When religious leaders hit the wall

Celebrity · Sep 10, 2016

I Googled "leaving the Christian Church" to learn more about how exiting from the Church can impact Christians. The first hit is an article from 2006 which discusses the spiritual journey which Christians go on during their membership in a church. I think this also includes a parish, or a community, since some Christians are well known to participate in church events.

This article is dated, but it poses a relevant question. Do followers of Christ outgrow the Church? Logistically speaking, this doesn't mean joining another church, but speaks to the growing number of Christians who do not attend a church on a regular basis. Followers of Christ do not outgrow the Church. The reason why people stop attending religious services (except perhaps on holidays) is that they grow away from the Church as an institution.

As far as I know, the number of Christians is growing, and possibly growing faster than the global population. That means that there is some net positive conversion. Why are these spiritual pilgrims continuing their journey outside of the Church? There are various reasons why one might want to be superficially spiritual. Membership to a community is an important part of being human, even within the greater societal collection of communities. Christians don't want to slip through the cracks, while diminishing their commitment to the hub of their spiritual community. These may even be people who grow the Church through regular donations, but fail to attend services on a regular basis.

I am one of these Christians. I am not, nor have I ever been a member of the Church. I don't blame religious leaders for not recruiting me, and as a non-member of the Church, I cannot be retained. I place significantly more weight on secular life, which is why I spend my time and energy on secular groups. Can anyone who is a member of the Church, past or present attest to the burn out that exists in the lives of spiritual teachers?

Exit Stage Left: Why the Spiritually Mature are Leaving the Church | CT Pastors

MrPeanut · Sep 10, 2016

Christianity is not growing relative to the world's population. The link you placed for the growing number of Christians is stating that there are 3 times the amount of Christians in 2010 as there were in 1910. If you were to take that number and use it as a percentage of world's population the number of Christians has decreased. I think that a lot of modern Christians don't feel the need to go to a church because they feel like as long as they believe in God everything is fine. There is also a lot less social stigma attached to not attending church services. In my opinion, advances in science and a changing culture has made Christians less strictly adherent to conventional Christian values like church attendance and a host of other issues that used to be harshly condemned.

Fishking · Sep 10, 2016

I'm a Christian and I don't attend regularly due to my own failings. Being a member of a community helps you grow and you have a tendency to drift outside of it. I don't know why I don't go regularly. I want to, but it doesn't happen.

Celebrity · Sep 10, 2016

MrPeanut said:
Christianity is not growing relative to the world's population. The link you placed for the growing number of Christians is stating that there are 3 times the amount of Christians in 2010 as there were in 1910. If you were to take that number and use it as a percentage of world's population the number of Christians has decreased. I think that a lot of modern Christians don't feel the need to go to a church because they feel like as long as they believe in God everything is fine. There is also a lot less social stigma attached to not attending church services. In my opinion, advances in science and a changing culture has made Christians less strictly adherent to conventional Christian values like church attendance and a host of other issues that used to be harshly condemned.

I was referring to the (short term) statistic from a time period entirely contained by past century:

From 1960 to 2000, the global growth of the number of reported Evangelicals grew three times the world's population rate, and twice that of Islam.

It doesn't look like Catholics are growing in number as much as Evangelicals.
Is the Catholic Church Experiencing Exponential Growth or Declining? - World Religion News

CrabCake · Sep 12, 2016

Celebrity said:
I am one of these Christians. I am not, nor have I ever been a member of the Church. I don't blame religious leaders for not recruiting me, and as a non-member of the Church, I cannot be retained. I place significantly more weight on secular life, which is why I spend my time and energy on secular groups. Can anyone who is a member of the Church, past or present attest to the burn out that exists in the lives of spiritual teachers?

Burn-out is usually the result of a failure to obey the fourth commandment (the Sabbath). The bible teaches us to rest, a concept that is very counter-cultural. In our culture, we celebrate busyness, working long hours, self-sacrifice, etc. We boast about how much we have been working when we should in fact be ashamed that we haven't prioritized rest as the bible commands. When leaders do this in church, they burn out. Pastors and other church leaders are especially bad at this because the work they do feels so important that they feel obligated to answer the phone and counsel someone who is in a difficult situation even if it is their sabbath or its 2 in the morning. The understaffed nature of Churches also makes it very easy to get caught up doing way too many things at once.

As for the first part of your statement...I'm not sure that I get it. There isn't such a thing as "secular life" vs "spiritual life", there is just life; everything is spiritual.

