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Church is Misguided with their Emphasis on Homosexuality

Your plight is interesting to me, not this particular circumstance, but the overall atheist outlook on life.
I used to be an atheist, I think agnostic atheist might be the best description.
Where as in my case i have always been an atheist god never made any sense to me.
I studied Buddhism, Taoism and the Bible, looking for something.
The same with me, i have also gone down that road. Tried all the religions, talked to the believers, stood on a hill ans swallowed all the right drugs and looked up at the universe and nothing. Even the tree i was standing next to agreed that it was an awesome universe but still no god.
I am starting to understand now that it was an emotional need. I used to think that meant weakness, but have come to learn that emotion IS the part of life that fulfills us all.
It can certainly be a detriment when emotions are unhealthy or distort reality. But in general we all want to feel emotionally good about our lives and ourselves. To me, emotional needs are the very thing that point to the existence of God in my life.
Absolutely agree. God is in fact an emotional need nothing more.
The things Christ said were so unnatural, uncommon, and unique. And they seem to answer my emotional needs completely, something no other spiritual study or absence of spiritual awareness were able to do.
Here i disagree. There is not one thing in that bible that is an original thought. It is in fact a good bit of evidence that christianity is nothing more than theft. it is just retelling of old superstitions rearranged to fit the christian model.
I struggle today with trying to understand how atheists get their emotional needs met. It just seems to me, if you believe there is no God, what is the point of life?
Not that I think I would kill myself without God, but I would have a more pragmatic look at my own life in relation to all life. Perhaps a more selfish view.
After all, in the long run we are all dead from the atheist point of view. Dead dead.
I am as human as anyone. There are days that i do wonder what if anything will happen after death. There are others where oblivion seems fine to me. After all, it is not as if i will have to be there to enjoy it, which is the whole point of oblivion.
I think I have made it clear that I personally don't think we will ever make our world better. We look at history, and we look at the evening news, and we can see that our world and people are absolutely no better than they have ever been, give or take the fairly minute pendulum swings where things get slightly better or worse relative to time.
For me heaven will be where things are absolutely made right, according to Christ. And that 'right' is our ultimate human existence as I understand it. We were built for that state by God.
Again i lean towards a marxist materialist world view. Utopia is an anathema to me.
So you admit you are in a sort of 'war' with believers. To what end? Do you hope one day that all will be unbelievers like you? Will the world be better then? If so, how?

That is not quite correct. I am and do declare quite openly, that i war with religion and its main force the church.
\But i also make a distinction between the words spiritual and religion.
A persons spiritual needs or beliefs i usually have no problem with. Religion and church though, quite happily burn it to the ground and then salt the earth it stood on.
 
Some churches do that --- not all.

I am sure there are some that have unpaid ministries and staffs, but am guessing they are the minority.
 
I am sure there are some that have unpaid ministries and staffs, but am guessing they are the minority.

The vast majority of pastors (about 80%) are bi-vocational, meaning that, while they may view being a pastor as their primary job, they have a second job which actually pays the bills. As for the ministries themselves, most ministries are run by volunteers since churches try to keep paid staff down to a minimum (somewhere between 1 for every 75 members to 1 for every 150 members).

People don't go into ministry to get rich. They spend a lot of money learning a great deal about things no one cares about, and becoming a real expert in things untrained people all think they are already experts on; in order to obtain employment in a low paying, high-stress career field. Pursuing a career in ministry in order to make money makes less sense than pursuing a career in elementary school education with the same goal.
 
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The vast majority of pastors (about 80%) are bi-vocational, meaning that, while they may view being a pastor as their primary job, they have a second job which actually pays the bills. As for the ministries themselves, most ministries are run by volunteers since churches try to keep paid staff down to a minimum (somewhere between 1 for every 75 members to 1 for every 150 members).

