Mach

Be fair, most nations do not historically exhibit this either, including the U.S, and that's because we're talking about the same animals, humans.

I think your point that Britain may need to actually face this problem in a way they haven't typically faced such problems before, is probably accurate.

We had the same issues in the U.S. We ethnically cleansed the dirty natives from our god given land so we could spread freedom. We then kept Africans as slaves and segregated them, then fought a war against ourslelves to integrate them. We left the natives segregated and they didn't fare so well did they. Jews we left segregated and they remain the most powerful minority, probably ever. Segreation, integration, ethnic cleansing, all just tools, everyone uses them or has historically.

The questions are:
1. Do the British believe segregation will work in the long run, or cause more pain, hardship, problems, etc. down the line, and eventually be violent as a result?
2. Do the British believe the clash of integration will be the better long-term solution, despite the significant shor-term pain both peoples will experience as a result?
3. Do the British believe they can get away with ethnic cleansing?

That's up to them, and their government, to decide. None are magically better or more historically associated with good or bad nations. It's human nature. I doubt they could get away with #3. So their choice becomes 1 or 2. Both are in use in the U.S. also. Both have met with success and failures.

-Mach

__________________
Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and I am content.- Conan

GySgt

I was. In time of trouble, America usually responds favorably. Instead of evicting former slaves, they were left to society's prescriptions. During great civil disruption, civil rights were championed. America always eventually addresses trouble with wisdom and to the benefit of the society. This is not the case for Europe. While critics love that early Americans killed native Americans in their quest to pioneer west, Europe is the continent that perfected genocide and ethnic cleansing. And I am not talking about anchient history. The twentieth century was a saga of ethnic relocation even without the issue of the holocaust. As late as the 1990s we saw America troops cross the ocean to deal with yet another bout of genocide and ethnic cleansing on the continent that fancies themselves our superior. And we have no reason to think it's over.



The difference is that we deal with those issues "correctly." There are countless laws that provide the native American benefits the average American does not get even now. Former slaves, are Presidential hopefuls and military generals and have been the subject of laws that would hand them jobs no matter the qualification just to even the playing field. There was no genocide and ethnic unrest in America in the twentieth century other than the civil rights marches. And once again...America dealt with the issue favorably.

The quest here is not to exonerate or pretend issues didn't exist. The quest should be to define how we have dealt with those issues. You will find that we sit aside from Europe in this regard.

I believe that it may be largely too late for Europe to impliment the mass immigration programs that will deal with the current and exponentially growing problems. We work not only because of our never ending immigrant programs, but because we are immigrants taking care of immigrants. In other words, we aren't trying to cling to a culture that is a thousand years old and getting by with the bare minimum for any outsider that thinks he can ruin it. Our American culture is such that it absorbs the new comer. But given their track record in times of trouble, Europe has not behaved in accordance to its current pacifist themes. I might add that every time Europe fancied themselves to be above such behavior, the world has witnessed exactly what history has displayed.

__________________

GySgt
Semper Fidelis
USMC

Mach

I think someone already pointed out how Jewish culture was absorbed in the U.S. as a segregated culture, with some of its own laws, its own food cleaning, its own religious authorities/courts, etc., and that specifically they transplanted their culture into the U.S., and remain by choice, segregated (because they are gods people after all, and the rest...meh). And it seems to work fine (they are rich and powerful, gives them a bit of an edge may be why).

As to American doing it right:
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Sure they had muslim riots in France, but we had the Rodney King riots not too long before.
Sure we gave some Native Americans some handouts AFTER we destroyed them 95%.
Sure we solved a lot of our African American issues AFTER we enslaved them, FOUGHT A CIVIL WAR, then fought a "cold war of predjudice" for decades. Hell, our election may end up being decided on issues of predjudice, can the blue dogs and the south vote black? Jury still out on that.
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All I'm pointing out is that the U.S. suffered through this sort of thing, and still does. An no solution was easy, rarely did we pick the "good" choice up front, only after we fumbled for a while. Let's let Britain fumble before we cry foul?

To me right now the OP looks to be showing that Muslims want a culture just like the Jewish culture in the U.S. So, they ARE following the U.S. lead, right? I mean, even if they exterminated them, or tried a civil war, at worst they'd be doing what the U.S. did.

I think a portion of Britian and U.S. population fears muslims like they feared communism. Some of it's got basis in justified worry, some of it's just good old fashioned race-hating.

They just need to visit this site really. The "Muslim" key word brings up those ads for the Muslim Matrimonial service with that cute girl on it. Let the youth see that, and they'll get integrated right quick. Partially in jest, but I think the best way to integrate a culture is to show the youth what your culture has to offer, and leap frog over the less open-minded adults. That's how we do it in the U.S. anyway

-Mach

GySgt

Orthodox Jews practice their religion as they see fit. This means that they invoke certain Jewsih laws when dealing with internal issues. But when it comes to sytate matters, there is no such thing as Jewsih law trumping the laws of the land. Jews have never had the assimilation issues that Muslims have. In fact, nobody has. Even the proud defensive Irish wave of immigrants quickly chose to be Americans rather than immigrants who wished to create a "New Ireland."

Nothing to do with what I stated. Blacks taking advantage of a situation to loot their own neighborhood has nothing to do with riots that are focused on jobless youth looking to lash out. Besides, one riot here or there has nothing to do with big picture immigration problems nor does it have anyting to do with how issues have been dealt with.

Instead of ignoring the Native American, we commenced to right as best we could a wrong. We continue to do so.

Instead continuing slavery, we fought a Civil War. Instead of kicking out Africans after the Civil War, we accepted existence. A century later we marched for their civil rights.

The existence of prejudice has nothing to do with what I stated. The difference is how we deal with that prejudice.

No, you are seeking ways to ease a big problem by comparing it to issues in America. This will not work, because America has never dealt with issues on the same level as continental Europe. Who cares what Britian does? It's not our problem. The fact that they have proven to as loyal to us as we are to them fills us with a sense of obligation to be there for them, but we don't have any basis to assume our opinions matter. Besides, Britian is not the continent of Europe. Perhaps the greatest body of water is the English Channel. It was not Britian that perfected genocide and ethnic cleansing on the continent. Britian's track record stands aside from those of the continent.

I don't know where you got this idea that Jews are set aside from America. They are subjected to the very same laws as everybody else. The laws of the state trump all. You seem to be dismissing one fact here.... Jews do not plan and execute terrorist plots from within Jewish neighborhoods. Muslims do this in Europe. This is a dangerous thing.

Some fear Muslims because they are Muslim. Others refuse to acknowledge the threat at all. And then there are those who can see past the fear and see the issue clearly. I believe you are attempting down play the issue. The funny thing about this is that even Muslims do not speak against their problem children beyond the suttle remarks. Fewer still even care to defend Islam against their own monsters. If we were to blame someone for the world view of Islam today, we should blame all those moderate good natured Muslims who remain silent as their monsters define Islam for them.

Even in America we see Muslims flee from assimilating. Unlike the immigrants of the past, Muslims send their children to Islamic religious schools. They are not given the chance to mix with different cultures until they are much older. They are not afforded the opportunity to grow up experiencing life outside the Qu'ran and their father's religious prescriptions. The Irish, the Italians, Jews, all of them raised their children with pride in their cultures, but exposed to others. The problem Europe is having is that instead of the level of Muslim immigrant America gets, they are receiving the poor. Worse yet, these poor Muslims are dropping into situations where jobs are far and few between even for the native Europeans.

This is a recipe for disaster. And what example has the continent that perfected ethnic cleansing and relocation given us in history?