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Church is Misguided with their Emphasis on Homosexuality

soylentgreen said:
I do get the idea that you and probably some others are not focused entirely on harassing homosexuals. We could branch this into a discussion on all the other things considered sin or even discuss why sin itself is nothing more than a con game played by christians. But the subject here is on one particular alleged sin.
Not soft, trying to be more reasonable about it perhaps but still, as far as i am concerned, lacking in good reasoning.
About reading books. Your quoting the bible means nothing to me except of course on how you are approaching it. And as i have pointed out i have read the bible. Not as a believer but because of the words in another book i find of more value. The art war by sun tzu. allow me a quote.
I have read the bible, i know christianity.
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Saying "I know Christianity" without knowing Christ personally is like saying "I am a car mechanic" because you studied a manual.
It is disingenuous at best for you to come here and tell Christans how they should be acting as Christians when you aren't one, can't let yourself be one, and think it all a foolishness.
Why don't you just drop the facade and state your case on it's own merit? Leave Christ out of it, you obviously do not know Him.

...perhaps this is part of your war arts?
In this case you might win every battle, but you will lose the war because your enemy is Christ himself, and you've only professed to knowing about Christians.....
 
Cable said:
Saying "I know Christianity" without knowing Christ personally is like saying "I am a car mechanic" because you studied a manual.
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Difference in beliefs again. The roman catholic church would disagree with you as they hold the firm policy that jesus can only be found through their priests and not by direct knowledge or an ability to decide for yourself what jesus wants.

It is disingenuous at best for you to come here and tell Christans how they should be acting as Christians when you aren't one, can't let yourself be one, and think it all a foolishness.
Why don't you just drop the facade and state your case on it's own merit? Leave Christ out of it, you obviously do not know Him.
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You are correct, on your level, how you see it. I must look as if i am interfering. But then there are very few theists who are content to leave well enough alone while most are quite eager to force their beliefs on a secular world. It is also hypocritical of you to complain about me interfering when christians show no lack of enthusiasm to do the same.
I still think you are wrong on this though and that this comes from the fact that we live in different societies. Where as you live in a country where religion is important and does actually influence your society on many levels, i come from a society that does practice secularism and does it quite well. So this homophobic attitude that you and other christians have developed does not get any support where i am. It does where you are.


...perhaps this is part of your war arts?

In this case you might win every battle, but you will lose the war because your enemy is Christ himself, and you've only professed to knowing about Christians.....
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It is definitely a part of the war. Bit of a mistake there though that i should clear up. You said christian, and no, i do not know christians themselves. Each christian i come across i do attempt to treat as an ignostic first. Until they explain to me what their particular version of christianity is then i cannot really comment one way or another on the individual christians belief.

But christianity itself is such a diverse and messy belief system that i understand it as well as any person can. And even better than some christians i have met.

I would also like to point out that awhile ago you used the old cliche, hate the sin not the sinner, as your excuse. A great little cliche if your giving it out but a terrible one if you are on the receiving end. So when you say christian here i should point out that really it is not the christian we must hate, but the christianity.

How does that make you feel?
 
More in a bit. But how did you Progressives manage to get the phobia label on a sin? Am I also adulteraphobic? Fornicataphobic? Alcoholisaphobic? Murderaphobic? I don't agree with any of these lifestyle choices...
 
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Cable said:
More in a bit. But how did you Progressives manage to get the phobia label on a sin? Am I also adulteraphobic? Fornicataphobic? Alcoholisaphobic? Murderaphobic? I don't agree with any of these lifestyle choices...
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I do not know, you may be, that is for you to tell me not for me to guess about you.

The question i have is do you know what a phobia is or will you give me the usual laymans answer. Please define phobia as you understand it rather than me trying to teach you how to suck an egg.
 
soylentgreen said:
Difference in beliefs again. The roman catholic church would disagree with you as they hold the firm policy that jesus can only be found through their priests and not by direct knowledge or an ability to decide for yourself what jesus wants.

You are correct, on your level, how you see it. I must look as if i am interfering. But then there are very few theists who are content to leave well enough alone while most are quite eager to force their beliefs on a secular world. It is also hypocritical of you to complain about me interfering when christians show no lack of enthusiasm to do the same.
I still think you are wrong on this though and that this comes from the fact that we live in different societies. Where as you live in a country where religion is important and does actually influence your society on many levels, i come from a society that does practice secularism and does it quite well. So this homophobic attitude that you and other christians have developed does not get any support where i am. It does where you are.