People don't go into ministry to get rich. They spend a lot of money learning a great deal about things no one cares about, and becoming a real expert in things untrained people all think they are already experts on; in order to obtain employment in a low paying, high-stress career field. Pursuing a career in ministry in order to make money makes less sense than pursuing a career in elementary school education with the same goal.

Very perceptive sir, unless you have been there yourself, then you know it's not just perception.
 
The vast majority of pastors (about 80%) are bi-vocational, meaning that, while they may view being a pastor as their primary job, they have a second job which actually pays the bills. As for the ministries themselves, most ministries are run by volunteers since churches try to keep paid staff down to a minimum (somewhere between 1 for every 75 members to 1 for every 150 members).

People don't go into ministry to get rich. They spend a lot of money learning a great deal about things no one cares about, and becoming a real expert in things untrained people all think they are already experts on; in order to obtain employment in a low paying, high-stress career field. Pursuing a career in ministry in order to make money makes less sense than pursuing a career in elementary school education with the same goal.

And what about the other 20%? Selling an invisible product sounds like an awesome way to make a living

There are mega churches and scam artists who rake in millions, unlike any elementary teacher i've ever heard of. Look at scientology, tv preachers, and mormon higher ups for instance

Your argument sounds more like what Obama said at the NAACP, to not devote one's life to rapping and basketball, because it's unlikely to pay off...but it's a gamble like anything and it does pay off very well for some
 
And what about the other 20%? Selling an invisible product sounds like an awesome way to make a living

The other 20% do ministry full time. They still tend to make less money than those with a similar position in the business world. It's a great way to make money if you do it because you love to help people; if you're doing it for money you are better off working for a corporation.

There are mega churches and scam artists who rake in millions, unlike any elementary teacher i've ever heard of. Look at scientology, tv preachers, and mormon higher ups for instance

Sure, and those people are in charge of massive organizations. They perform the functions of a CEO and are typically paid far less than CEOs in the commercial world are. Even for those people, in the vast majority of cases, it would have been better for them financially had they worked their way up to CEO of a corporation than working their way up to lead pastor of a mega-church.

Your argument sounds more like what Obama said at the NAACP, to not devote one's life to rapping and basketball, because it's unlikely to pay off...but it's a gamble like anything and it does pay off very well for some

Monetarily, it really doesn't. Pastors of mega-churches are as busy as any other CEO of any other multi-million dollar corporation, often make less money than their counterparts in the business world and are under a lot more stress and a lot more scrutiny. Even if you could be guaranteed leadership of a mega-church, if what you cared about is money, you would be better off being the CEO of something else, not a church.
 
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The other 20% do ministry full time. They still tend to make less money than those with a similar position in the business world. It's a great way to make money if you do it because you love to help people; if you're doing it for money you are better off working for a corporation.

No crap but now you're comparing disparate skill sets. Memorizing the bible and talking points does not necessarily translate to a career in accounting or finance, had they pursued that instead. Besides, your initial comparison was elementary teacher, which i bet most of those 20% do out-earn


Sure, and those people are in charge of massive organizations. They perform the functions of a CEO and are typically paid far less than CEOs in the commercial world are. Even for those people, in the vast majority of cases, it would have been better for them financially had they worked their way up to CEO of a corporation than working their way up to lead pastor of a mega-church.

Again, different skill set, different in roads. The CEOs you seem to have in mind are like Trump and have tens of millions handed to them from birth. Most televangelists do not have that option

Monetarily, it really doesn't. Pastors of mega-churches are as busy as any other CEO of any other multi-million dollar corporation, often make less money than their counterparts in the business world and are under a lot more stress and a lot more scrutiny. Even if you could be guaranteed leadership of a mega-church, if what you cared about is money, you would be better off being the CEO of something else, not a church.

