bhkad

Didn't you get the memo? We don't do that any more. And we certainly didn't do it then because the Bible told us to.

Muslims still believe in conquest by the sword. And they do it as their way of obeying Allah's commandments.

Christianity, Islam and British Politics

__________________
But, when all is said and done, Senator McCain has not spent decades aiding and abetting people who hate America. http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell060508.php3

bhkad

I think it means, "submission."

I guess we are both right. But your definition conveys an idea that has a hidden string attached. Peace is yours IF you submit to Allah.

And we all know that Ronald Reagan said we could get peace in one second, by submitting to those who would conquer us.

bhkad

In your attempt to appear fair and balanced you throw me under the bus?

How low and cowardly of you.

And please don't abuse your mod power by waiting for a chance to exact revenge for my saying this.

Mach

WI,

Because it's hypocritical. That's what make everyone crazy, and it always will.

The reality is that if the OP is "really alarming", or "enlightening", it would be a surprise to some individuals who read it and correctly respond that this is no different than most any power, be it a world power/nation/religion/government.

So, then question then becomes, why is it important to post? As ID points out, it's because it's related to drumming up anti-Islamic sentiment because of the war on Iraqi's, and basically part of a war on Islam.

This is then hypocritical, because the REASONS behind it, would necessarily mean those decrying Islam, should actually be decrying their own state/nation/religion. And since they aren't, they are called on their nonsense.

So if you ask why every time someone writes 1+1=3 always leads to people telling them it's 1+1=2, you can be sure that if someone writes 1+1=3 again, you'll see the same, boring response.

-Mach

__________________
Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and I am content.- Conan

WI Crippler

I did not throw you under the bus. It is well known that you have attempted to tie in the existent threat from Islam, into many threads that have nothing to do with that discussion. Don't worry, I won't hold this against you only because I strive to be fair andbalanced

__________________
"Fatigue makes cowards of us all" - Vincent T. Lombardi.

Mach

Don't do what anymore. Kill innocents in our wars waged for more power, or overthrowing other governments (not just Iraq)? I suspect we do exactly that, continually. Aren't you in favor of that sort of thing anyway if it means more perceived safety or more oil (yes, you are).

According to Christians this is a Christian nation, founded on and following, the Bible. They disagree with you on that count as well.

The thing you forget is that those in power in the Middle East ALSO do not wage such wars soley for religious reasons. They do it for power, just like you, just like me, just like most religions or nations They use religion as justification, or a tool, because it helps brainwash the masses. No different than many cultures, including our own. I don't need to label someone as "evil", and me as "good" to justify in taking actions against them, in fact, that would be the wrong reason IMO to act.

I still believe in conquest by the sword.
Our freaking administration just bombed and took over a nation good lord man. What are you smoking? We had 3000 people die and we invaded a country. WE LIVE BY THE SWORD AS WELL.
Now, I'm not claiming that's bad, or wrong, I'm simply pointing out, your attempt at making them seem "different" is absurd.

I know that's the rule of political propoganda. Label the opposition as evil, and start a propoganda war. All I'm point out is that if that's the reason, it's bunk.

-Mach

WI Crippler

I once started a thread dedicated soley to the discussion about Islam. I outlined in my OP that I would not accept any discussion of anything other than Islam and its role in the world. It was a thread that, if people wanted to discuss it singularly, they could. It ended up not being a very popular thread. I doubt it made 3 pages. But when the OPs do not outline the direction of their discussions about Islam, we end up with 20 pages of bashing the US and/or Christianity, rather than discussing Islam at all. Its not about hypocrisy, its about taking off the blinders and looking at the rest of the world, rather than just the narrow focus on American atrocities and wrongdoings. Its about opening up perspective about Islam, and how it affects the entire world, particularly the humans that reside in the regions where it is dominant. But nobody is interested in that, because of the "American" attitude that dominates both the left and right. Arrogance, not only that of a nationalist superiority as it relates ot our status around the world, but also our denial that problems around the world will not eventually become our own problems, if left unchecked. And also the arrogance, that as the supposed beacon on the hill, we would allow other human beings to suffer under truly brutal regimes, and look the other way.

Mach

What are you debating exactly though. On the science forum if a new discovery arises, yes, it's news and not really debate-worthy (unless it's on evolution then the apes go crazy).

I mean, I would strongly suggest that you, or anyone, seeking to learn about a subject in a factual, historical, scientific way, AVOID most internet forums, especially those with the word *politics* in them. I mean, I believe that to some degree that goes without saying.

That being said, that we're on a *debate* *politics* forum, one may expect that #1 sides will be taken ala dabate, and #2 we may have to wade through political propoganda (the politics part).

So, given these realities, we now move to the OP. Who is the author? Bhkad. Have you taken the author into this context? Bhkad is proud to display a very Machiavallian attitude towards national power and its violent exercise of it. Which is fine, no negative connotation there.

But when I read the OP, it is focusing on Islam and it's roots of "conquest". I presume the fact that an entire religion being described in it's violent/conquest terms, is specifically as fuel to the propoganda war in labeling Islam as evil, based on violence, and thus the U.S. is justified in doing XYZ, which is on ongoing politcal foreign policy debate, internationally.

If you honestly thought it was a history lesson, and wasn't about debating, or politics, I can't believe that. If you'd prefer it to be a history lesson, OK, I can accept that. But if you think the reaction to his post, based soley on the OP, the context, the forum, and the author, was way off base, I don't agree. I see your point, I believe you may see mine as well.

-Mach

Mach

Bhkad,

By all means, if you want this to be a non-partisan, non-political, fair and balanced (!) look at a religion, OK. You just let me know if that's what you want and I'll ignore the thread. I thought it I was on debate politics


-Mach

niftydrifty

it's because the criticisms usually directed at Islam are true of other large groups of human beings and their respective worldviews. Islamophobes seek to prove a causal relationship between Islam and violence. but if the same is true of other "religions," then Islam is obviously not the cause.

it's pretty simple really. let's say you're a psychologist and you isolate all the grey rats from one region and observe their behavior, and make conclusions about what those particular grey rats do. but then, after you publish your paper, someone else comes along and points out that white, black, tan, spotted, and brown rats, living on all continents, all do precisely the same things.

would you feel foolish? I hope so.

__________________
"I admit it. The liberal media were never that powerful, and the whole thing was often used as an excuse by conservatives for conservative failures." - Bill Kristol