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Adultery and the Bible: The Double Standard

scourge99

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Stemming from a discussion about adultery I've come to believe adultery as portrayed in the Bible is different from what a modern day interpretation of adultery would be. That is, in the Bible a woman is forbidden to have sex with anyone but her husband once she is married or engaged but it is tolerable for a man to use prostitutes or have sex with single woman outside of marriage. However, today we consider adultery to be any form of non consensual sexual relations outside of a marriage.

Links:
page 210, Bottom right Women's Bible Commentary - Google Book Search

Genesis 38:12-23
Joshua 2:1-7
1 Kings 3:16-27

some hippy love site : Biblical Discussion of Adultery

Note: Now before some go on a spree quoting all the spots in the Bible where adultery is mentioned I'd like to ask why you believe adultery as we have defined it in modern times means the same as it did back then.
 
Note: Now before some go on a spree quoting all the spots in the Bible where adultery is mentioned I'd like to ask why you believe adultery as we have defined it in modern times means the same as it did back then.

As far as Christianity is concerned. We Don't. We follow the NT teachings. The NT teaches that for a man to even look upon a woman is adultery. The NT as far as I have seen never demanded a person to have only one wife. But different from the OT there are no verses teaching or supporting polygamy either.

Paul did call for church leaders to have only a single wife to set an example for the church. Thus on things like this the Christian church has built its modern view concerning adultery.

Moe
 
As far as Christianity is concerned. We Don't. We follow the NT teachings.
this is not true. If you didn't follow or reference anything from the OT then it would not be included. Even Jesus acknowledged that he was not changing the old laws.

The NT teaches that for a man to even look upon a woman is adultery.
I presume you are referring to Matthew. And I already have reasoning to suggest that this interpretation of yours is false:

After reading Matthew which of the following does Jesus' teaching apply to?

A)only applies to married men looking at unmarried woman

B) unmarried men looking at unmarried woman

C) married men looking at other married woman

D) all of the above

E) just the ones to make your argument? (Some consider this option trolling)

It says none of the above. Jesus is telling the people that desire can be bad. This is NOT a passage about creating law forbidding adultery as adultery is already presumed wrong.
http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/23263/eVerseID/23263


The point of the passage isn't about discussing the morality of adultery. Adultery (whatever it is defined as) is already known to be immoral. For example, if I use marbles to show you how to do simple arithmetic then our discussion isn't about marbles even though marbles are involved, likewise, Jesus' use of the adultery isn't a discussion about adultery. There is a deeper meaning.

Thus, the question remains, how was adultery defined?




The NT as far as I have seen never demanded a person to have only one wife. But different from the OT there are no verses teaching or supporting polygamy either.
in other words it is silent on the matter thus it is likely the old rules of taken multiple wives is permitable.

Paul did call for church leaders to have only a single wife to set an example for the church. Thus on things like this the Christian church has built its modern view concerning adultery.
Yes, the leaders only. I don't believe its understood why this was asked. We should look into it.

Also, even if we determine a man should not have multiple wives this does not retrict men from using prostitutes or having sex with unmarried woman.
 
this is not true. If you didn't follow or reference anything from the OT then it would not be included. Even Jesus acknowledged that he was not changing the old laws.

I presume you are referring to Matthew. And I already have reasoning to suggest that this interpretation of yours is false:

After reading Matthew which of the following does Jesus' teaching apply to?

A)only applies to married men looking at unmarried woman

B) unmarried men looking at unmarried woman

C) married men looking at other married woman

D) all of the above

E) just the ones to make your argument? (Some consider this option trolling)

Your not trolling and it is a valid honest opinion in your case.

The verse states,

Mt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience so they knew full well what he was saying concerning adultery. You have mixed fornication and adultery together. Even in the NT there is a difference between adultery and fornication. Fornication even in the OT is not punishable by death for either the man or the woman. Basically if they are caught then the man must marry her. A little more to it than that I only wish show that the point is neither was to be put to death.