It is definitely a part of the war. Bit of a mistake there though that i should clear up. You said christian, and no, i do not know christians themselves. Each christian i come across i do attempt to treat as an ignostic first. Until they explain to me what their particular version of christianity is then i cannot really comment one way or another on the individual christians belief.

But christianity itself is such a diverse and messy belief system that i understand it as well as any person can. And even better than some christians i have met.

I would also like to point out that awhile ago you used the old cliche, hate the sin not the sinner, as your excuse. A great little cliche if your giving it out but a terrible one if you are on the receiving end. So when you say christian here i should point out that really it is not the christian we must hate, but the christianity.

How does that make you feel?
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Now that I see past your "genuine" concern for setting things right, I can see all the little tactics, tricks, and techniques you use in your arguments. It's kind of sick really, to think you are just another lying type of Progressive who is out for their own agenda, not truth, but you pretend the world will be better for it. You have no idea.....
I would wish you well, but this is a war you can't help but lose on a personal level.
 
Cable said:
Now that I see past your "genuine" concern for setting things right, I can see all the little tactics, tricks, and techniques you use in your arguments. It's kind of sick really, to think you are just another lying type of Progressive who is out for their own agenda, not truth, but you pretend the world will be better for it. You have no idea.....
I would wish you well, but this is a war you can't help but lose on a personal level.
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While of course you are not doing the same because god is on your side?

Yeah, right!
 
Josie said:
Always Protestant, conservative churches.

I was thinking back this morning about this thread. I cannot think of more than 2 instances where homosexuality was talked about specifically in the thousands of sermons I've heard in my lifetime. Treating your spouse well, nurturing your spouse, listening to your spouse, discussing money matters together, dealing with your similarities and differences, how to raise your children, etc. were talked about hundreds (if not thousands) of times when talking about families.
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Then why do so many Christians spend their time concerned with LGTB rights, concerned they may have to bake a gay cake, and saying homosexuality is a sin? Not asking to be a smartass either. I just know it's impossible for some many people to have the same concerns by chance.
 
SheWolf said:
Then why do so many Christians spend their time concerned with LGTB rights, concerned they may have to bake a gay cake, and saying homosexuality is a sin? Not asking to be a smartass either. I just know it's impossible for some many people to have the same concerns by chance.
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They believe it is a sin and they believe that if they don't stand against sin in their country, then they're standing against God.

Yes, many of these people voted for the adulterer, crude-speaking, narcissist in office - I don't get it either.
 
Josie said:
They believe it is a sin and they believe that if they don't stand against sin in their country, then they're standing against God.

Yes, many of these people voted for the adulterer, crude-speaking, narcissist in office - I don't get it either.
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Thanks for explaining. Why do they think that? Is it in the bible or taught in church? And why do they defend freedom in other ways, as in, not making people help the poor. Greed, charity, feeding the hungry, etc. is an individual liberty, but gay wedding cannot happen.
 
SheWolf said:
Thanks for explaining. Why do they think that? Is it in the bible or taught in church?
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In the Bible it says that sexual immorality is a sin. Homosexuality was under the umbrella of "sexual immorality" historically.

SheWolf said:
And why do they defend freedom in other ways, as in, not making people help the poor.
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"Making" people help the poor? That's not what church or Jesus was about. You should give because you want to, not because you're forced to.

SheWolf said:
Greed, charity, feeding the hungry, etc. is an individual liberty, but gay wedding cannot happen.
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Giving to those in need and not being greedy are spoken about MUCH more than homosexuality in churches I've been too. I'm not sure what you mean by "individual liberty". That's more of a political term than religious.
 
Josie said:
They believe it is a sin and they believe that if they don't stand against sin in their country, then they're standing against God.
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The more I think about this concept, the less sense it makes to me.

All Christians will basically say everybody sins, including them. Knowing that, why do they need to stand against sin in the country... sin they are even not committing.. and why do they think if they don't do it, they are standing against God? Why would God judge you for the sins of somebody else in your country? It really makes no sense to me. If somebody else is committing a sin, it seems that is just their sin.

