who wrote to the Corinthians that the above the Christ is God (post jesus returning to heaven), and who wrote to the Colossians that Jesus was the firstborn of creation.

Also many of those early Church leaders you write about didn't actually point to Jesus' actual divinity or him being YHWH or El, and they didn't write 300 years prior to Nicaea .... Because Jesus was still alive then ....

Why then he Christ claiming to be the forgiver of sins, isn't that reserved only for God?
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Because through his sacrifice sins were forgiven ... the perfect HUMAN (not divine) life of Jesus accounted for the perfect HUMAN life of Adam.
 
gilbertc1908 said:
Constantine's right hand man Eusbesius was an Arian sympathizer. Constantine knew the outcome would be an overwhelming rejection of the Arian philosophy that is the reason he wanted the council. He needed that controversy over so he could manage other issues in the region the Arians were causing problems. A smart politician knows the answers before he asks the question, this was a no brainer.

Not settled with who?? The Arians? and after Nicaea, was it settled for the myriad of Christian spin offs that followe? Is is settled today for Mormons and others today? How exactly was it not settled?

It was settled for Paul, Ignatius, Polycarp, Iraenius and many early Christian teachers and writers, they wrote about for 300 years prior to Nicaea.



Why then he Christ claiming to be the forgiver of sins, isn't that reserved only for God?
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He is God.
 
RGacky3 said:
It wasn't settled for the Christians as a whole ... Nor was it settled for Paul who wrote to the Corinthians that the above the Christ is God (post jesus returning to heaven), and who wrote to the Colossians that Jesus was the firstborn of creation.

Also many of those early Church leaders you write about didn't actually point to Jesus' actual divinity or him being YHWH or El, and they didn't write 300 years prior to Nicaea .... Because Jesus was still alive then ....
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My point was in the the 300 years between Christ and Nicaea all those writers in different cultures at different times write similar things. There is a history of theology long before Nicaea that holds with the divinty of Christ and the trinity, the trail is obvious. My point is that you need to define "Christians as a whole", and again with a 312-4 vote at Nicaea it is hard to argue that this was not the predominant position. By the way as soon as Constantine is dead the next emperor overturns the Edict of Milan because he is an Arian supporter.

Who are the writers within the Christian Fathers who deny Christ's divinity?



RGacky3 said:
Because through his sacrifice sins were forgiven ... the perfect HUMAN (not divine) life of Jesus accounted for the perfect HUMAN life of Adam.
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Did the Jewish Elders who sought to put Jesus to death do so because they believed he was claiming himself to be divine?
 
Enola said:
I get confused. Did God take human form as Jesus? Or was Jesus unique?
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It doesn't matter how many groups of non-existent beings they are. If you have 1 or 3 imaginary friends, you still have 0 real friends.
 
I'm a Unitarian Christian. I believe that God is a singular entity and that Jesus is an entity separate from God. IMO, the Trinity along with the Mary's elevation was a way for the Church and the Emporor Constantine (a pagan) to help the transition from paganism to Christianity. The Romans had many gods, and the Trinity is basically three gods and Mary has replaced the goddess. I don't believe in all these different gods. I believe that God is a singular entity. fun fact: John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were both Unitarians.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Let's leave the moderation to the professionals, folks.
 
My point was in the the 300 years between Christ and Nicaea all those writers in different cultures at different times write similar things. There is a history of theology long before Nicaea that holds with the divinty of Christ and the trinity, the trail is obvious. My point is that you need to define "Christians as a whole", and again with a 312-4 vote at Nicaea it is hard to argue that this was not the predominant position. By the way as soon as Constantine is dead the next emperor overturns the Edict of Milan because he is an Arian supporter.

Who are the writers within the Christian Fathers who deny Christ's divinity?
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In the first century, the divinity wasn't an issue at all, no one claimed it, and most of the early Church fathers didn't point to the actual divinity of Christ (i.e. him being God himself).

Did the Jewish Elders who sought to put Jesus to death do so because they believed he was claiming himself to be divine?
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No, btw, when we say divine we mean God himself, not "Gods Son."
 
Enola said:
I get confused. Did God take human form as Jesus? Or was Jesus unique?
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That's the main point of disagreement between Orthodox and Catholic Christianity.

There's no definitive answer. Only a subjective one. Or, more likely, a geographical one: What people believe in mostly depends on where they were born.
 
RGacky3 said:
About John 8, Jesus had a prehuman existance, but that doesn't make him the same as God (YHWH or El), also some translations capitalize "I AM" even though the origional greek wasn't, nor was it different from the common verb, it wasn't a reference to Exodus chapter 3 where YHWM or God refers to himself as I am that I am.
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Biblical Hebrew and Greek did not have lower case letters, so all the letters were originally capitalized.
 
Exactly, which is why is wrong to translate "I am" as somehow distinct.
 
I don't understand the Trinity, it is church doctrine. It is not clearly explained in the Bible.
 
American said:
I don't understand the Trinity, it is church doctrine. It is not clearly explained in the Bible.
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No, I don't believe it is.

I think you could regard it as orthodox canonical interpretation.

I could be wrong, I wouldn't claim to be a theologian.
 
It's whatever you want them to be. Non are real anyway.
 
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