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Islam: Aren't there some verses of the Qur'an that condone "killing the infidel"?

Sylviane88

Sylviane88

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Question: Aren't there some verses of the Qur'an that condone "killing the infidel"?

Answer: [FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]The Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle -- i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak about fighting/war in the Qur'an are in this context.[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]There are some specific verses that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by those trying to malign the faith, or by misguided Muslims (terrorists) themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif][/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Qur'an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif][/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif][/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]Another similar verse can be found in chapter 9, verse 5 -- which in its snipped, out of context version could read: "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." Again, the preceding and following verses give the context.[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif][/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]This verse was revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. The verse directly before this one instructs the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verse continues, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them... (as quoted above).[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif][/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]Directly after this permission to fight, the same verse continues, "but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them... for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." The subsequent verses instruct the Muslims to grant asylum to any member of the pagan tribe/army who asks for it, and again reminds that "as long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God loves the righteous."[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]Any verse that is quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Qur'an. Nowhere in the Qur'an can be found support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes.[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif][/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]The Islamic teachings on this subject can be summed up in the following verses (Qur'an 60:7-8):[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just."[/FONT]

(Islam - Verses of Qur'an That Condone "Killing the Infidel"?) By: Christine Huda Dodge
 
Sylviane88 said:
Question: Aren't there some verses of the Qur'an that condone "killing the infidel"?

Answer: [FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]The Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle -- i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak about fighting/war in the Qur'an
Click to expand...


Ooh, i like this thread :P

Murder is forbidden in Islam but self defence is not
 
Murder is forbidden because you took it from the commandments in the Jewish Torah isn't it?

Moe
 
Murder is forbidden because you took it from the commandments in the Jewish Torah isn't it?
Click to expand...

And the Torah probably took it from Hammurabi's code and so on and so forth. Something as obvious as "murder is bad" probably predates civilization, history and written language.
 
rathi said:
And the Torah probably took it from Hammurabi's code and so on and so forth. Something as obvious as "murder is bad" probably predates civilization, history and written language.
Click to expand...

That could be true. But the Pre Israel peoples such as Abraham etc held to a law also.

Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The original commandment against murder was given to Noah.

Ge 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

It is taught that Noah was given 6 other laws, This is called the rainbow covenant and the Gentiles who adhere to it are called Noachides, Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are[3]

Prohibition of Idolatry: You shall not have any idols before God.
Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexual intercourse.
Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
Dietary Law: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive. (Genesis 9:4)
Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly.

So the real question is what was the Hammurabi or any preceding codes based on? Did all the law codes come from what was given to Noah or did Moses get it all from the surrounding cultures.

Moe
 
Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder. (Genesis 9:6)
Click to expand...

Yehweh ( Your God ) already said: """Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women""" ( Ezkiel 9:6 ) and there are thousands similar verses in the old testaments like this ... ;)
 
Quran 25:63: The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, "Peace!"

Quran 5:82: " . . . and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: 'We are Christians.' That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud."

Quran 4:90: Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them.

Quran 4:94: . . . Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this life. For God has abundant treasure. You used to be like them, after all, and then God blessed you.
 
niftydrifty said:
Quran 25:63: The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, "Peace!"

Quran 5:82: " . . . and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: 'We are Christians.' That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud."

Quran 4:90: Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them.

Quran 4:94: . . . Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this life. For God has abundant treasure. You used to be like them, after all, and then God blessed you.
Click to expand...

I hope that who were "brainwashed" understand finally that Islam is not the religion of terrorism unlike the western media (which hates Islam) claims ... I hope at least they understand it is the religion of freedom and peace. like I understood so 2 years ago.
 
FBI Raids Muslim Chicago Home Connected Synagogue Attacks
Printer Friendly

By Debbie Schlussel

At the beginning of the year, I related news of violent attacks on five Chicago-area synagogues, including reader David Makowsky's synagogue, and two Jewish schools. In addition to destructive vandalism, the perpetrators--whom I surmised (and now am proven correct, yet again) were Muslim--scrawled anti-Semitic graffiti, wishing death to the Jews and Israel all over the buildings they attacked. (It hits close to home. One of the schools, Ida Crown Jewish Academy, is my little sister's alma mater, and the principal, Rabbi Lenny Matanky, was a counselor at my summer camp.)

This morning, FBI agents raided a Chicago-area home (in West Rogers Park--a highly Jewish area) in connection with these hate crimes. Private Investigator Bill Warner discovered that the residents of the home at 6029 N. Artesian Ave. are Mohammed Alkaramla and Tasfiq Alkaramla and their son, a 2004 high school grad. Wow--what a shocker!--attackers and perpetrators of violent hate-crimes against Jews in America are MUSLIMS. Let's see if that tiny, irrelevant detail makes the news.


Yup, those peaceful, "moderate" members of the "Religion of Peace"--who are sooooooo different from their violent brethren everywhere else around the world because in America they have easy access to McDonald's and "Survivor."

