Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

Grant · Apr 14, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

German guy said:
Well, roughly ... you could start with the christianization of the Saxons and end it with the 30 Year War... about a millennium full of violence in the name of Christianity. And you're right, the rest of the world didn't do much better. Point being, Christianity alone obviously didn't help the Europeans to be much better than the rest of the world, during that time period.

But if we look at world history rather than just European we can see that there was war and violence everywhere. It could be argued that European advancements compared with peoples in other continents was, in part, due to Christianity.

Logicman · Apr 14, 2016

D_NATURED said:
You seem to believe that when America goes to war we are acting as god's righteous punishers. Isn't that the gist of that ridiculous verse you quoted? So, objectively, whether you wish to admit it or not, babies and children and other non-combatants are killed in wars. So, would you like to clarify your statement about Justice or not? By showing you that your blanket statement is ignorant of the fact that many innocents are killed in war, I'm hoping you will finally realize that biblical words are not universal truth.

If babies are killed it's either murder, disease,

...says the guy who thinks morality comes from the sky.

Morality IS relative to the situation. Pretending that there is a rule book that clearly explains the most moral course of action in any circumstance is idiotic. Morality requires knowing the facts, not memorizing commandments. Morality means making a fair accounting of the various harms that come from action or inaction, not pretending to know the will of a deity. Dude, you just keep digging yourself a deeper hole.

When I was born, abortion wasn't a choice for poor women. Besides, if my mother had made the decision that they couldn't afford to have me or that my life as a fetus posed a threat to HER life, she SHOULD have aborted. You sit here and act like you know what's best for women when you don't give a damn about women. You're just trying to appease your sky man, who happens to think women are a sub-species.

The irony is that, at the time of my conception, my mother was a seventeen year old girl who already had one baby and was still under the spell of the Pentecostal god. She didn't even know what morality was. Today, she's a self-admitted atheist who is a far better person than she ever could have been back then.

Want some more irony? She was sixteen when she married my father, who was ten years older. My very religious and oh so moral relatives didn't blink about letting their child marry, long before she was old enough to make adult decisions. Was that moral of her mother to allow? I say it was not. That's the typical sort of immorality that the religious practice too often, the kind they never even give a second thought to.

Today, the same marriage would definitely raise some eyebrows. Is that because modern christians are less moral than they were. It's the same book. Maybe, the modern christians have "adjusted" their "objective" morality, in clear contrast to your fantasy about morality being set in stone. BTW, speaking of stone, you know that the modern commandments are NOT the original, right? That morality is subjective but not rational.

Go back and re-read my posts again because you're still not getting it.

German guy · Apr 14, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

Grant said:
But if we look at world history rather than just European we can see that there was war and violence everywhere. It could be argued that European advancements compared with peoples in other continents was, in part, due to Christianity.

If we're to assume that a development towards Age of Enlightenment and liberalization were built into the DNA of Christianity in the first place, perhaps (and I think one can indeed argue that way).

D_NATURED · Apr 14, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

German guy said:
If we're to assume that a development towards Age of Enlightenment and liberalization were built into the DNA of Christianity in the first place, perhaps (and I think one can indeed argue that way).

Let us also establish that the ability to conceive of the abstract (god), and to use superstition to keep from freeing out, is in our real DNA. There's nothing wrong with that and I give every man the right to imagine their own form of super nature as needed to maintain their civility. I'll take an honest Christian over a conniving atheist any day. Because, I know that the end result is better for me. In a sense, religion is like a rope that you can use to climb to a state of transcendence, or to hang people or to bind the hands of slaves. We may not have a choice about whether or not to ever "believe", because I believe everyone has moments of absentminded, human superstition, as it is an ingrained part of our genetics and our culture. The goal, or so it seems to me, is to use that gift responsibly. Let's consciously create gods that are good to us and others in how the human actions they inspire are manifest.

But really, it doesn't matter what the words say if they are vague anachronisms. They will be interpreted in whatever way suites the agenda of the most motivated to kill. From Constantine to George W., His wrath is delivered by small men with big guns.

stevecanuck · Apr 14, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

German guy said:
I applaud you from taking this from the Bible; as much as I applaud Muslims who take from Quran "killing a person is like killing the whole world"

That's not what the quote says. It's been very selectively redacted. Here's the entire sentence from verse 5:32:

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.

In other words, unless he has it coming, and those who deny the signs of God (ie: don't follow the Qur'an) "have it coming".

or "for me, my faith, for you, your faith".