Celebrity · Sep 12, 2016

CrabCake said:
Burn-out is usually the result of a failure to obey the fourth commandment (the Sabbath). The bible teaches us to rest, a concept that is very counter-cultural. In our culture, we celebrate busyness, working long hours, self-sacrifice, etc. We boast about how much we have been working when we should in fact be ashamed that we haven't prioritized rest as the bible commands. When leaders do this in church, they burn out. Pastors and other church leaders are especially bad at this because the work they do feels so important that they feel obligated to answer the phone and counsel someone who is in a difficult situation even if it is their sabbath or its 2 in the morning. The understaffed nature of Churches also makes it very easy to get caught up doing way too many things at once.

As for the first part of your statement...I'm not sure that I get it. There isn't such a thing as "secular life" vs "spiritual life", there is just life; everything is spiritual.

Maybe everything is spiritual, but I believe even in the Bible secular people or non-Jews were called "gentiles."

CrabCake · Sep 12, 2016

Celebrity said:
Maybe everything is spiritual, but I believe even in the Bible secular people or non-Jews were called "gentiles."

Non-Jews are still called gentiles. I don't see what you're getting at.

Celebrity · Sep 13, 2016

CrabCake said:
Non-Jews are still called gentiles. I don't see what you're getting at.

There is a name for people who are not spiritual in the same way as Jews (or ethnically non-Jewish). We know that they exist, we can acknowledge them by name in the Biblical sense. Whether or not we believe that they are leading spiritual lives in some capacity does not really matter. By "secular life" I could mean for example, spending time within the state as distinct from the Church. I am not leading two separate lives, I simply do not seek out a congregation when I am going about my own personal spiritual business in the world. For anyone else, my experience is trivially singular, like a data point in the census.

For a Jew living among gentiles, I'm sure that there could be made a comparison between Jewish life and gentile life. Saying that "everything is Jewish" is not going to do much for me, nor would "everything is spiritual." Yeah, everything is spiritual, in the subjective sense.

CrabCake · Sep 13, 2016

Celebrity said:
There is a name for people who are not spiritual in the same way as Jews (or ethnically non-Jewish). We know that they exist, we can acknowledge them by name in the Biblical sense.

No. Gentile just means they are not of Jewish descent. Again...I don't see what you are getting at. This seems to have nothing to do with the rest of our discussion.

Celebrity said:
Whether or not we believe that they are leading spiritual lives in some capacity does not really matter. By "secular life" I could mean for example, spending time within the state as distinct from the Church. I am not leading two separate lives, I simply do not seek out a congregation when I am going about my own personal spiritual business in the world. For anyone else, my experience is trivially singular, like a data point in the census.

Right. So you seem to be fully aware that your life IS spiritual. That's why I don't get the statement "place significantly more weight on secular life". There is no such thing as secular life, there's just life.

Celebrity said:
For a Jew living among gentiles, I'm sure that there could be made a comparison between Jewish life and gentile life. Saying that "everything is Jewish" is not going to do much for me, nor would "everything is spiritual." Yeah, everything is spiritual, in the subjective sense.

A practicing Jew would not consider his shopping at the market his "gentile life" and his worship at the temple his "Jewish life"; his whole life is his Jewish life. So, I'm not really sure where you are going with bringing ancient Judaism into this.

I understand that you don't attend church. I just don't understand your reason. "I place significantly more weight on secular life" is not a statement that makes any sense to me. I don't mean that it doesn't make sense in that I don't understand why you feel that way; I mean that it doesn't make sense in that I don't understand what that statement even means. Perhaps you could rephrase it.

Celebrity · Sep 13, 2016

CrabCake said:
A practicing Jew would not consider his shopping at the market his "gentile life" and his worship at the temple his "Jewish life"; his whole life is his Jewish life. So, I'm not really sure where you are going with bringing ancient Judaism into this.

His identity is Jewish, and certain aspects of his life involve non-Jewish people. I don't think he should have an identity crisis every time he interacts with a gentile, because gentiles are non-Jews. It's his life, but the gentile's life is not his. Objectively speaking, shopping in the market is not a sacred activity for the market and all the people in it, regardless of how spiritual I and the hypothetical practicing Jew are.

CrabCake · Sep 13, 2016

Celebrity said:
His identity is Jewish, and certain aspects of his life involve non-Jewish people. I don't think he should have an identity crisis every time he interacts with a gentile, because gentiles are non-Jews. It's his life, but the gentile's life is not his.

You're the one wanting to separate things into "Jewish life" and "Gentile life" or "spiritual life" and "non-spiritual life". Of course there is no identity crisis. The rest of us don't attempt to compartmentalize our lives in that way.

