Do unbelievers deserve to burn in hell?

Wake said:

If you don't believe in Christianity or any religion for that matter, then undoubtedly you won't believe in Hell.

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Therefore any faith will keep from there

Tucker Case said:

Even if you are religious, a discussion on who does or does not deserve to go to hell is moot because it's all up to God. Being religious means that you believe that God can do whatever the hell he wants for whatever damned reason he wants (pun fully intended).

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The Bible is God's Word. If you don't consider the Bible, how can you be Christian/Jewish?

The Bible is the authority of God's Word. By reading the Bible, according to our religion, we can discern what are sins and what Hell is. Now, said Christians can believe it or not; it'll be up to them what may or may not happen after death.

There are precepts in the Bible, and they make clear that sin is the way to Hell. According to the Book of Acts, even if you rarely sin you would still go to Hell without water baptism and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

Make of it what you will.

reefedjib said:

What I meant by that is that there will be unexplainable evidence, therefore it is spiritual.

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Why do you think unexplainable evidence is automatically spiritual? (not to mention that saying it's definitely spiritual means it's definitely explainable making it something other than unexplainable)

then, going back to your previous position, it still does nothing to cause the step necessary to make unbelievers turn toward god. the only goal god could have with causing disaster of this sort would be to cause those who have already turned toward him to remain turned toward him. And there are a bunch of more intelligent ways to go about doing that than causing massive disasters.

I'm curious to how a "sin" temporal in nature, requires eternal punishment? Doesn't seem fair or righteous?

Tucker Case said:

Why do you think unexplainable evidence is automatically spiritual? (not to mention that saying it's definitely spiritual means it's definitely explainable making it something other than unexplainable)

then, going back to your previous position, it still does nothing to cause the step necessary to make unbelievers turn toward god. the only goal god could have with causing disaster of this sort would be to cause those who have already turned toward him to remain turned toward him. And there are a bunch of more intelligent ways to go about doing that than causing massive disasters.

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I will call them clearly spiritual to me then. Many others will find them to be spiritual events. Many others will not. They will not call them spiritual events. Are you done playing word games?

God cannot make you be a believer, you have to use your freewill to decide to have faith. Bad **** makes us look for the positive. The coming events will cause some people to look for and find God in their hearts.

I'm dissapointed in three people.

Wake said:

The Bible is God's Word. If you don't consider the Bible, how can you be Christian/Jewish?

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Is that a trick question? One simply has to believe in the teachings of Christ to be Christian. The bible is not now, nor has it ever been simply a collection of the teachigns of Christ.

Not one part is written by him, in fact. Much of it was written by Paul, and there's really no reason to believe he actually knew what he was talking about. He couldn't even quote Christ since he never even met him.

The Bible is the authority of God's Word.

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Some people think so. Some realize that the bible didn't even exist as a single collection until well after Jesus had already died and thus only look at the portions of th ebible that actually come form Jesus (albeit indirectly)

By reading the Bible, according to our religion, we can discern what are sins and what Hell is. Now, said Christians can believe it or not; it'll be up to them what may or may not happen after death.

There are precepts in the Bible, and they make clear that sin is the way to Hell. According to the Book of Acts, even if you rarely sin you would still go to Hell without water baptism and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

Make of it what you will.

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Does it not also state in the bible that man cannot know the mind of God? Therefore, in order to be a Christian, one must first and foremost realize that god can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, for whatever reason he wants. God is not limited by man's comprehension of the bible.

Wake said:

The Bible is the authority of God's Word.

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I do not know about "authority", but it is God's Word. So is the Koran. I think it has something to say about Hell and the end times, as well.

MadLib said:

Obviously, with crimes such as murder, rape, and pedophilia, most Christians would agree that the sinners got what was coming for them. But how about unbelievers? If a person is moral and ethical in every other way, many Christians would say that they would still burn. The question is: do they deserve it? Is the "crime" in not believing what is normally just a different culture rightfully punishable by eternal torture?

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What a ridiculously inane question. It reminds me of that hackneyed comment about some past time wanting their 'question' back. I am only nominally Christian, but the quote "many Christians would say that they would still burn" is a very cheap shot at a religion as it is observed today.

I understand that DP is not at the crest of intellectual discourse, yet still there should be some standards. I suppose free speech allows oneself to make an ass of the same.

Jredbaron96 said:

I'm dissapointed in three people.

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father, son and serial killer?