As Bill Warner also notes, the warrant was related to a New York Muslim resident, Youssef Al-Khattab, who preaches jihad against Jews and threatened to destroy the headquarters of the Chabad Lubavitch Chassidic movement in New York. Bill has been on top of the whole Khattab issue for a long time.

Yes, folks, there is an international jihadist network, and it has plenty of outposts around and throughout America's "moderate" Islamic community. So much for the FBI's claim that terrorism is no longer an important criminal threat to America.

Hey, it's only the Jews. So why should we care, right? Echoes of 1930s Europe.


"Religion of Peace" Vandalizes Lincolnwood Synagogue Near Chicago
With "Death to Israel; Free Palestine" Graffiti, Broken Windows
More:

Rabbi Alan Abramson of Congregation Anshe Motele, 6526 N. California Ave., said the "Death to Israel" graffiti spray-painted on the synagogue took a toll on worshippers.

"When you have elderly people who are survivors of the Holocaust who show up on Saturday morning for prayers and they thought they left this all behind when they left Nazi Germany, it's a psychological fear," Abramson said. "Who would ever think that would happen here in Chicago?"


Wherever there are Muslims, it'll happen. Bet on it.

Go to link for story with links:
Debbie Schlussel
 
walleye said:
FBI Raids Muslim Chicago Home Connected Synagogue Attacks
Printer Friendly

By Debbie Schlussel

At the beginning of the year, I related news of violent attacks on five Chicago-area synagogues, including reader David Makowsky's synagogue, and two Jewish schools. In addition to destructive vandalism, the perpetrators--
Click to expand...

:ot

The topic is about verses in the Qur'an not radical fringe groups.
 
walleye said:
I believe it is on topic. Verses in the koran are against jews and so is this behavior.
Click to expand...

The Qur'an was not even mentioned in your article. The topic of this thread is the Qur'an.
 
walleye said:
The Qur'an has verses of hatred of Jews. This article shows the results of Jewish hatred spoken of in the Qur'an.
Click to expand...

There is no mention of the Qur'an in your article.

All you do is try to debate through links. Why do you even bother coming here?
 
Sylviane88 said:
Yehweh ( Your God ) already said: """Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women""" ( Ezkiel 9:6 ) and there are thousands similar verses in the old testaments like this ... ;)
Click to expand...

Nice,

You accuse others of chopping up the Quran to take it out of context and then turn right around and do the samething yourself. So lets take look at these verses in context.

This judgment basically starts at,

Eze 8:17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.

The verse you use is God passing judgment upon the tribe Israel itself. And what is the reason for this judgment? for they have filled the land with violence, Thus the judgment concerning the slaying of old men young men etc is basically because you have done this to others now I will permit it to be done to you.

Because Israel murdered they will be murdered.

Moe
 
Sylviane88 said:
Question: Aren't there some verses of the Qur'an that condone "killing the infidel"?

Answer: [FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]The Qur'an commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle -- i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak about fighting/war in the Qur'an are in this context.[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]There are some specific verses that are very often "snipped" out of context, either by those trying to malign the faith, or by misguided Muslims (terrorists) themselves who wish to justify their aggressive tactics.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]For example, one verse (in its snipped version) reads: "slay them wherever you catch them" (Qur'an 2:191). But who is this referring to? Who are "they" that this verse discusses? The preceding and following verses give the correct context:[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up. Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent bystanders or non-combatants.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]Another similar verse can be found in chapter 9, verse 5 -- which in its snipped, out of context version could read: "fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)." Again, the preceding and following verses give the context.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]This verse was revealed during a historical period when the small Muslim community had entered into treaties with neighboring tribes (Jewish, Christian, and pagan). Several of the pagan tribes had violated the terms of their treaty, secretly aiding an enemy attack against the Muslim community. The verse directly before this one instructs the Muslims to continue to honor treaties with anyone who has not since betrayed them, because fulfilling agreements is considered a righteous action. Then the verse continues, that those who have violated the terms of the treaty have declared war, so fight them... (as quoted above).[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]Directly after this permission to fight, the same verse continues, "but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them... for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." The subsequent verses instruct the Muslims to grant asylum to any member of the pagan tribe/army who asks for it, and again reminds that "as long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God loves the righteous."[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]Any verse that is quoted out of context misses the whole point of the message of the Qur'an. Nowhere in the Qur'an can be found support for indiscriminate slaughter, the killing of non-combatants, or murder of innocent persons in 'payback' for another people's alleged crimes.[/FONT]

[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]The Islamic teachings on this subject can be summed up in the following verses (Qur'an 60:7-8):[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things), and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman,new york,times,serif]God does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loves those who are just."[/FONT]

(Islam - Verses of Qur'an That Condone "Killing the Infidel"?) By: Christine Huda Dodge
Click to expand...

How about an Islamic group that doesn't believe you.

Muslims Against Sharia
 
moe said:
Wow. Heck of a mission statement these people have. Laia if you come through here it would be interesting to see your opinion of this kind of Muslim thinking.

Moe
Click to expand...

Most just call them "sell outs" to the west and other retarded crap.