Celebrity · Sep 13, 2016

CrabCake said:
You're the one wanting to separate things into "Jewish life" and "Gentile life" or "spiritual life" and "non-spiritual life". Of course there is no identity crisis. The rest of us don't attempt to compartmentalize our lives in that way.

Really? I guess I am alone in acknowledging people who do not live in a sacred way. At least I can still love and appreciate an atheist.

CrabCake · Sep 13, 2016

Celebrity said:
Really? I guess I am alone in acknowledging people who do not live in a sacred way. At least I can still love and appreciate an atheist.

As can I. I'd be surprised if there are many people who cannot.

Masterhawk · Sep 14, 2016

Celebrity said:
As far as I know, the number of Christians is growing, and possibly growing faster than the global population. That means that there is some net positive conversion.
Exit Stage Left: Why the Spiritually Mature are Leaving the Church | CT Pastors

I heard a statistic saying that Christians would increase with the world population and that irreligious people would actually decline. However, the reason for this is because the populations of christians majority countries are growing faster than developed countries. In europe, australia, USA, and canada, christianity is on the decline. By 2050, 2/3 of the US population will self identify as christian (down from 3/4 in 2016). This may seem like a lot but many of these are moderates who see the bible as figurative. A third of the US population actually practices christianity, denies evolution, and believes that God flooded the world.

nota bene · Sep 15, 2016

Fishking said:
I'm a Christian and I don't attend regularly due to my own failings. Being a member of a community helps you grow and you have a tendency to drift outside of it. I don't know why I don't go regularly. I want to, but it doesn't happen.

Church attendance is a discipline. I can attend for months/years, but if I miss once, the next Sunday becomes so much easier to skip...and then the next...and the next. I guess I'm just naturally rebellious and lazy.

If you really want to go (rather than just feeling vaguely guilty about the "shoulds"), I hope you'll make it happen.

faithful_servant · Sep 15, 2016

Celebrity said:
I Googled "leaving the Christian Church" to learn more about how exiting from the Church can impact Christians. The first hit is an article from 2006 which discusses the spiritual journey which Christians go on during their membership in a church. I think this also includes a parish, or a community, since some Christians are well known to participate in church events.

This article is dated, but it poses a relevant question. Do followers of Christ outgrow the Church? Logistically speaking, this doesn't mean joining another church, but speaks to the growing number of Christians who do not attend a church on a regular basis. Followers of Christ do not outgrow the Church. The reason why people stop attending religious services (except perhaps on holidays) is that they grow away from the Church as an institution.

As far as I know, the number of Christians is growing, and possibly growing faster than the global population. That means that there is some net positive conversion. Why are these spiritual pilgrims continuing their journey outside of the Church? There are various reasons why one might want to be superficially spiritual. Membership to a community is an important part of being human, even within the greater societal collection of communities. Christians don't want to slip through the cracks, while diminishing their commitment to the hub of their spiritual community. These may even be people who grow the Church through regular donations, but fail to attend services on a regular basis.

I am one of these Christians. I am not, nor have I ever been a member of the Church. I don't blame religious leaders for not recruiting me, and as a non-member of the Church, I cannot be retained. I place significantly more weight on secular life, which is why I spend my time and energy on secular groups. Can anyone who is a member of the Church, past or present attest to the burn out that exists in the lives of spiritual teachers?

Exit Stage Left: Why the Spiritually Mature are Leaving the Church | CT Pastors

"Burn-out" can happen in any field, especially one that requires an almost round the clock demand on leaders.

As far as member burn out, that's simple spiritual laziness and a disrespect towards God. The Church is called the Bride of Christ and if you reject the Church, you are rejecting that Bride. I know that there are people who think that calling themselves Christians means that they are part of the overall Church and they think that's enough, but the Bible repeatedly calls on Christians to meet together and have a Christ based relationship with each other. This unity of the Body is CRITICAL to our spiritual growth. Without it, you end up with minimal growth/stagnation/decline. The idea that spiritually mature people are leaving the Church is a contradiction in itself. A spiritually mature person makes sure that they are part of a body of believers.

Celebrity · Sep 15, 2016

faithful_servant said:
"Burn-out" can happen in any field, especially one that requires an almost round the clock demand on leaders.