Tucker Case said:

Is that a trick question? One simply has to believe in the teachings of Christ to be Christian. The bible is not now, nor has it ever been simply a collection of the teachigns of Christ.

Not one part is written by him, in fact. Much of it was written by Paul, and there's really no reason to believe he actually knew what he was talking about. He couldn't even quote Christ since he never even met him.



Some people think so. Some realize that the bible didn't even exist as a single collection until well after Jesus had already died and thus only look at the portions of th ebible that actually come form Jesus (albeit indirectly)



Does it not also state in the bible that man cannot know the mind of God? Therefore, in order to be a Christian, one must first and foremost realize that god can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, for whatever reason he wants. God is not limited by man's comprehension of the bible.

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Some think that you just have to read the red text to be a Christian. By doing that you ignore the existence of Godly men that have God's Spirit dwelling within them.

The Bible does not have to be written by God Himself. Men filled with God's Spirit have done that.

It is true God is omnipotent and omniscient. However, God is just and loving, and wouldn't send people to Hell just because He feels like it. That is why men filled with His Spirit have written down God's precepts.

reefedjib said:

I will call them clearly spiritual to me then. Many others will find them to be spiritual events. Many others will not. They will not call them spiritual events. Are you done playing word games?

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I'm not playing word games, I've been trying to get an answer from you that didn't contradict itself. Perhaps you've been playing word game sin order to avoid looking at your previous statements critically, but I'm not going to fall for that nonsense.

Now look at what you said above. Think about how stupid God would have to be to bring disaster down upon the Earth in order to get unbelievers to turn toward him (which was your previous claim). Such disasters would have no effect on non-believers at all.

It'd be far more likely that it causes some believers to turn away from God when one actualy applies logic to the situation.

I'm a firm believer that if God does exist, he's not an idiot who would do something so stupid just because some people didn't believe in him.

God cannot make you be a believer, you have to use your freewill to decide to have faith.

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And your hypothesis is that God's too stupid to come up with a better approach than mass disaster to lead people down the path of Faith? I'm not even omniscient and I can come up with at least 40 or so better approaches that would work way better.

Bad **** makes us look for the positive.

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And if God causes such bad **** just to get some attention, he's certainly not a positive.

The coming events will cause some people to look for and find God in their hearts.

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Possibly, but I'd be willing to bet that an approach like the one you have envisioned would also lead to converts the other direction too.

I personally think that any being capable of creating the universe wouldn't be such an idiot as to use worldwide disaster as a way to get some attention.

The premise of religion is that God defines morality. The weight of any action is determined by His standards. Because His Wisdom is greater than (an understatement) than man's wisdom and intellectual tools. So if anybody would know why one action is worse than another, it's Him.

I'm not an expert or authority, and I could be wrong. Here's my spiel:

From what I've learned about my faith (Islam), it's not the sin as much as it is the fact as it's disobedience towards Him. It's a complete lack of gratitude toward a God who has provided you with innumerable blessings. Redemption is not solely refraining from sin, but seeking to be close to Him and show gratitude. God can forgive sins where you harm or affect yourself (not praying, being greedy, neglecting your duties..etc) when you return to Him, be re-affirming His attributes and showing gratitude.
Then there are sins that you commit against others. God cannot forgive you until the person forgives you or is justified during this life or in the afterlife (Day of Accountability/Judgment).
Finally, there's disbelief....it's a transgression directly against God. A complete lack of gratitude. Ultimate disrespect. This is really between you and God to be honest.

There's judgment on Earth and there's His judgment. As humans, we only judge by what's apparent and so we can easily say "so and so is a disbeliever because his/her God has different attributes or he/she lacks faith" because the person make outward claims..etc.

Religion makes it apparent that no one knows what's in a person's heart. No matter how much you say so and so is going to Hell/Heaven. It's ultimately up to God to decide. Disbelievers are people who clearly know the truth but deny it. Again, no one knows what's in a person's heart/mind and how clear they see understand/view life. Although today, most of us would not fit into that category because everything is so fuzzy. We are limited by our access to accurate knowledge and the mere time it takes to sift through all the knowledge there is to make an accurate decision about reality.

Belief in God is mainly belief in His Attributes. He is Most Just. There's this level of trust that He will look at each person according to their circumstance and make His decision.

Clandestine said:

The premise of religion is that God defines morality. The weight of any action is determined by His standards. Because His Wisdom is greater than (an understatement) than man's wisdom and intellectual tools. So if anybody would know why one action is worse than another, it's Him.