Mohamed was simply pointing out that there are those who will never choose Islam just as he will never stray from it. There's no, "and that's OK" stated or implied.

stevecanuck · Apr 14, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

German guy said:
What Islam needs is a kind of Enlightenment.

Christianity had material from which to create an enlightenment. The NT is mostly about peace, love, and forgiveness. There is absolutely nothing about the Qur'an and hadiths to support a similar process. Every statement in the Qur'an that describes good vs. evil is given in terms of Islamic vs. infidel, and such comparisons number in the many hundreds. They go from cover to cover. Jesus gave us, "Love thy neighbor". The Qur'an gives us, "God is the enemy of infidels". Not exactly reformation material, is it?

CrabCake · Apr 14, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

These kinds of arguments baffle me. The OP and stevecanuck appear to be of the opinion that they know Islam better than actual Muslims and are better qualified to say what Islam truly teaches than actual Muslim Imams are. They are somehow uniquely qualified to interpret the Qu'ran far more accurately than those actually trained in doing so and are thus able to decree that true Islam teaches violence and that the millions of Muslims around the world who weren't taught that violent version are not being taught "true Islam". This is like a giant "No true Scotsman" fallacy wrapped up in a fallacious appeal to authority built on top of delusions of grandeur.

coldjoint · Apr 14, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

CrabCake said:
These kinds of arguments baffle me. The OP and stevecanuck appear to be of the opinion that they know Islam better than actual Muslims and are better qualified to say what Islam truly teaches than actual Muslim Imams are. They are somehow uniquely qualified to interpret the Qu'ran far more accurately than those actually trained in doing so and are thus able to decree that true Islam teaches violence and that the millions of Muslims around the world who weren't taught that violent version are not being taught "true Islam". This is like a giant "No true Scotsman" fallacy wrapped up in a fallacious appeal to authority built on top of delusions of grandeur.

Why don't you just say "why don't we just ignore this?" No matter what a Scotsman wears he has balls under it. As in some things just do not change. And if you cannot understand that actions speak louder than words, whose fault is that?

Also you are subscribing to propaganda that Islam is mysterious. It is not. The Koran is literal. And if what you say is true, can a Muslim ever understand Christianity?
We all know the atheists and the left have it all figured out. Christianity, i.e.

CrabCake · Apr 15, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

coldjoint said:
Also you are subscribing to propaganda that Islam is mysterious. It is not. The Koran is literal.

What are you talking about? I'm not subscribing to any such thing.

coldjoint said:
And if what you say is true, can a Muslim ever understand Christianity?

Sure. But if their opinion of what Christianity teaches is in direct opposition to what all major Christian denominations are actually teaching then they haven't really understood it.

coldjoint said:
We all know the atheists and the left have it all figured out. Christianity, i.e.

Again...what are you talking about?

coldjoint · Apr 15, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

CrabCake said:
What are you talking about? I'm not subscribing to any such thing.

Sure. But if their opinion of what Christianity teaches is in direct opposition to what all major Christian denominations are actually teaching then they haven't really understood it.

Again...what are you talking about?

If you are a progressive you know what I am talking about. Islam is off limits and it must be excused. It looks like you are saying that killing and hate is not taught in Islam. Sorry to say it is, it is meant to be that way.

And that is an apology because your understanding of how important religion is in Islamic countries is lacking. It is all some people hear, or for that matter, all they have.

Islam is not as easily dismissed as Christianity has been. In fact, marginalized in the West by leadership and media. Religion is a very serious in the Islamic world. And not toeing the line has consequences. And they are worse than lawsuits that we use here.

Grant · Apr 15, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

CrabCake said:
These kinds of arguments baffle me. The OP and stevecanuck appear to be of the opinion that they know Islam better than actual Muslims and are better qualified to say what Islam truly teaches than actual Muslim Imams are. They are somehow uniquely qualified to interpret the Qu'ran far more accurately than those actually trained in doing so and are thus able to decree that true Islam teaches violence and that the millions of Muslims around the world who weren't taught that violent version are not being taught "true Islam". This is like a giant "No true Scotsman" fallacy wrapped up in a fallacious appeal to authority built on top of delusions of grandeur.

Do you really believe that all Imams, or all Christian preachers, agree with each other?

What islam teaches is in the Koran and is available to everyone.

CrabCake · Apr 15, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

Grant said:
Do you really believe that all Imams, or all Christian preachers, agree with each other?

What does this have to do with anything?

The fact remains that the overwhelming majority of Muslim mosques throughout the world teach a non-violent version of Islam. They teach values that we all share with them: forgiveness, peace, love, kindness.

Grant said:
What islam teaches is in the Koran and is available to everyone.