Being busy and stressed out has nothing to do with income fairness or opportunity. Otherwise the double shift factory worker, or even premed student, would be earning more than the CEO or the televangelist. Why didn't the factory worker become CEO instead? Seems like a wiser choice. Of course there's more to it

The issue here is that the wealthy preachers saw an opportunity to cash in, maybe speaking in tongues or whatever (again, tends to not translate to corporate world) despite their founder and savior seems to have abhorred wealth. And then, like Billy Graham said recently, they claim that gay people can't be Christian at all. This despite their founder and savior never even mentioned the subject and they welcome adulterers, gluttonous, wealthy and whatnot with open arms
 
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A few observations:

Absolutely agree. God is in fact an emotional need nothing more.

This is a huge assumption on your part and not factually based. God could very well be a reality, and that is what us believers are staking our eternal souls on. You can dismiss God as unlikely for yourself, but you can't factually dismiss Him in reality.
I understand you don't need God. Probably most of us would that we were in charge rather than God. It is seemingly our natural state. An overly healthy arrogance it is, but such is humanity.

Here i disagree. There is not one thing in that bible that is an original thought. It is in fact a good bit of evidence that Christianity is nothing more than theft. it is just retelling of old superstitions rearranged to fit the christian model.

This is just BS (pardon my bluntness). I've had several try to claim this, and their supporting data was so weak as to cause them to slink away quietly.
If you can support the claim it would be interesting to read. I notice you set it up so that it is a very broad generalized dismissal, yet you seem proud to hang your hat on it.



That is not quite correct. I am and do declare quite openly, that i war with religion and its main force the church.
\But i also make a distinction between the words spiritual and religion.
A persons spiritual needs or beliefs i usually have no problem with. Religion and church though, quite happily burn it to the ground and then salt the earth it stood on.

This one is interesting to me in the distinction you draw. Christ said that the true worshipers worship in spirit and truth, and also that WE are the church, not a building. So you seem to be after the buildings and hierarchies like the Catholics or protestant, or others, but content to leave folks like me alone who realize that I am the church, and have a spiritual relationship with Christ directly.
 
No crap but now you're comparing disparate skill sets. Memorizing the bible and talking points does not necessarily translate to a career in accounting or finance, had they pursued that instead.

That's not what pastors do. Pastors run a church. Running a church is not unlike running any other organization. It involves everything from budgeting and accounting to human resource management, project management, marketing, and maintenance. In addition to running the church, they also do: preaching (a skill the business world calls "public speaking"), counseling, mentoring, and other more directly "ministry" oriented things like officiating weddings and funerals.

Most of their skills translate directly into the workforce and nearly any other job that required them to use such a skillset would pay better.

Besides, your initial comparison was elementary teacher, which i bet most of those 20% do out-earn

They make about the same.
Pastor Salary
Elementary School Teacher Salary

Again, different skill set, different in roads. The CEOs you seem to have in mind are like Trump and have tens of millions handed to them from birth. Most televangelists do not have that option

They share the exact same skillset because a pastor is, in fact, the CEO of his organization. A pastor of a small church performs the same functions as the CEO of a small business; a pastor of a mega-church performs the same functions as a CEO of a mega-corporation. In addition to performing the same functions, pastors perform functions that corporate CEOs do not; they officiate weddings and funerals, provide counseling, mentor, teach, etc..

Most people, rich or not, could never be the CEO of a mega-corporation or the lead pastor of a mega-church. There's no difference there either.
Being busy and stressed out has nothing to do with income fairness or opportunity. Otherwise the double shift factory worker, or even premed student, would be earning more than the CEO or the televangelist. Why didn't the factory worker become CEO instead? Seems like a wiser choice. Of course there's more to it

Of course it doesn't, which is why I compared apples to apples. I compared a business leader to a church leader; both are leaders with an equivalent position in their respective industries.

If you are comparing apples to apples, then the level of stress a job puts you in is a factor to be considered in deciding whether to pursue that career. The business world tends to be less stressful than the church world.
 