As far as member burn out, that's simple spiritual laziness and a disrespect towards God. The Church is called the Bride of Christ and if you reject the Church, you are rejecting that Bride. I know that there are people who think that calling themselves Christians means that they are part of the overall Church and they think that's enough, but the Bible repeatedly calls on Christians to meet together and have a Christ based relationship with each other. This unity of the Body is CRITICAL to our spiritual growth. Without it, you end up with minimal growth/stagnation/decline. The idea that spiritually mature people are leaving the Church is a contradiction in itself. A spiritually mature person makes sure that they are part of a body of believers.

I agree that Christians should gather and that some Christians grow within the Church. But my vague knowledge of monasticism leads me to believe that spiritually mature people leaving the Church is not a contradiction. The question is not whether the people leaving the Church are rejecting the Church, but whether they left the Church to commit sin.

The Bible is the word of God, so we should adhere to it, and some pay very close attention to the word as related to us by the apostles. If I am not mistaken, that clergy is called Orthodox, but not all Christians are members of that church. Different people worship in different ways. I think many Christians will agree that the Ten Commandments, for example, are an important part of their faith. CrabCake mentioned (sorry to bring this up again) that not all Christians observe the Sabbath. So while the Church is a great place for Christians to congregate according to their respective denominations, I do not believe it is the duty of the Church to enforce faith as a matter of policy. It's better to be in the Church, but people who worship God outside the Church are not necessarily spiritually immature.

CrabCake · Sep 15, 2016

nota bene said:
Church attendance is a discipline. I can attend for months/years, but if I miss once, the next Sunday becomes so much easier to skip...and then the next...and the next. I guess I'm just naturally rebellious and lazy.

If you really want to go (rather than just feeling vaguely guilty about the "shoulds"), I hope you'll make it happen.

If you find the right church, you won't need discipline because you'll actually find yourself looking forward to going.

SmartCat · Sep 19, 2016

I am Christian. I attend church several times a month. I have read the Bible including the Apocrypha in several English translations.

SmokeAndMirrors · Sep 19, 2016

Celebrity said:
I Googled "leaving the Christian Church" to learn more about how exiting from the Church can impact Christians. The first hit is an article from 2006 which discusses the spiritual journey which Christians go on during their membership in a church. I think this also includes a parish, or a community, since some Christians are well known to participate in church events.

This article is dated, but it poses a relevant question. Do followers of Christ outgrow the Church? Logistically speaking, this doesn't mean joining another church, but speaks to the growing number of Christians who do not attend a church on a regular basis. Followers of Christ do not outgrow the Church. The reason why people stop attending religious services (except perhaps on holidays) is that they grow away from the Church as an institution.

As far as I know, the number of Christians is growing, and possibly growing faster than the global population. That means that there is some net positive conversion. Why are these spiritual pilgrims continuing their journey outside of the Church? There are various reasons why one might want to be superficially spiritual. Membership to a community is an important part of being human, even within the greater societal collection of communities. Christians don't want to slip through the cracks, while diminishing their commitment to the hub of their spiritual community. These may even be people who grow the Church through regular donations, but fail to attend services on a regular basis.

I am one of these Christians. I am not, nor have I ever been a member of the Church. I don't blame religious leaders for not recruiting me, and as a non-member of the Church, I cannot be retained. I place significantly more weight on secular life, which is why I spend my time and energy on secular groups. Can anyone who is a member of the Church, past or present attest to the burn out that exists in the lives of spiritual teachers?

Exit Stage Left: Why the Spiritually Mature are Leaving the Church | CT Pastors

Not Christian, but a close friend of mine was. She was Catholic, and she stopped attending because she felt alienated by all the bigotry of the Church. She eventually left Catholicism all together, once she got over the panic of worrying she might go to hell.

She's still spiritual, but essentially non-religious. She's attracted to spiritual groups, as many people are. I think this has something to do with the rising of things like Unitarian Universalist churches, which people of many religions go to, and even some atheists and agnostics.

I think what makes a lot of people stop attending churches even if they retain their beliefs is the paternalism of the exercise and the lack of feeling you have an impact on the faith community. Churches, as many of them exist, are a relic of a time when the hoi polloi had much less of a voice in their world. As the common people are gaining power in certain respects, they're rejecting institutions that make them feel powerless. And for many, the enforced top-down structure of many churches instils that feeling.

But, they're rebuilding other things instead, because the community aspect is important to humans. I was reading an interesting article the other day about an atheist who lived in a place with relatively few hobby groups, who started attending a UU church explicitly for the community, and apparently that's not especially uncommon. I can see the appeal of it, especially if you don't have a lot of access to other forms of community. We all like to get together in groups and talk or sing or trade good deeds regardless of our beliefs.

But a lot of churches don't give people that sense of involvement or empowerment over their own lives.