Second, this seems to imply some sins are greater than others. People in this country commit a lot of sins. A LOT. But we are talking about homosexuality atm, and that has Christian groups fired up. Why is LGTB culture war so intense given all the other sinning? :shrug:
 
SheWolf said:
The more I think about this concept, the less sense it makes to me.

All Christians will basically say everybody sins, including them. Knowing that, why do they need to stand against sin in the country... sin they are even not committing.. and why do they think if they don't do it, they are standing against God? Why would God judge you for the sins of somebody else in your country? It really makes no sense to me. If somebody else is committing a sin, it seems that is just their sin.

Second, this seems to imply some sins are greater than others. People in this country commit a lot of sins. A LOT. But we are talking about homosexuality atm, and that has Christian groups fired up. Why is LGTB culture war so intense given all the other sinning? :shrug:
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I dunno -- some people view it as a bigger sin than others because they think it's icky. :shrug:
 
SheWolf said:
All Christians will basically say everybody sins, including them. Knowing that, why do they need to stand against sin in the country... sin they are even not committing.. and why do they think if they don't do it, they are standing against God?
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First of all, your statement is incorrect. Churches that subscribe to the holiness movement do not believe that Christians sin (to be more precise, they believe it is rare for a Christian to sin). This includes the Church of the Nazarene, Freewill Baptist churches, and The Salvation Army, to name some of the bigger branches.

Now, as to the issue at hand. What they are standing against is the normalization of sin. Other things they consider sins are generally acknowledged to be wrong. There isn't a large movement in the US to get people to accept murder or theft as lifestyle choices and, while there is a small contingent of swingers out there, there isn't a strong movement to make adultery or open marriages normal either. When society tries to normalize a sin, the church does take strong stances against it even if it is sins (like pornography and fornication) that they struggle with themselves. In the 1960s, there was a "free love" movement which the church did, unsuccessfully, take a stand against. They've taken strong stances against pornography and casual sex, even boycotting Hollywood on numerous occasions and attempting to ban pornography as recently as in last year's official Republican Party platform. They haven't been very successful in those fights either. The pattern is that they stand up against the normalization of things that were once considered wrong.

As for why they think they are standing against God if they don't do it, I don't believe that they do. I don't believe that to be a widely held view and am unsure where you got it from.
 
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CrabCake said:
First of all, your statement is incorrect. Churches that subscribe to the holiness movement do not believe that Christians sin (to be more precise, they believe it is rare for a Christian to sin). This includes the Church of the Nazarene, Freewill Baptist churches, and The Salvation Army, to name some of the bigger branches.
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What's the "holiness movement"? I've never heard of a Christian saying they never or very rarely sin.

CrabCake said:
As for why they think they are standing against God if they don't do it, I don't believe that they do. I don't believe that to be a widely held view and am unsure where you got it from.
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I'm the one who said that. I believe the Christians I know and have been around my entire life feel as though they will be seen as standing against God if they don't stand against things like gay marriage.
 
Josie said:
What's the "holiness movement"? I've never heard of a Christian saying they never or very rarely sin.
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It's a Wesleyan movement that teaches that sanctification can be completed in this life. As previously mentioned, there are large denominations which subscribe to this theology.


Josie said:
I'm the one who said that. I believe the Christians I know and have been around my entire life feel as though they will be seen as standing against God if they don't stand against things like gay marriage.
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That has not been my experience. I have no reason to believe yours is normative and mine isn't (or vice versa for that matter, but I prefer not to assign views to groups unless I am fairly certain that the views I am assigning to them are, in fact, normative for that group).
 
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soylentgreen said:
...

But christianity itself is such a diverse and messy belief system that i understand it as well as any person can. And even better than some christians i have met.

... So when you say christian here i should point out that really it is not the christian we must hate, but the christianity.
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The one you are really hating is Christ. I'm not sure whether you realize it or not. You probably do but aren't bold enough to say it outright.

Anyway, I did finally find a quote from the Bible that seems to support your take on it all:

[URL="http://biblehub.com/esv/genesis/3.htm"]4But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.[/URL]
 
Cable said:
The one you are really hating is Christ. I'm not sure whether you realize it or not. You probably do but aren't bold enough to say it outright.

Anyway, I did finally find a quote from the Bible that seems to support your take on it all:

[URL="http://biblehub.com/esv/genesis/3.htm"]4But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.[/URL]
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I realise that quite well. I really have no patience with you fake gods. I am a militant atheist. But not so much in my own country where religion and spirituality exist but do not have the same nasty influence that they have in america.

Your quote does not surprise me. As i have said the bible is such a badly written book that one can interpret anything they want from it.

However, i was wondering how you might feel about a slight change of subject. That is if our conversation so far has not soured you completely how would you feel about my asking for some, not so much as advice bu more an opinion about something. The two christians who are friends that i mentioned earlier have created a bit of a problem for me on a spiritual matter. It's not so much a problem as a it is a conflict of interests. Would you mind?
 
soylentgreen said:
I realise that quite well. I really have no patience with you fake gods. I am a militant atheist. But not so much in my own country where religion and spirituality exist but do not have the same nasty influence that they have in america.

Your quote does not surprise me. As i have said the bible is such a badly written book that one can interpret anything they want from it.

However, i was wondering how you might feel about a slight change of subject. That is if our conversation so far has not soured you completely how would you feel about my asking for some, not so much as advice bu more an opinion about something. The two christians who are friends that i mentioned earlier have created a bit of a problem for me on a spiritual matter. It's not so much a problem as a it is a conflict of interests. Would you mind?
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I am not sour at all. If I can help I'd be happy to, but it doesn't seem likely.
 
Cable said:
I am not sour at all. If I can help I'd be happy to, but it doesn't seem likely.
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Not so much help I have dealt with the problem but in a way i feel bad about it.

The woman sent us an email. Her sister has cancer. She has asked us to join in on a prayer chain for her sister. i assume you understand this kind of thing.

My reaction as an atheist is it really is a waste of time. Obviously prayer means nothing to me. I did not want to say i would do it because it would either be a lie and i do not do it or i just put in a half arsed effort and then feel a bit of a hypocrite praying to god i do not even think exists.

Should i have lied and said i would? It would be a comfort for them though uncomfortable to me. Or as i did which is send my condolences and wish the sister a speedy recovery but say no to a prayer because it is not a thing for me.

I have put this on anopen forum and do not mind who answers. I am still not sure what was the right thing to do there. Lie and give some comfort or not.
 
soylentgreen said:
Not so much help I have dealt with the problem but in a way i feel bad about it.

The woman sent us an email. Her sister has cancer. She has asked us to join in on a prayer chain for her sister. i assume you understand this kind of thing.

My reaction as an atheist is it really is a waste of time. Obviously prayer means nothing to me. I did not want to say i would do it because it would either be a lie and i do not do it or i just put in a half arsed effort and then feel a bit of a hypocrite praying to god i do not even think exists.

Should i have lied and said i would? It would be a comfort for them though uncomfortable to me. Or as i did which is send my condolences and wish the sister a speedy recovery but say no to a prayer because it is not a thing for me.

I have put this on anopen forum and do not mind who answers. I am still not sure what was the right thing to do there. Lie and give some comfort or not.
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Why not just send your condolences and leave it at that? You don't have to say yay or nay on the prayer, right?
But one day you will probably pray.
 
Cable said:
Why not just send your condolences and leave it at that? You don't have to say yay or nay on the prayer, right?
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Because it was not just my condolences that was asked for.

Although prayer is not for me i can appreciate that it means something to theists. She was asking for something that was special to her and it would have not been right to just ignore that request.


But one day you will probably pray.
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That i suspect is the crux of the matter. Theists, they just cannot help themselves, any opportunity arises to convert someone and they are in. It's like eating peanuts for you guys, you just can't stop at one.
 
soylentgreen said:
Because it was not just my condolences that was asked for.
Although prayer is not for me i can appreciate that it means something to theists. She was asking for something that was special to her and it would have not been right to just ignore that request.
That i suspect is the crux of the matter. Theists, they just cannot help themselves, any opportunity arises to convert someone and they are in. It's like eating peanuts for you guys, you just can't stop at one.
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LOL, so you think she used it as a witnessing opportunity? I wouldn't think that at all, but I don't know the specifics.
When tragedy strikes I tend to think everyone is a Christian around me. It's a grace really, but you can get defensive about it. :\
 
Cable said:
LOL, so you think she used it as a witnessing opportunity? I wouldn't think that at all, but I don't know the specifics.
When tragedy strikes I tend to think everyone is a Christian around me. It's a grace really, but you can get defensive about it. :\
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No i do not think she did but that comment of yours that one day i might pray sure sounded like one.
For her i really have no idea why she would ask me, she knows i am an atheist.

