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J. Average Christian

flaxenmoon said:
I feel for you Goshin, because my husband is a Christian and is what I feel is a good Christian. He's kind to others, empathic, etc. He loves his religion and worries for my soul because I don't feel the same way.

I think you are saying that you are one of those wonderful Christians than makes me curious and forgive the religion.

But you have to also understand that the majority of Christians I know are bigoted, crazy, judgemental a$$holes.

For instance, I just had a "super christian" client of mine tell me that she was better than everyone else because she was Christian. Really. She said that. She said that she thought that most people were below her because she was flying high with her Lord.

My brother and I would both hide from people who approached our business if they had a Christian fish on their car. Why? Because we knew they would be the biggest pains in the a$$ people ever, and we didn't care to have their money.

I've seen people hurt deeply over what "Good Christians" say. Good Christians are the people who ACT like Good Christians.
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I think a point worth mentioning that sort of goes off of these is the fact that I don't think many of the "mean" Christians or atheists that are the topic of discussion in this thread actually understand how rude their comments are. For example, telling someone "I'll pray for you" because they are doing something you don't approve of is mildly rude and suggests that you aren't tolerant of other people's decisions. Similarly, telling a religious person that religion is inherently opposed to critical thought is the same thing.

Both people are just communicating their version of reality to people who do not accept their reality. Consequently, it's almost impossible to tell such Christians that their behavior is rude and it's almost impossible to tell such atheists that they're a being rude because in both of their minds they're just calling it how they see it (while disregarding how other people see it).
 
theplaydrive said:
I think a point worth mentioning that sort of goes off of these is the fact that I don't think many of the "mean" Christians or atheists that are the topic of discussion in this thread actually understand how rude their comments are. For example, telling someone "I'll pray for you" because they are doing something you don't approve of is mildly rude and suggests that you aren't tolerant of other people's decisions. Similarly, telling a religious person that religion is inherently opposed to critical thought is the same thing.

Both people are just communicating their version of reality to people who do not accept their reality. Consequently, it's almost impossible to tell such Christians that their behavior is rude and it's almost impossible to tell such atheists that they're a being rude because in both of their minds they're just calling it how they see it (while disregarding how other people see it).
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Sure, there is mean everybody. I guess since "Christians" are the majority, they do the majority of offending. But notice, I said that in quotes. The REAL CHRISTIANS I know are not like that at all. They might tell me that they worry that I won't join them in Heaven, but they don't tell me I'm doomed to hell. It's a different approach completely. One is Christlike, and one is PlayingGodLike.
 
flaxenmoon said:
Sure, there is mean everybody. I guess since "Christians" are the majority, they do the majority of offending. But notice, I said that in quotes. The REAL CHRISTIANS I know are not like that at all. They might tell me that they worry that I won't join them in Heaven, but they don't tell me I'm doomed to hell. It's a different approach completely. One is Christlike, and one is PlayingGodLike.
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I want to make it clear that I wasn't criticizing your post, but merely adding to it. However, in this post, I can't say that I agree with how you separate "real" Christians and presumably "fake" Christians. Acting Christlike isn't the only requirement of being a Christian. Moreover, Jesus definitely "judged" people and told them the "error of their ways". I think when some Christians say the things that they do, they are acting Christlike in that sense.
 
flaxenmoon said:
I feel for you Goshin, because my husband is a Christian and is what I feel is a good Christian. He's kind to others, empathic, etc. He loves his religion and worries for my soul because I don't feel the same way.

I think you are saying that you are one of those wonderful Christians than makes me curious and forgive the religion.

But you have to also understand that the majority of Christians I know are bigoted, crazy, judgemental a$$holes.

For instance, I just had a "super christian" client of mine tell me that she was better than everyone else because she was Christian. Really. She said that. She said that she thought that most people were below her because she was flying high with her Lord.
.
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If I'd heard that woman make that statement, I would take exception and probably feel compelled to school her in Basic Theology 101: 1. We are all sinners. 2. Christians are also sinners, whose primary distinction is being washed clean of sin by the gift of God's grace and not their own merit; Christians are to exalt God, not Self.... self-rightousness is one of the worst sins for a Christian. 3. But for the grace of God we could be as bad as the worst man in prison, and that's something to be humbly thankful for rather than prideful about... 4: "There is none rightous, no not one..." 5. "He who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him". 6. We are to be as beggars, telling another begger where to obtain bread... not as judges and executioners.

That sort of attitude angers me, it is uncalled for and hypocritical. I would tell her she needed to carefully examine her own salvation and make sure her faith was true, because Jesus came to save that which was lost.... not Pharisees who already think they're perfect.
 
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theplaydrive said:
I want to make it clear that I wasn't criticizing your post, but merely adding to it. However, in this post, I can't say that I agree with how you separate "real" Christians and presumably "fake" Christians. Acting Christlike isn't the only requirement of being a Christian. Moreover, Jesus definitely "judged" people and told them the "error of their ways". I think when some Christians say the things that they do, they are acting Christlike in that sense.
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And I will respectfully disagree. Jesus got pissed off at people but he left the judging to his "Father". He read them the riot act, but he didn't damn people to hell.
 
Goshin said:
If I'd heard that woman make that statement, I would take exception and probably feel compelled to school her in Basic Theology 101: 1. We are all sinners. 2. Christians are also sinners, whose primary distinction is being washed clean of sin by the gift of God's grace and not their own merit; Christians are to exalt God, not Self.... self-rightousness is one of the worst sins for a Christian. 3. But for the grace of God we could be as bad as the worst man in prison, and that's something to be humbly thankful for rather than prideful about... 4: "There is none rightous, no not one..." 5. "He who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him". 6. We are to be as beggars, telling another begger where to obtain bread... not as judges and executioners.

That sort of attitude angers me, it is uncalled for and hypocritical. I would tell her she needed to carefully examine her own salvation and make sure her faith was true, because Jesus came to save that which was lost.... not Pharisees who already think they're perfect.
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And I obviously agree.
 
flaxenmoon said:
And I will respectfully disagree. Jesus got pissed off at people but he left the judging to his "Father". He read them the riot act, but he didn't damn people to hell.
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Meh, it still doesn't make them "fake Christians". It just makes them Christians with a certain interpretation of the Bible.
 
theplaydrive said:
Meh, it still doesn't make them "fake Christians". It just makes them Christians with a certain interpretation of the Bible.
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Fake Christians was your word, not mine.
 
flaxenmoon said:
Fake Christians was your word, not mine.
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You said that they weren't "real Christians". If they aren't real Christians, what are they? Fake is the word that comes to mind.
 
theplaydrive said:
You said, "prominent atheists like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennet, and Christopher Hitchens... They have battled back against the misinformation, not with more lies and hate, but with sober reason and evidence."

Well, Harris thinks that Western Civilization is at "war with Islam" and that Islam is dangerous in and of itself in spite of the fact that 99% of Muslims are nonviolent - so that's misrepresentation and lies. Dawkins thinks that religious instruction is child abuse and might be worse than child sexual abuse which is misinformation and a lie. Hitchens generalized religion by saying it is "violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children" which ignores a significant portion of the religious population that meets none of those criteria - so more misrepresentation. Dennett appears to be the only one with "somber reason and evidence" alone.

Those comments aren't "sober reason" or "evidence". Moreover, all of these things contradict your claim that theists who believe atheists to be "anti-religious" are just spreading misinformation since all of these things are, in fact, anti-religious. They also contradict your claim that believing atheists lack compassion and have no moral values is purely misinformation because it's certainly easy to understand why religious people would perceive that as truth after hearing them.

Sam Harris (author) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Religion's Real Child Abuse - Richard Dawkins - RichardDawkins.net
God Is Not Great - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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I think more important than this is that these people are simply ignorant and silly. They are the kind of people that C.S Lewis and G.K Chesterton could have eaten alive, let alone the Angelic Doctor or such like. I actually quite like them, because their arguments, a mix of scientism and slightly more intellectual versions of popular irreligious tropes like 'we don't need fairy tales any more', are easy to defeat and they can be fun to play with. Compared to the sheer tedious idiocy of the post-modernists they are a welcome, and hilarious, change.
 
Goshin said:
There seems to be a strange viewpoint common among some on DP, that the average Christian is this raving lunatic who hates homosexuals and atheists, wants to turn America into a theocracy, and fairly drools at the idea of imposing their ways on everyone by force. This view is very politically-oriented and extremely biased.
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I think you have (unintentionally) misrepresented the viewpoint of some DPers'. I think most realize that most christians do not hate homosexuals. They (and I) believe that

1) christians are a large majority of those who do hate homosexuals, and that they use their religion to justify their homophobia.
2) many Christian churches devote a lot of effort (and their congregations money) to change our laws based on that hatred
3) Christian organizations make up a large share of those organizations that promote hatred of homosexuals
4) That without the support of homophobic christians and christian organizations, the opposition to equal rights for LGBT would be nearly non-existent

***Please note: "a large majority of those who hate homosexuals" does not equal "a large majority of christians" (a point which seems to escape some. I'd say more, but it's not allowed in this forum)
 
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cpwill said:
well certainly I agree on that last point - but i think you may have confirmation bias in your observations about church giving. my home church, for example, organized a rotation of about 60 different groups to go help after Hurricane Katrina, sends an annual mission trip to help build schools in guatemala, and supports a couple of soup kitchens and a women's shelter in our local area; as well as having an "open ended" agreement with the teachers in some of our poorer school districts - if they bring us a request for school supplies that a child needs but can't afford, we will purchase it no questions asked. My wife's home church has been yes involved in trying to offer young poor pregnant women alternatives, and is also heavily involved in supporting anti-human-trafficking groups, as well as local charity. Most homeless shelters are supported by churches.
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That's exactly what I was talking about... so many churches are involved with anti abortion causes, and that's what they are known for more than anything else. Look at the political discourse in this country. Christians vote GOP, and GOP is anti abortion and anti gay... but when do they ever favor the poor man over the rich man? Honestly, the GOP has spent more time trying to make life more comfortable for the rich and for Wall St than average people, and I am not ****ing communist for saying so.

When has the GOP helped the poor or sponsored a bill to help children in poverty? What you see most of the time, is people making callus statements about poor people on the far right... and about starving kids, and for ****s sakes, I even got into with Goshin, the OP of this very thread, for making some statements about kids not looking skinny enough to be starving.

I can't sit here and buy this garbage that people like me are bigoted and too blind to see the good in your religion. I am not bigoted towards Christians, but I seriously don't understand why you guys cannot understand why people have the attitude they do towards the religoius. I simply don't respect somebody because they are Christian. I don't automatically think somebody is a good person because they declare themselves a Christian. I look at people as individuals. Some atheists are good people and some Christians are good people. Some Christians actually do more for their community than they do in trying to prevent abortions and gay marriages or even argue in favor of the poor and destitute on DP, but IMO, they are few and far between.
 
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I'm going to be honest.

I don't like Christians. I don't hate them, but I don't like them. Christianity is a wonderful religion, filled with beautiful stories and messages, but all that seems to be lost by most Christians who actually practice the religion. They turn it into a thing of idiocy where they justify their every prejudice and bias with their own interpretation of the word of God, find other people who are like them, and form denominations of haters. Then they spend their lives teaching their children their dogma of hate, so that it gets passed down generation after generation and they can then argue that their tradition of hatred needs to be protected from persecution or the moral fabric of society would unravel and Satan himself would come rolling in and bring about the downfall of the world.
 
CriticalThought said:
I'm going to be honest.

I don't like Christians. I don't hate them, but I don't like them. Christianity is a wonderful religion, filled with beautiful stories and messages, but all that seems to be lost by most Christians who actually practice the religion. They turn it into a thing of idiocy where they justify their every prejudice and bias with their own interpretation of the word of God, find other people who are like them, and form denominations of haters. Then they spend their lives teaching their children their dogma of hate, so that it gets passed down generation after generation and they can then argue that their tradition of hatred needs to be protected from persecution or the moral fabric of society would unravel and Satan himself would come rolling in and bring about the downfall of the world.
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Meh, "most" depends on where you live. Where I'm from, most Christians don't fit this definition. Hate doesn't really factor into their ideology.
 
Doesn't this all depend on the definition of hate. No offense, but most of those talking about hate here, like such people in general, neither really know the Christian reasons for their position, nor examine their own assumptions. Some might think it not particularly tolerant and open to describe all opposition to homosexuality or what have you as simply 'hate', and in pseudo-pyscho-analytical terms like homophobic.
 
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Wessexman said:
Doesn't this all depend on the definition of hate. No offense, but most of those talking about hate here, like such people in general, neither really know the Christian reasons for their position, nor examine their own assumptions. Some might think it not particularly tolerant and open to describe all opposition to homosexuality or what have you as simply 'hate', and in pseudo-pyscho-analytical terms like homophobic.
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Would you allow a homosexual to be a teacher to your children?

Thank you.
 
I've known some gays who would be far more trustworthy around children that some non-gay people. How people are around children is an individaual thing. Aren't we all aware (in these times) that "so called"...straight males are just as likely to be the molester? Even occasionally women can be. Schools and parents should always be vigilent. It's unfortunate, but that's the world we live in now.

And being Christian doesn't mean a person is immune to all of this either. Imagine our shock when a former youth pastor in our local area turned himself in, as having molested his own adopted children. We thought we knew the man!
 
theplaydrive said:
Meh, "most" depends on where you live. Where I'm from, most Christians don't fit this definition. Hate doesn't really factor into their ideology.
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Historically Christianity has put itself in the middle of controversial issues.... before abortion and homosexuality, many religious leaders in America were preoccupied with using the bible to condone slavery and ownership of people. If Christianity didn't put itself in the middle of controversial issues and take sides, I think they'd get a lot more respect. Not to mention that by getting involved in controversial issues, they risk being on the wrong side of history and that's been the case many times.
 
SheWolf said:
Historically Christianity has put itself in the middle of controversial issues.... before abortion and homosexuality, many religious leaders in America were preoccupied with using the bible to condone slavery and ownership of people. If Christianity didn't put itself in the middle of controversial issues and take sides, I think they'd get a lot more respect. Not to mention that by getting involved in controversial issues, they risk being on the wrong side of history and that's been the case many times.
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Yeah, but a lot of people used Christianity to argue against slavery and ownership of people as well. I understand why people are hostile to Christianity, but I consider generalizations about it to be illogical. As I said, it really does depend on where you are from. There are plenty of Christians who support gay marriage and who are pro-Choice. It's not religion in and of itself, it's how people use religion and your opinion of those people depends on where you are.
 
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