Your misunderstanding here stems from the OT laws. You are looking only at the adultery laws and not taking into consideration the laws regarding fornication and prostitution. You seem to be under the impression that Jewish males were permitted a sexual do as they please freedom. Such was not the case. under the laws there was to be no sexual relations period outside of marriage. Nor was prostitution permitted as some have suggested.

Le 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.

Thus we see that fornication was not permitted nor was prostitution even in the Old Testament. So where was the Jewish male supposed to go for sex? His wife. But because of a polygamous society the male was permitted to have sex with his other wives. These #2 #3 etc wives did not have the same status as the first wife. The first wife was a special privileged status in the family.

Also you are misunderstanding another verse that you mention.
Even Jesus acknowledged that he was not changing the old laws.

You are referring to this verse here.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Many think that the law is the Ten Commandants but this not the case. The Mosaic law actually consists of 613 equally binding commandments. This includes the sacrifices. Now According to Jesus words here not even one letter of the law could disregarded until all be fulfilled . That is the key part of understanding what his intended meaning was here. In Luke we find,

Lu 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Thus now we see that what he actually meant by fulfillment. It is for this reason that no Christian is bound by any law of the Old Testament unless that law is re-taught in the NT. Such as the original Ten Commandments. Only 9 are re-taught in the NT as still binding today. The exception being the 4th commandment Jewish Sabbath.

Our Apostles were also granted the authority to add or remove commandments and interpret these and any other commandments as they saw fit in establishing and regulating the the church.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

So regardless of any OT teachings regarding the laws concerning adultery or any other matter we as Christians do not recognize their authority. We respect the OT. We believe there is much knowledge and information in the OT but none of it is binding upon us. Instead we recognize the authority of Jesus and the NT Apostles we believe he appointed. And our apostles set the example of one wife only with no fornication or prostitution permitted under any circumstances. Thus to us any sex committed by a married individual regardless of gender is considered adultery.



Moe
 
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Stemming from a discussion about adultery I've come to believe adultery as portrayed in the Bible is different from what a modern day interpretation of adultery would be. That is, in the Bible a woman is forbidden to have sex with anyone but her husband once she is married or engaged but it is tolerable for a man to use prostitutes or have sex with single woman outside of marriage. However, today we consider adultery to be any form of non consensual sexual relations outside of a marriage.

Links:
page 210, Bottom right Women's Bible Commentary - Google Book Search

Genesis 38:12-23
Joshua 2:1-7
1 Kings 3:16-27

some hippy love site : Biblical Discussion of Adultery

Note: Now before some go on a spree quoting all the spots in the Bible where adultery is mentioned I'd like to ask why you believe adultery as we have defined it in modern times means the same as it did back then.

You are arguing that people in history held a double standard?

No argument from me.

Just because it's "in the Bible" doesn't mean the bible endorses it.
 
And what about David and Jonathan doing the nasty?

The Bible thumpers kinda skip over that homoerotic part.
 
Reference please?

Samuel. Here's just one example:

I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.

...or...

The soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. ... Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.
 
Samuel. Here's just one example:

I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.

...or...

The soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. ... Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.

These are the exact same 2 examples Galonrox used 3 years ago.

Lame.

Ok, I'll see if I have a 'standerd issue responce' for them...
 
These are the exact same 2 examples Galonrox used 3 years ago.

Lame.

Ok, I'll see if I have a 'standerd issue responce' for them...

I hope it includes some mention of "ἀγάπησίς σου ἐμοὶ"--your love for me, 2 Sam 1:26.
I do not speak hebrew but the greek is irrefutable. agapao is never used to denote erotic love.
 
Samuel. Here's just one example:

I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.

2 Samuel 1; 26: David Hears of Saul's Death

David wrote this lament of the bow for his son.

As love does not nicecitate sex, we have no reason to assum that this father's love for his son was romantic in any way. Given the cultural context, we have every reason to assume the oposit, in fact.

Therefore let me adress your original acusation:
And what about David and Jonathan doing the nasty?

The Bible thumpers kinda skip over that homoerotic part
.

There is nothing in this father's mooring of his son's death to suggest that David was romantically involved with his son.

Your first example is false.

The soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. ... Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.

1 Samuel 18; 1: (New International Version)

This is David shedding his old identity and becoming a member of Saul's house.
You will notice throughout scripture the symbology of the robe, and the tunic to a lesser extent, as a tool to identify someone's social position. The robe in the Middle East served the same purpose as a Kilt.

Your second example is false.

Kindly accept correction so that you can bring quality debate to the table.
 
2 Samuel 1; 26: David Hears of Saul's Death

David wrote this lament of the bow for his son.

As love does not nicecitate sex, we have no reason to assum that this father's love for his son was romantic in any way. Given the cultural context, we have every reason to assume the oposit, in fact.

Oh my, David was not Jonathan's father, how embarrassing :3oops: I haven't made a mistake like that in a while. What a blunder :doh

My point remains, however, that brotherly love is not inherently romantic, so if someone loves a brother or brother-in-arms more than they love any woman, this not mean they were romantically involved.
 
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You are arguing that people in history held a double standard?

No argument from me.

Just because it's "in the Bible" doesn't mean the bible endorses it.

Well if its not in the Bible and the Bible does not prohibit it... then what?

That what this is about after all. That the Bible does no prohibit married men having sex with unmarried woman thus it was tolerated/allowed.

That has been the topic all along. I don't understand what caused you to think otherwise.
 
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Well if its not in the Bible and the Bible does not prohibit it... then what?

That what this is about after all. That the Bible does no prohibit married men having sex with unmarried woman thus it was tolerated/allowed.

That has been the topic all along. I don't understand what caused you to think otherwise.

Using examples of people breaking the law to demonstrate that the law did not exist in inherently fallacious.

When you look at the law, it’s quite clear.

When you look at examples of what people did, we see their folly.

You need to use a person whom everyone agrees was sinless in order to make such examples.
 
Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience so they knew full well what he was saying concerning adultery.
Yes, he was comparing it.. Let me use my own example as a comparison.

"Whosoever wishes death upon another has already committed murder is his heart."

Notice how the definition of what "murder" is isn't discussed. So lets say we had a discussion regarding self defense and I claimed murder was not self-defense and you believed it was. So if you were to claim self-defense was murder because of this passage it would be a non sequitur. This is exactly the same for the original passage. The passage doesn't define adultery or lend any insight into how people defined it at the time so it doesn't do anything to refute the OP.

You seem to be under the impression that Jewish males were permitted a sexual do as they please freedom.
No, I am not. I am ONLY stating that it was tolerated for married men to have sex with prostitutes and unmarried woman in the Bible. I'm not claiming men could have sex with other married woman or other men or whatever.

I have a very narrow claim that is supported by instances in the Bible.

under the laws there was to be no sexual relations period outside of marriage.
Please explain how you know this.

Le 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.
This is not a decree against prostitution. This is a law against making your daughter a prostitute. Fathers may have prostituted their daughters for income or debt. Also, prostitution of such type was used in cults.
The IVP Women's Bible Commentary ... - Google Book Search

Either way this thread is NOT about if being a prostitute was considered immoral. Its about whether married men using prostitutes was prohibited in the Bible, explicitly or implicitly.

Thus we see that fornication was not permitted
I don't see how this has anything to do with fornication. Its just about making your daughter a prostitute.

nor was prostitution even in the Old Testament.
Nope, making your daughter a prostitute was illegal. That is why it goes to such pains to say "make your daughter" instead of something more broad against prostitution in general.

Thus to us any sex committed by a married individual regardless of gender is considered adultery.
There is NO evidence to suggest that adultery as you define it is the same as adultery as I have defined it in the OP. I have stated my reasoning in the OP. Thus, repeating that adultery (as you define it) over and over again isn't convincing because it does not address the issue.
 
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Using examples of people breaking the law to demonstrate that the law did not exist in inherently fallacious.
Asserting that the passages provided are examples of people breaking the law ipse dixit is fallacious.

When you look at the law, it’s quite clear.
Then why can't you defend it with anything more than "because I say so"?

When you look at examples of what people did, we see their folly.
The moral zeitgeist of today says it is wrong. But the Bible in and of itself does not say such is wrong.

So just because "we see their folly" today it has no bearing on what the bible prohibits or accepts.

You need to use a person whom everyone agrees was sinless in order to make such examples.
:confused:
 
Yes, he was comparing it.. Let me use my own example as a comparison.

As I have stated before there are 613 commandments, These commandments are interlocked. It is said that if you break one commandment that you break them all.

Decalogue: Ten Commandments

Moreover, in Jewish understanding, all 613 mitzvot are equally important, so the Decalogue is not really considered the "core"; ritual and dietary commandments are considered just as important as theological or ethical commands. If you break any one of them, you've broken God's Law.
These commandments are not linked together like a chain but rather like a finely woven mesh. The purpose of this at least from a Christian point of view is that it is impossible for anyone to keep the law of Moses perfectly. No matter what you do, you always wind up at the same point. A violator of the law no matter what or how many commandments you are capable of keeping. 612 does not cut it. You have to keep a perfect score of 613 for all your days of life. Thus screw up by lying, adultery or whatever the end result is the same. Thus from this theological point of view we are all liars, all thieves, all adulterers etc.

The full punishment for adultery does apply to the male if he has sexual relations with a married woman. A woman once married is married to only one man. Thus who ever she has sex with outside of marriage is considered adultery. As to the man, Again he is not free to have sex with whom ever he chooses when ever he chooses.

As to not sleeping with any prostitute being implicit, Considering all the verse condemning whoredom I find it difficult how you can think that such behavior could be condoned in any way shape or form regardless of the nationality of the prostitute involved. Can you show me a verse that says sleeping with any prostitute is ok just as long as she not Jewish?

As to fornication.

De 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
De 22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

So as can be seen tolerated is not exactly the right term. It is just that the judgment is not as sever as out and out adultery. Notice here that the woman receives no punishment whatsoever except perhaps getting stuck with a lousy husband for the rest of her life and also notice there is no option for divorce in this ruling so if she is a shrew the man is stuck with her for the rest of his life.

And if you disagree with this can you show me any verse that claims sleeping with an unmarried woman if you do not pay her in any way is ok?

If you can not show any verses that declare that sleeping with foreign prostitutes is ok or that sleeping with unmarried women via consent is ok then it should be a given that all sexual relations according to Mosaic law are to take place within the marriage and not outside of marriage regardless of gender. Although punishments may differ, the end result is the same. Sex outside of marriage is not legal in any way shape or form.

In case your question is based on the idea that women in the bible are taught to be a lesser being or some other thing that is not the case either. I believe I have mentioned to you before that the bible is a progressive work and not a static work. If I am mistaking you for someone else then let me apologize before hand,

In the beginning the man and the woman were created as true co equals.

Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This co equal status continued until the fall.

Ge 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
So when reading about the status of women in the bible it must be read in the context of the above verse. It is not because women are lesser beings but rather it is the result of the curse judgment placed on the female at the fall.

And the male of course did not get of lightly either.

Ge 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Ge 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Thus as can be seen being a husband was also meant to become a heavy burden. It is from the context of these curse verses that all the future laws statutes covenants etc must be interpreted by. When doing so it can be seen that neither sex is truly being favored above the other.

Beyond that, We are Christians and not Jews and we do not follow the Mosaic laws nor do we interpret them as do the Jews. And it appears that what ever Jews maybe here are not interested enough to take up your question. Generally whenever I have a Jewish question I go to this site.

Askmoses.com - Torah, Judaism and Jewish Info - Ask the Rabbi

This is an excellent site and you can actually chat with a true Rabbi trained in Rabbinical law and they are not shy. Ask what ever you want and they will try to answer it to the best of their abilities. You may not always like their answers but they will try. This is an open to all site. Anybody from anywhere can come here and ask questions about Judaism. Lots of Christians ask these guys questions. Very friendly and very open site

Moe
 
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As far as Christianity is concerned. We Don't. We follow the NT teachings. The NT teaches that for a man to even look upon a woman is adultery. The NT as far as I have seen never demanded a person to have only one wife. But different from the OT there are no verses teaching or supporting polygamy either.

Paul did call for church leaders to have only a single wife to set an example for the church. Thus on things like this the Christian church has built its modern view concerning adultery.

Moe

And so in the absence of conflicting laws we must default to the original, right? Because god does not change his mind, right? Or at least that's what I'm told when it's convenient to a xians argument.
 
And so in the absence of conflicting laws we must default to the original, right? Because god does not change his mind, right? Or at least that's what I'm told when it's convenient to a xians argument.


Your error is thinking we must. The Christian church's have the right to form their own laws by their own definitions of the scripture if there are no solid clear cut instructions in the NT.

If they wish to default to the OT they surly can. In fact that is exactly what one sect has done. Messianic Christians believe that they should keep all 613 commandments all Jewish holy days etc but they do believe that Jesus is the Messiah. That is their choice and that is how they choose to run their church. More power to them.

The problem comes when one sect believes that they are the only sect and they try to enforce their views on another sect. Christians proselytize among Christians all the time. Pretty much what a large part of the Book of Romans is about. Jewish believers and Gentile believers were at odds as to who had to what where and when. Paul basically said in very many words each mind your own business and do not worry about what the other guy is doing and worry more about what you are doing yourself.

Moe
 
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I've come to regard folks like Slippery Slope as less of a troll and more of a training dummy.
 
I've come to regard folks like Slippery Slope as less of a troll and more of a training dummy.
You're welcome. Glad I could help you work out your apologetics.

Thank YOU for proving my position with another insult, xian.
 
You're welcome. Glad I could help you work out your apologetics.

Thank YOU for proving my position with another insult, xian.

Ahh, so saying that you're not really a troll is an insult.

My World of Warcraft refrence:
Training Dummies in capital cities - WoW Insider

....is a way for me to adjust my attitude to view you and your posting style more constructively and with much less emotional investment.

After the hunter nerf I spent a lot of time in front of those training dummys working out a new shot rotation for the SV spec. I love my training dummys, they help me get ready for real threats.
 
What is your position slope? That you can antagonize and insult others at will and they should should just cower and take it? If they do not then they must not be good Christians?
Here is another Bible lesson for you. The door mat Christian is not scriptural. That is nothing more than the Church taking certain scriptures out of context to exert more control on their congregations. The Apostle Paul actually mocked such Christians.

2co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
2co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
2co 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly ,) I am bold also.

Even Jesus taught,

Mt 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
Mt 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

If you want respect you need to show respect. If you are not capable of showing any they do not be so surprised when you run into Christians who will not stand for your ignorance and your insults.

Moe
 
Can't find any biblical examples of extra-marital or multi-marital situations that had non-confrontational circumstances. No benignity. Always negative conotations.
 
What is your position slope? That you can antagonize and insult others at will and they should should just cower and take it? If they do not then they must not be good Christians?
Here is another Bible lesson for you. The door mat Christian is not scriptural. That is nothing more than the Church taking certain scriptures out of context to exert more control on their congregations. The Apostle Paul actually mocked such Christians.

2co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
2co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
2co 11:21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly ,) I am bold also.

Even Jesus taught,

Mt 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
Mt 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

If you want respect you need to show respect. If you are not capable of showing any they do not be so surprised when you run into Christians who will not stand for your ignorance and your insults.

Moe

The problem with your latest attack is that I never (I don't think or at least try not to) insult first. I think if you look back at most threads you'll see that I respond with my opinion or fact and once I'm attacked, all bets are off. Now, I'll admit that I don't give xians ANY wiggle room on topics regarding religion but that's just from years of dealing with these hypocrits. Frankly you and Jerry aren't even what I would consider a xian; you're both cafeteria xians who think they can pretend that xianity isn't full of **** just to cover for your unorthodox belief system that YOU have created.

Pop on to worthyboards.com and tell them your beliefs and I'm sure you'll be run off in no time.

It's amusing to me to see xians whine and call me an attacker right after they attack me.
 
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