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A few observations: This is a huge assumption on your part and not factually based. God could very well be a reality,
You did not think that one through, did you? It's an assumption on my part but you only think he could very well be true. I am assuming but your guessing, Hmmmm!


and that is what us believers are staking our eternal souls on. You can dismiss God as unlikely for yourself, but you can't factually dismiss Him in reality.
I understand you don't need God. Probably most of us would that we were in charge rather than God. It is seemingly our natural state. An overly healthy arrogance it is, but such is humanity.
I actually can dismiss him in reality. The problem is entirely with theists, not reality. This is really nothing more than taking a fictional character and insisting it is real. People do that, not the reality around us.


This is just BS (pardon my bluntness). I've had several try to claim this, and their supporting data was so weak as to cause them to slink away quietly.
If you can support the claim it would be interesting to read. I notice you set it up so that it is a very broad generalized dismissal, yet you seem proud to hang your hat on it.
I have made a few weak atheists slink away in my time too, not that hard. The evidence is clearly written in other stories that precede the writing of the bible. It exists in the fact that many of the dates given in the bible are a cover for pagan rituals that have been converted to christian beliefs. The birth of jesus being one of the more obvious ones.
This one is interesting to me in the distinction you draw. Christ said that the true worshipers worship in spirit and truth, and also that WE are the church, not a building. So you seem to be after the buildings and hierarchies like the Catholics or protestant, or others, but content to leave folks like me alone who realize that I am the church, and have a spiritual relationship with Christ directly.

You have to keep in mind that i disregard what appears to be nothing more than the superstitions covering this whole mess. Where as theists lean towards the godidit answer for everything there is with no doubt, a secular reason for these things.
Theists would most likely argue somewhere along the lines that religion came into existence because there is a god. Understandable but still nothing more than there own continuation of a superstition.
There is another explanation though. Have you ever heard of Gobekli Tepe?
I am not going into detail unless you really want to explore this, so here is a quick synopsis.
Gobekli Tepe, the oldest temple so far discovered. No coincidence that appears around the time also that man began to change from thousands and thousands of years of nothing more than a nomadic tribal existence into the very first attempts to create civilisation. A look at the temple demonstrates it is also an example where belief changed from spiritual worship to religion. Or in other words man went from being just one more spirit among the thousands of animal and plant spirit to becoming as god has put it, having dominion over the animals and plants of the earth.

In order for civilisation to actually begin a unifying force was needed. Religion was that force. Religion is really nothing more than a means of joining people together and gaining control over them.

Now days we of course have many other good reasons to continue a civilisation and many other means of unifying people. Religion is passe, not needed but some hang onto it for whatever power and ability to make others follow them it can give.
 
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It exists in the fact that many of the dates given in the bible are a cover for pagan rituals that have been converted to christian beliefs. The birth of jesus being one of the more obvious ones.

Where, in the bible, can I find a date for the birth of Jesus?
 
Where, in the bible, can I find a date for the birth of Jesus?

Not an exact date, but there are two places that talk about events that happened.

THe first one is talking about Herod killing all the innocent babies. Herod the King died in 4 bce.

The second one was when the census took place under Quintarsis. Despite the unsupported claim that he was governor twice (there is no evidence he was), that happened in 6 CE, when Judah became directly under Roman rule.

However, that isn't what Soylentgreen was talking about. The celebration of Jesus on what was at the time the winter Solstice was a very common date for religious ceremonies, which celebrated the Sun returning... and the specific date is not in the bible.There were a number of pagan ceremonies celebrated at the winter soltice, and it had symbolic meaning to many.

A case can be made that Christmas usurp the date, because people were used to and wanted their solstice festival.
 
Where, in the bible, can I find a date for the birth of Jesus?

Sigh! You should perhaps try reading the bible. It of course does not come with a date much as it does not come with a date for the beginning of the creation of earth and yet creationists have no problem coming up with the mark of 6,000 years. Would you like to know how they managed to figure that out? Here is a clue, they read the bible and worked it out. Here is your clue though, try Luke 2:8-9.
 
It of course does not come with a date

So, when you said:

soylentgreen said:
It exists in the fact that many of the dates given in the bible are a cover for pagan rituals that have been converted to christian beliefs. The birth of jesus being one of the more obvious ones.

You were providing "alternative facts"?
 
So, when you said:



You were providing "alternative facts"?

Right! so this is not so much as an intelligent rebuttal to the point that the bible is simply a theft of other peoples stories but instead an example of someone being rather pedantic over a word.

I am very impressed you caught me out on the use of a word. Demonstrates a well developed ability to ignore the argument.
 
When it comes to the issue of a strong cohesive family structure, the Christian church of America spends 99% of their time blaming homosexuals for deteriorating family values, and 1% of their time blaming adultery and divorce. Adultery is the main reason for the high American divorce rate. Adultery goes against one of the ten commandments, and yet it is largely ignored by political organizations such as Focus on the Family and the Christian Coalition, while much emphasis is placed on homosexuality.

Homosexuals comprise less than 3% of our population, while the divorce rate is over 50%.

You want to get under the skin of the average Christian, just remind them that remarriage after divorce is fundamentally the same thing as homosexuality, each are living in sexual sin. In the eyes of God, sin is sin.

Matthew 19:9
Divorce and Remarriage
 
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So, when you said:

You were providing "alternative facts"?

No, he speaks the truth.... Christ was not born on Christmas. It is fundamentally a "made up" holiday to celebrate the birth of Christ. The brilliant marketers down at the vatican high-jacked a pagan holiday celebrating the winter solstice and declared it the day Christ was born.

The Shocking Pagan Origin of CHRISTMAS!
 
Right! so this is not so much as an intelligent rebuttal to the point that the bible is simply a theft of other peoples stories but instead an example of someone being rather pedantic over a word.

Which word is that? Show me the word that, once replaced, will fix your statement and make it true.

I'm not being pedantic, your claim was just wrong. The whole argument was wrong.

It's not wrong because you mistakenly used the wrong word. It's wrong because you made a claim that was untrue. You claimed the bible provides many dates which match up with pagan rituals and Christmas was an example of that. That claim is untrue.

Could it be that you misspoke? It's possible. I find it more likely that you genuinely believed your claim to be true and are horrified to discover it isn't.

upsideguy said:
No, he speaks the truth.... Christ was not born on Christmas. It is fundamentally a "made up" holiday to celebrate the birth of Christ. The brilliant marketers down at the vatican high-jacked a pagan holiday celebrating the winter solstice and declared it the day Christ was born

That wasn't his claim. His claim was that this is one of many dates the bible gives which are covering up pagan rituals. The bible doesn't give a date for the birth of Christ. The date for celebrating the birth of Christ was determined in the 4th century whereas the last book of the bible was written in the 2nd. It's like claiming that Veterans day was established by Thomas Jefferson. It's a laughably nonsensical claim since over 2 centuries separate the life of Thomas Jefferson from the establishment of Veterans day, the same amount of time that separates the last book of the bible from the establishment of a date for Christmas.
 
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Which word is that? Show me the word that, once replaced, will fix your statement and make it true.
So your not just carrying on about the fact that i used the word date. I am guessing you are now desperately trying to back track on your first post to me where you asked for a date.

I'm not being pedantic, your claim was just wrong. The whole argument was wrong.
Post #162 " Where, in the bible, can I find a date for the birth of Jesus?"
Not being pedantic over the word date? Who are you trying to kid?

It's not wrong because you mistakenly used the wrong word. It's wrong because you made a claim that was untrue. You claimed the bible provides many dates which match up with pagan rituals and Christmas was an example of that. That claim is untrue.
So your not concentrating on the word date . But instead simply pointing to a word date to say that the whole idea that the bible is theft is wrong. Would you like me to post a dictionary definition of the word pedantic?

Could it be that you misspoke? It's possible. I find it more likely that you genuinely believed your claim to be true and are horrified to discover it isn't.
Could be. If it is this important to you to disregard the whole argument for the sake of the use of one word then perhaps i had better, merely for the reason that we could possibly get on with the actual debate instead of wasting time over the use of a word that really changes nothing of the main thrust of the argument.