I'm not an expert or authority, and I could be wrong. Here's my spiel:

From what I've learned about my faith (Islam), it's not the sin as much as it is the fact as it's disobedience towards Him. It's a complete lack of gratitude toward a God who has provided you with innumerable blessings. Redemption is not solely refraining from sin, but seeking to be close to Him and show gratitude. God can forgive sins where you harm or affect yourself (not praying, being greedy, neglecting your duties..etc) when you return to Him, be re-affirming His attributes and showing gratitude.
Then there are sins that you commit against others. God cannot forgive you until the person forgives you or is justified during this life or in the afterlife (Day of Accountability/Judgment).
Finally, there's disbelief....it's a transgression directly against God. A complete lack of gratitude. Ultimate disrespect. This is really between you and God to be honest.

There's judgment on Earth and there's His judgment. As humans, we only judge by what's apparent and so we can easily say "so and so is a disbeliever because his/her God has different attributes or he/she lacks faith" because the person make outward claims..etc.

Religion makes it apparent that no one knows what's in a person's heart. No matter how much you say so and so is going to Hell/Heaven. It's ultimately up to God to decide. Disbelievers are people who clearly know the truth but deny it. Again, no one knows what's in a person's heart/mind and how clear they see understand/view life. Although today, most of us would not fit into that category because everything is so fuzzy. We are limited by our access to accurate knowledge and the mere time it takes to sift through all the knowledge there is to make an accurate decision about reality.

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To add to this, the first sin was rebellion. That rebellious nature that man has against God is the same one Lucifer had against God.

Wake said:

Some think that you just have to read the red text to be a Christian. By doing that you ignore the existence of Godly men that have God's Spirit dwelling within them.

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Key words: Some think.

Some don't. :shrug:

The Bible does not have to be written by God Himself. Men filled with God's Spirit have done that.

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True, but according to the bible, NO man can know the mind of God,. Not even those filled with God's spirit.

However, God is just and loving, and wouldn't send people to Hell just because He feels like it.

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Do you not think that it is arrogant and sinful of you to claim to know the mind of God? How do you know what God would or would not do? According to the bible itself, you don't.

And did you not realize that every person who is sent to hell is sent there simply because god feels like it. He has the power to not send them to hell. He chooses to send them there because he feels like it. He may feels like sending murders to hell, or homosexuals, or people with blue eyes.

Who are we to judge God's judgments?

That is why men filled with His Spirit have written down God's precepts.

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And one of those things they wrote down was that it is impossible for something as simple as man to know the mind of God. :shrug:

Tucker Case said:

Key words: Some think.

Some don't. :shrug:



True, but according to the bible, NO man can know the mind of God,. Not even those filled with God's spirit.



Do you not think that it is arrogant and sinful of you to claim to know the mind of God? How do you know what God would or would not do? According to the bible itself, you don't.

And did you not realize that every person who is sent to hell is sent there simply because god feels like it. He has the power to not send them to hell. He chooses to send them there because he feels like it. He may feels like sending murders to hell, or homosexuals, or people with blue eyes.

Who are we to judge God's judgments?



And one of those things they wrote down was that it is impossible for something as simple as man to know the mind of God. :shrug:

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Those men do not need to know the mind of God. A God that can be understood is no God. Those filled with the Holy Ghost do have more of an understanding with God; there are multiple gifts of the Holy Spirit, from prophecy to speaking in tongues.

The Bible states the God is merciful and just. And no, I have not claimed to "know the mind of God," but to understand through the Word of God that He is merciful and just, as well as loving.

God has precepts. In the Word of God it is listed what sins are and aren't. Religion is a matter of faith, so it is your decision to believe the Word of God or not.

Not even the angels "know the mind of God," as it is said in the Bible. Neither do they know when the Rapture will occur.

If you don't consider the Word of God, you're left to consider the words of people who refuse it, as an interpretation of Christianity.

Tucker Case said:

I'm not playing word games, I've been trying to get an answer from you that didn't contradict itself. Perhaps you've been playing word game sin order to avoid looking at your previous statements critically, but I'm not going to fall for that nonsense.

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Whatever, I have made no contradictory statements.

Tucker Case said:

Now look at what you said above. Think about how stupid God would have to be to bring disaster down upon the Earth in order to get unbelievers to turn toward him (which was your previous claim). Such disasters would have no effect on non-believers at all.

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That is my primary claim and I have not retracted it.