Its not real Islam unless it has something negative about the evil joo or the great Satan...:roll:
 
cherokee said:
How about an Islamic group that doesn't believe you.

Muslims Against Sharia
Click to expand...
cool. "a group." well. nearly all Muslim scholars disagree with their interpretation of Islam. AND most Muslims. and if you look at the texts, it pretty clearly doesn't say what they say it does. unless you're a fundie, too.
 
walleye I just wanted to say that you're an excruciatingly terrible debater, I've never seen anyone so brainwashed as to post a random article that agrees with his point of view and think it's somehow valid or legitimate.

niftydrifty said:
Quran 25:63: The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, "Peace!"

Quran 5:82: " . . . and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: 'We are Christians.' That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud."

Quran 4:90: Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them.

Quran 4:94: . . . Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this life. For God has abundant treasure. You used to be like them, after all, and then God blessed you.
Click to expand...

That doesn't prove Islam is peace, it just proves that the Qu'ran has contradictions.

If Hitler for instance had said "I love everyone, Jews...Christians...Muslims...Atheists...etc" and then went on to kill them, would his preaching of love have any legitimacy? What if a neo-nazi of today used such quotes by Hitler and said "Hitler is peace"

This is exactly what you're doing with the Qu'ran. The penalty for apostasy (ie: leaving Islam) under Allah's "sharia law" is the death penalty, yet you want us to simply overwrite the wrong with a few verses about "peace"
 
moe said:
Wow. Heck of a mission statement these people have. Laia if you come through here it would be interesting to see your opinion of this kind of Muslim thinking.

Moe
Click to expand...

I love Muslims against Sharia, i agree with the majority of their thinking. I applaud their work and i hope they suceed.

However saying that, i also do support the will of the people. If Muslims want their country under Sharia, then i will support their right to choose it.

I personally dislike large aspects of Sharia, i think they are designed tipped in favour of men and against women. I think they are unfair and in some cases, downright disgusting. Some Sharia laws like the Saudi's are designed perfectly to ensure a female can not do nothing without a man. It demonsrates to me the pure insecurity of some Muslim men.
 
cherokee said:
Most just call them "sell outs" to the west and other retarded crap.

Its not real Islam unless it has something negative about the evil joo or the great Satan...:roll:
Click to expand...

The one thing that angers me more than westerners and non Muslims insulting Islam without full knowledge of Islam is when self appointed speakers of Islam [who elected them anyway?] come on TV after a attack on civilians and use the damn cop out line of 'Islam is peace' pisses me off, why do Moderates not admit that there is a problem within Islam. They are doing nothing but excusing such behaviour by pretending it has no aspect of Islam in it.

Extremists do use some verses of Qu'ran to aid them and when Muslims acknowledge this is when perhaps we'll get somewhere.

Omg, and another thing that angers me about Muslim men is when in the Mosque we are not ALLOWED to pray in some Mosques in LONDON. Not Saudi Arabia, oh no. In London, they actually forbid females as if the Mosque belongs to them. Stuck up bastards, its state property not private property. And the UK Government and EU in general bowing down to a minority of Muslims demands. When the hell did we grow to be ******s in the west? Jesus Christ

Or when Muslims in western countries [US included] who say they are not loyal to the country they are living in [Why are you there then you fools?] or when they use democracy to try and take the piss.

And don't get me started on Muslims and ME. Have you noticed that whenever African Muslims die there is not a PEEP out of Arab Governments but when Palestinians die - it is the end of the world :roll:

/rant off
I feel so much better now
 
Last edited:
Laila said:
I love Muslims against Sharia, i agree with the majority of their thinking. I applaud their work and i hope they suceed.

However saying that, i also do support the will of the people. If Muslims want their country under Sharia, then i will support their right to choose it.

I personally dislike large aspects of Sharia, i think they are designed tipped in favour of men and against women. I think they are unfair and in some cases, downright disgusting. Some Sharia laws like the Saudi's are designed perfectly to ensure a female can not do nothing without a man. It demonsrates to me the pure insecurity of some Muslim men.
Click to expand...

So Laila how much influence does this group have? Are they just a small minority or do they have a solid base of support? Have they influenced or changed your mind in any way?

I really think they deserve some real credit myself because we know how dangerous it can be for a Muslem to publicly express their disagreement with extremist views.

Even extremists in our belief have gone off the deep end bombing abortion clinics and murdering doctors. Sad to say every religious group has it's terrorists.

Reading Dawkins God Delusion he shows some of the hate mail he has recieved from Christians. Very disturbing stuff. Considering that in your religion there is some what of a broader support from extremists I would think the adherents of this group place themselves in considerable danger?

Moe
 
The proofs in the pudding

Look how islamic countries act the closer they are to the quran where are the tibetan suicide bombers?

You westerners who spend your time defending the Quran are nothing more than usefull idiots for genocidal regimes.The left acts alot of the time like a propaganda wing of terrorists.

You dont even defend the muslims who need your support the political dissidents who want democracy. the abused women,the apostates who live in fear even in western countries.
 
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