First of all, that's not true. The Qu'ran is only one of the sources of Islamic doctrine. The idea of scripture as the sole authority is a uniquely Christian idea. You really only find such views among Christian churches that have names like "_____ Bible Church".

Second of all, we could say the same thing about the Christian bible. It is available to everyone. What would happen if you opened the bible with no training whatsoever and just started reading? You would be able to say really dumb things like:

The bible supports the murder of children!: Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. (Psalm 137:9)
Jesus was a man of war!: Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)
Jesus came to break up families!: For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law (Matthew 10:35)

Obviously just picking up a bible and reading it with absolutely no training and then picking out verses is a really dumb way to discover Christian doctrine. Imagine a Muslim came along, picked up the bible and started declaring that genuine Christianity teaches war and murder and is opposed to family values because of verses like the above and others, and that all Christians who believe otherwise are simply not following genuine Christianity. Would it make more sense to believe that Muslim because he's showing you using the bible? or to listen to actual Christian teaching on such topics?

Grant · Apr 15, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

CrabCake said:
What does this have to do with anything?

Because you stated " The OP and stevecanuck appear to be of the opinion that they know Islam better than actual Muslims and are better qualified to say what Islam truly teaches than actual Muslim Imams are". Why do you have to be a Muslim to understand what the Koran says or a Christian to understand what either the NT or OT says?

The fact remains that the overwhelming majority of Muslim mosques throughout the world teach a non-violent version of Islam. They teach values that we all share with them: forgiveness, peace, love, kindness

Some do and others don't. Do you know which is which?

First of all, that's not true. The Qu'ran is only one of the sources of Islamic doctrine. The idea of scripture as the sole authority is a uniquely Christian idea. You really only find such views among Christian churches that have names like "_____ Bible Church".

Yes.

Second of all, we could say the same thing about the Christian bible. It is available to everyone. What would happen if you opened the bible with no training whatsoever and just started reading? You would be able to say really dumb things like:The bible supports the murder of children!: Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. (Psalm 137:9)
Jesus was a man of war!: Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)
Jesus came to break up families!: For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law (Matthew 10:35)

You'll probably find Christians who believe that, just as we're seeing Muslims who take the Koran literally and seriously. But, thankfully, Christians aren't carrying out terror throughout the world to support these passages. In fact Christians have become the target of Muslims and a genocide is being carried out while we debate these religions. It really doesn;t matter what the Bible says, or any other book. The sad fact is that Muslims are committing terrorist acts and murdering innocents internationally, while other religions, as well as atheists and agnostics, aren't.

Obviously just picking up a bible and reading it with absolutely no training and then picking out verses is a really dumb way to discover Christian doctrine. Imagine a Muslim came along, picked up the bible and started declaring that genuine Christianity teaches war and murder and is opposed to family values because of verses like the above and others, and that all Christians who believe otherwise are simply not following genuine Christianity. Would it make more sense to believe that Muslim because he's showing you using the bible? or to listen to actual Christian teaching on such topics?

Muslims, whether we like it or not, are associated with the Third World for a very good reason. They put more emphasis on learning the Koran than they do anything else and that is a reflection on their lack of contribution to world literature, science, and so on. Instead they are the source of violence, misogyny, and hatreds everywhere. If they were to switch to Christianity, or Judaism, or even atheism, the world would be a lot better off, and safer.

CrabCake · Apr 15, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

Grant said:
Why do you have to be a Muslim to understand what the Koran says or a Christian to understand what either the NT or OT says?

You don't have to be. But when your statements fly in the face of what actual Muslims and actual Christians teach then common sense tells me that the actual Christians and actual Muslims are better sources than the crackpot who picked up a Qu'ran or Bible with absolutely no training and proceeded to claim that he knows better than actual Muslims and actual Christians.

Grant said:
Some do and others don't. Do you know which is which?

This is misleading worded. When you say "some do and others don't" you make it sound as if these are equally weighed positions that find widespread acceptance around the world. This is not the case. Globally, Islam is a religion of peace that teaches many of the same values we all share. There are cults of Islam that teach otherwise, but they are fringe elements.

The Lord's Resistance Army, a self-designated Christian army goes around kidnapping children and slaughtering villages in a misguided attempt to establish a Christian nation ruled by the ten commandments in the Congo and Central African Republic. We know there are other groups like them. Given this information, does it make any sense to say "some do and some don't" in response to the claim that Christians believe in peace, kindness, love, etc?

It may be technically accurate, but it is misleadingly stated.

Grant said:
You'll probably find Christians who believe that, just as we're seeing Muslims who take the Koran literally and seriously.

No, you probably won't.

But if you did, you would refer to such people as belonging to a cult of Christianity. You would not refer to them as actual Christians.

Grant said:
But, thankfully, Christians aren't carrying out terror throughout the world to support these passages. In fact Christians have become the target of Muslims and a genocide is being carried out while we debate these religions. It really doesn;t matter what the Bible says, or any other book. The sad fact is that Muslims are committing terrorist acts and murdering innocents internationally, while other religions, as well as atheists and agnostics, aren't.

I already mentioned The Lord's Resistance Army. Do you need more examples?

Grant said:
Muslims, whether we like it or not, are associated with the Third World for a very good reason.

What are you talking about? Islam is associated with extravagant wealth. Some of the wealthiest nations on the planet; four of the 10 nations with the highest GDP per capita in the world are Muslim (Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates).

Here are some images of shopping malls in Qatar and Kuwait:

and some shots of the skylines:

If you associate Islam with the third world, it's probably due to ignorance.

Grant said:
their lack of contribution to world literature, science, and so on.

Yeah, because the development of Algebra was such a minor contribution to science.

Grant said:
Instead they are the source of violence, misogyny, and hatreds everywhere. If they were to switch to Christianity, or Judaism, or even atheism, the world would be a lot better off, and safer.

It's interesting how you have morphed the discussion. This began with the question of whether those well versed in the study of Islam are better equipped to speak on Islam than people with no training who pick and choose verses from the Qu'ran which wind up disagreeing with the Islamic consensus. A question you answered in the negative. Now it's morphed into a full throated attack on the very existence of Islam.

Kinda shows where your chips lie.

stevecanuck · Apr 15, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

I've been studying Islam for 15 years. I lived in a Muslim country for 7 years. What are your credentials, Crabcake?

Unitedwestand13 · Apr 15, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

stevecanuck said:
I've been studying Islam for 15 years. I lived in a Muslim country for 7 years. What are your credentials, Crabcake?

define how you studies Islam. Did you go to any imams and asked questions? Did you seek out sources other than ones that provided the answer you wanted to hear?

Grant · Apr 15, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

CrabCake said:
You don't have to be. But when your statements fly in the face of what actual Muslims and actual Christians teach then common sense tells me that the actual Christians and actual Muslims are better sources than the crackpot who picked up a Qu'ran or Bible with absolutely no training and proceeded to claim that he knows better than actual Muslims and actual Christians.

We don't have to read the koran or listen to different Imams to see how some Muslims commit terrorism, others support it and others sympathize with it. None of this has anything to do with the Bible, the Talmud or any other religion.

This is misleading worded. When you say "some do and others don't" you make it sound as if these are equally weighed positions that find widespread acceptance around the world. This is not the case. Globally, Islam is a religion of peace that teaches many of the same values we all share. There are cults of Islam that teach otherwise, but they are fringe elements.

Not fringe enough because Muslims are committing terrorist acts all over the world. You don;t deny that, do you? And indeed what I said is true.

The Lord's Resistance Army, a self-designated Christian army goes around kidnapping children and slaughtering villages in a misguided attempt to establish a Christian nation ruled by the ten commandments in the Congo and Central African Republic. We know there are other groups like them. Given this information, does it make any sense to say "some do and some don't" in response to the claim that Christians believe in peace, kindness, love, etc?

These people are pigs and a blot on humanity.

It may be technically accurate, but it is misleadingly stated.

It is accurate, even if it does make you uncomfortable.

What are you talking about? Islam is associated with extravagant wealth. Some of the wealthiest nations on the planet; four of the 10 nations with the highest GDP per capita in the world are Muslim (Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates).

Extravagant wealth created by the west and where women are second class citizens and Gays put to death. Let's see some Nobel Prizes from these 1.5 billion people and then you may have a point.

Here are some images of shopping malls in Qatar and Kuwait:

Shopping malls are an indication of an advanced civilization? What a remarkable assertion!

If you associate Islam with the third world, it's probably due to ignorance.

No, it's probably due to statistics. 10 Countries With the Largest Muslim Populations, 2010 and 2050 | Pew Research Center

Yeah, because the development of Algebra was such a minor contribution to science.

The fact that you're needing to go back to 830 a.d. to list an accomplishment only proves my point.

It's interesting how you have morphed the discussion. This began with the question of whether those well versed in the study of Islam are better equipped to speak on Islam than people with no training who pick and choose verses from the Qu'ran which wind up disagreeing with the Islamic consensus. A question you answered in the negative. Now it's morphed into a full throated attack on the very existence of Islam.

So what? