Rhapsody1447 said:
It is hard for us to understand some of the happenings of the Old Testament, as it was over 2,000 years ago that it occurred. Rules, customs, and lifestyles were radically different.
Why were certain things considered right then and not now? What exactly has changed? If you agree with God's decisons thousands of years ago, you must follow the entire OT, instead of just bits and pieces of it. If you say Jesus came along and abolished the old covenant, then you clearly do'nt have any faith in your God's choices thousands of years ago. I must question this Jesus thing also. God told Moses that his laws are an
everlasting covenant, meant to last forever.
Deut. 28:46. The OT is crystal clear on the fact that Jews are supposed to observe these laws forever. Nowhere in the OT do we find God telling the Jews that he will send a Messiah to abolish all these laws that he made.
IThe Mosaic Law was intended for a different people in a different era. You can't say that since he didn't abolish the old law he supports all those things, that is ludicrous. Give me a verse where God approves of beating slaves.
I was reffering to Jesus approving, not God. O, well, their bothe fictional so who cares. I have a few points to make regarding slavery- 1. Do Christians believe that the bible is the innerant word of an immaterial God? 2. God clearly has no problem with slavery, as he sets all these rules and guidlines for owning slaves. 3. Is slavery considered wrong by today's standards? 4. Either the bible is a book of legends, or Christians will have to buckle up and bring back slavery.
Here's a few examples where God and Jesus mutually agree on slavery:
Deuteronomy 25:1-3
Luke 12:47-48I'm guessing the proverbial apple doesn't fall far from the tree.:lol: It's mighty funny how Christians assert that atheists have no moral guidlines, I dare you to point out to me a single atheist book that condones slavery and incest.
You want proof of actual events and circumstances that took place over 2,000 years ago. I am telling you that if this was some "grand conspiracy" conjured up by "delusional cavemen" that it would not take hold in such a major way in our society today.
Any way you wish to disfigure this, it is still an arguement from poularity, or common consent. You are merely saying if this was a fairy tale that society would quickly reject it. It was perfectly fine to be a believer back in the day because the facts governing our universe and natural law were unknown.
It is hardly limited. You are given a simple choice, believe in Him and accept His gift of salvation and you will spend eternity with Him. Deny He exists and refuse His gift of salvation and you will spend eternity apart from Him.
Sure it's limited. You cannot choose other than believe or not. And, if you choose no, then God and Jesus hold hell over you like a bully shaking his fist at you. If you are believeing only because you do not want to go to hell, you are lying to yourself.
Your watch comparison is pathetic, it doesn't apply here at all. A watch is capable of making decisions, or exercising free will.
Well, however you wanna spin it, the bottom line is God's creation, God's responsibilty. He does not get off the hook here. He created hell, he set the whole shabang up. It was his decision to create hell at the onset of creation. How can humans ending up in hell be anything other than God's fault? I'd say by blaming humans for this is an underhanded attempt at making your God appear blameless.
How is the fall of man Jesus' responsibility? The day he gave us free will it became our decision, not Jesus'. Jesus didn't give into temptation and directly disobey his father in the garden, man did. It is not Satan's power that caused Jesus to send his Son, he sent his Son to be an example of holiness and perfection to the world, personally interact with his creation and help as many as possible see the light of salvation, performing miracles, proving he was the Son of Man.
Did I say it was Jesus' responsibility? Please read a little closer. And Adam and Eve were not created perfect with free will and all. To make a choice you must have "right" and "wrong" defined first, then one can go about choosing. How are we to know Jesus wasn't a mere imposter? I mean, if God is omniscient, you would think that he would tell at least his chosen people that a fellow Jew will be the Messiah, and they can get salvation through him.
He did create everything right, when Adam succumbed to temptation in the Garden sin first entered the world, altering everything.
How can anything go wrong in a perfect enity's plan?
Satan does have power over man! What do you think causes all the murders, and atrocities our world witnesses everyday!
Why doesn't God do away with such a being then. Surely an omnibenevolent God would want to stop murders and atrocities, and being omnipotent can. So, he has no reason not to.
You are contradicting yourself in between your paragraphs. Just like cold is the absence of heat, and darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of God. Through man's imperfection, and influence from Satan evil things occur, don't blame the world's problems on God.
If God created everything, he created all the conditions necessary for evil to occur. He created Satan, he created murderers, tyrants, rapists, robbers, everything. How can a God who created everything,
not take the blame for stuff that happens in his world he created?
He already composed a 2,000 page letter to his creation!
Yes, full of atrocites, murder, rape and other horrors, and supposedly a "loving" God inspired it. What reason does anyone have to believe that it is anything other than a children's bedtime story?
Well, he could prove he exists in the same way I know George Bush exists, or my neighbor. It doesn't take alot really, he just has to get off his omnipotent keister and show himself.
God wants everyone to come to Him through free will, not through force.
Then why all the talk about the consequences of not coming to him? he weeping and knashing of teeth, and other horrible suffering that awaits non-believer's.
If you created a village what would you rather have, a group of people forced to worship you day and night, or a group of people who chose to do so?
It really matters little to me, as long as I'm worshipped, how they come to that conclusion is of no importance to me.
God supercedes logic. You can't logically define moral principles, the Origin of man, you have to understand that human logic is not the upmost form of understanding.
With all due respect, WTF? Are you impying that God gave man inferior logic? Logic is about forming conclusions from their premise. By saying God superceds logic, you are saying he's made-up.
Well you are the first person I know who has ever read the Bible and came away under the impression that God is trying to force you into loving Him. That is why we were granting free will in the first place. Compare Jesus' messages of love and compassion with those of judgement, judgement pales in comparison.
How can you say we have free will, when in the bible it states predestination multiple times, hardend hearts, and it tells about God creating people for a certian reason?
He created Hitler, just like he created Ghandi. What the resulting people chose to do with their lives were entirely up to them, not God.
But, he
knew when he created them how they were gonna turn out, but still went ahead anyway. That kinda rips to shreds his omnibenvolence, doesn't it? And they have to act out their lives exactly as an omniscient, omnipotent God has written down for them, they cannot deviate from what he knows will happen.
Yes, Jesus condoned the despicable murder of millions of Jews! (His chosen people!) /sarcasm off. Please, be reasonable.
Huh? I'm outta the loop here. Where did I say that?
You need to stop thinking of Hell as a physical place.
Why wouldn't I, after all Jesus thinks it's real. If you don't beleive hell is a real place, you're calling your own messiah a liar. He constantly talked about the endless tortues of hell, the weeping and knashing of teeth.
God created hell as a place for Lucifer and his fallen host of angels, it was never intended for man.
I suppose you have biblical evidence to support this premise?
Because they make the decision themselves. No, it is not beyond His power, but he has made it our decision, not His own.
You're contradicting yourself here buddy. You say hell was never intended for man, now you claim that some end up there themselves. If that's the case, God cannot be all powerful. If he made hell not intending man to be there, yet some wind up there, shows he's not omnipotent. How can you blame humans for winding up in a place God created, as a result for not believeing in him, when he left 0 evidence of himself behind? I would think such a God would reward logical thinking. Maybe he just manufactered the bible too see how many
sheeple would blindly follow without any evidence?