Perhaps she does the same as you. i had not thought of that. Thanks for the insight.
 
soylentgreen said:
No i do not think she did but that comment of yours that one day i might pray sure sounded like one.
For her i really have no idea why she would ask me, she knows i am an atheist.

Perhaps she does the same as you. i had not thought of that. Thanks for the insight.
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Your plight is interesting to me, not this particular circumstance, but the overall atheist outlook on life.
I used to be an atheist, I think agnostic atheist might be the best description.
I studied Buddhism, Taoism and the Bible, looking for something.
I am starting to understand now that it was an emotional need. I used to think that meant weakness, but have come to learn that emotion IS the part of life that fulfills us all.
It can certainly be a detriment when emotions are unhealthy or distort reality. But in general we all want to feel emotionally good about our lives and ourselves.

To me, emotional needs are the very thing that point to the existence of God in my life.
The things Christ said were so unnatural, uncommon, and unique. And they seem to answer my emotional needs completely, something no other spiritual study or absence of spiritual awareness were able to do.

I struggle today with trying to understand how atheists get their emotional needs met. It just seems to me, if you believe there is no God, what is the point of life?
Not that I think I would kill myself without God, but I would have a more pragmatic look at my own life in relation to all life. Perhaps a more selfish view.
After all, in the long run we are all dead from the atheist point of view. Dead dead.

I think I have made it clear that I personally don't think we will ever make our world better. We look at history, and we look at the evening news, and we can see that our world and people are absolutely no better than they have ever been, give or take the fairly minute pendulum swings where things get slightly better or worse relative to time.
For me heaven will be where things are absolutely made right, according to Christ. And that 'right' is our ultimate human existence as I understand it. We were built for that state by God.

So you admit you are in a sort of 'war' with believers. To what end? Do you hope one day that all will be unbelievers like you? Will the world be better then? If so, how?
 
Cable said:
Your plight is interesting to me, not this particular circumstance, but the overall atheist outlook on life.
I used to be an atheist, I think agnostic atheist might be the best description.
I studied Buddhism, Taoism and the Bible, looking for something.
I am starting to understand now that it was an emotional need. I used to think that meant weakness, but have come to learn that emotion IS the part of life that fulfills us all.
It can certainly be a detriment when emotions are unhealthy or distort reality. But in general we all want to feel emotionally good about our lives and ourselves.

To me, emotional needs are the very thing that point to the existence of God in my life.
The things Christ said were so unnatural, uncommon, and unique. And they seem to answer my emotional needs completely, something no other spiritual study or absence of spiritual awareness were able to do.

I struggle today with trying to understand how atheists get their emotional needs met. It just seems to me, if you believe there is no God, what is the point of life?
Not that I think I would kill myself without God, but I would have a more pragmatic look at my own life in relation to all life. Perhaps a more selfish view.
After all, in the long run we are all dead from the atheist point of view. Dead dead.

I think I have made it clear that I personally don't think we will ever make our world better. We look at history, and we look at the evening news, and we can see that our world and people are absolutely no better than they have ever been, give or take the fairly minute pendulum swings where things get slightly better or worse relative to time.
For me heaven will be where things are absolutely made right, according to Christ. And that 'right' is our ultimate human existence as I understand it. We were built for that state by God.

So you admit you are in a sort of 'war' with believers. To what end? Do you hope one day that all will be unbelievers like you? Will the world be better then? If so, how?
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Well, there is something known as 'compassion, altruism, and connection to the community' that many atheists feel without the need of being directed by God. It also is an emotional reaction too. It is just that their emotional needs do not need the idea of of a creator. If you look at it as 'different people resolve their emotional needs in different ways', then it is just different solutions to the same issue. And, when it comes to belief in God, or the disbelief in God, it's an emotional solution to emotional needs.

Now, some people are more selfish with a disbelief in God. Others are not. For contemplation about this, there is a Chassidic story about 'why did God create atheists'

There is a famous story told in Chassidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.

One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all — the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs and act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching. He does not believe that god commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality. And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.”

“This means,” the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say ‘I will help you.’”

ETA source: Tales of Hasidim Vol. 2 by Mar
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