That wasn't his claim. His claim was that this is one of many dates the bible gives which are covering up pagan rituals. The bible doesn't give a date for the birth of Christ. The date for celebrating the birth of Christ was determined in the 4th century whereas the last book of the bible was written in the 2nd. It's like claiming that Veterans day was established by Thomas Jefferson. It's a laughably nonsensical claim since over 2 centuries separate the life of Thomas Jefferson from the establishment of Veterans day, the same amount of time that separates the last book of the bible from the establishment of a date for Christmas.

Very good. So basically you are advertising the fact that not only have you not read the bible but as well do not understand that this argument is about what is written in the bible itself. Not when it was written.
 
When it comes to the issue of a strong cohesive family structure, the Christian church of America spends 99% of their time blaming homosexuals for deteriorating family values, and 1% of their time blaming adultery and divorce. Adultery is the main reason for the high American divorce rate. Adultery goes against one of the ten commandments, and yet it is largely ignored by political organizations such as Focus on the Family and the Christian Coalition, while much emphasis is placed on homosexuality.

Homosexuals comprise less than 3% of our population, while the divorce rate is over 50%.

The megachurches in the United States are market places for hateful rhetoric. They are just corporate opportunists providing a service. In other words, the rhetoric exists because there is still a demand for it. You won't find the same megachurches in places like Europe or Canada because they don't have the same audience. American culture is still backward in many ways, as evidenced by how long it has taken some States to reverse old school laws restricting races or genders.
 
The megachurches in the United States are market places for hateful rhetoric. They are just corporate opportunists providing a service. In other words, the rhetoric exists because there is still a demand for it. You won't find the same megachurches in places like Europe or Canada because they don't have the same audience. American culture is still backward in many ways, as evidenced by how long it has taken some States to reverse old school laws restricting races or genders.

All things aside, it is interesting that unbelievers are attempting to school christians on the biblical case for homosexuality when they don't accept the Bible as God's inspired word, nor do they accept Christ.
Do these people have any relevant thing to say on God's word? Nah.
 
All things aside, it is interesting that unbelievers are attempting to school christians on the biblical case for homosexuality when they don't accept the Bible as God's inspired word, nor do they accept Christ.
Do these people have any relevant thing to say on God's word? Nah.

That does ignore the fact as i have pointed out that theists themselves will disagree on what the bible has to say. You forget that it is really a case of we are all atheists. The only difference with unbelievers is that they are atheists about one more god than believers are.
 
All things aside, it is interesting that unbelievers are attempting to school christians on the biblical case for homosexuality when they don't accept the Bible as God's inspired word, nor do they accept Christ.
Do these people have any relevant thing to say on God's word? Nah.

I'm an ex-Catholic who shares similar opinions to non-Christians.

You don't have to be a believer to critique the way some Christians operate. It's patently obvious what Jesus' message to the world was, and a lot of Christians don't follow that.
 
So your not just carrying on about the fact that i used the word date.

Nope. The word has nothing to do with it. The statement itself was factually incorrect no matter which words you had used. You actually believed that the bible contains many dates which were chosen to cover up pagan practices. That claim is factually incorrect.

Very good. So basically you are advertising the fact that not only have you not read the bible but as well do not understand that this argument is about what is written in the bible itself. Not when it was written.

That's a bizarre conclusion. You made claims about things being in the bible which aren't actually in the bible but arose centuries later. If you were only arguing about what is in the bible, then the fact that what contain what you claimed it contains is very relevant.

I demonstrated to everyone reading this thread what your level of biblical and historical literacy is. Now they know that when you make statements about the bible or Christianity, these aren't coming from someone with a firm grasp of the bible and church history, but rather they are coming from a person who doesn't actually know which Christian traditions are in the bible and which arose centuries later.
 
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