You said it yourself below, some disbelievers will find their way to faith and some will go in the opposite direction. I did not say that all disbelievers will turn to God.

Tucker Case said:

I'm a firm believer that if God does exist, he's not an idiot who would do something so stupid just because some people didn't believe in him.

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If Creation is cycling back to God, and all this is going to be over and lapse back into the dormancy of the potential for creation (Involution and Evolution), then te world must be destroyed. Along the way, God wants as many of us as possible to be saved by him. The only way to exit this era of disbelief is to demonstrate spiritual energies.

Tucker Case said:

And your hypothesis is that God's too stupid to come up with a better approach than mass disaster to lead people down the path of Faith? I'm not even omniscient and I can come up with at least 40 or so better approaches that would work way better.

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Negative energy leads to positive energy and positive energy leads to negative energy. Some disbelievers are going to be shocked into belief, by these negative and positive events coming.

Tucker Case said:

And if God causes such bad **** just to get some attention, he's certainly not a positive.

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God is both positive and negative energy. Yin and Yang. Light and Darkness.

Wake said:

And no, I have not claimed to "know the mind of God," but to understand through the Word of God that He is merciful and just, as well as loving.

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That's false. You clearly stated that God would not do something, which you could only state if you were claiming to know the mind of God. You might believe that God wouldn't do something, but in order to actually claim he definitely wouldn't do it you would have to also be claiming to know the mind of God.

God has precepts. In the Word of God it is listed what sins are and aren't. Religion is a matter of faith, so it is your decision to believe the Word of God or not.

Not even the angels "know the mind of God," as it is said in the Bible. Neither do they know when the Rapture will occur.

If you don't consider the Word of God, you're left to consider the words of people who refuse it, as an interpretation of Christianity.

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Which goes back to what I said before: "in order to be a Christian, one must first and foremost realize that god can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, for whatever reason he wants. God is not limited by man's comprehension of the bible."

That statement is based entirely on the Word of God.

I certainly deserve to burn in hell. When it comes christianity.. I pray it aint true.

Djoop said:

I certainly deserve to burn in hell. When it comes christianity.. I pray it aint true.

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The Koran also has the end times, as does Hinduism (10th incarnation of Vishnu, Kalki, comes to end the "Phase" of Kali - disbelief).

Not to mention the Mayan caledar

Tucker Case said:

That's false. You clearly stated that God would not do something, which you could only state if you were claiming to know the mind of God. You might believe that God wouldn't do something, but in order to actually claim he definitely wouldn't do it you would have to also be claiming to know the mind of God.





Which goes back to what I said before: "in order to be a Christian, one must first and foremost realize that god can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, for whatever reason he wants. God is not limited by man's comprehension of the bible."

That statement is based entirely on the Word of God.

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I suppose if God were omniscient He could do anything he pleases. However, again, the Word of God states that God is loving and merciful.

If you don't believe in the Word of God, how can you say what Christianity is?

If you are a secular atheist, how are you to understand God if you won't consider the Bible? You seem to refuse to accept the possibility of God and sin existing, or the notion of Holy Ghost-filled men and women, as well as the Holy Ghost itself.

Djoop said:

I certainly deserve to burn in hell. When it comes christianity.. I pray it aint true.

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I see atheists as people who secretly pray they don't turn out to be wrong.

Tucker Case said:

That's false. You clearly stated that God would not do something, which you could only state if you were claiming to know the mind of God. You might believe that God wouldn't do something, but in order to actually claim he definitely wouldn't do it you would have to also be claiming to know the mind of God.





Which goes back to what I said before: "in order to be a Christian, one must first and foremost realize that god can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, for whatever reason he wants. God is not limited by man's comprehension of the bible."

That statement is based entirely on the Word of God.

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God can do whatever he wants, but he doesn't break promises either. He never contradicts himself. So through what he tells us about himself, we can start to understand who he is and continue to learn for infinity. You paint a picture of God like a parent that orders their children to be nice to others and then turn around and punch their kid in the face just because they can.

Wake said:

I see atheists as people who secretly pray they don't turn out to be wrong.

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I'm not an atheist anymore. I've developped my personal belief system, and I'm easily offended.

Wake said:

I see atheists as people who secretly pray they don't turn out to be wrong.

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I cannot speak for others, but I assume I am representative -and from various discussions I feel this is a safe assumption. We see our selves differently than what you see us as, and are probably in a better position to judge ourselves than you are..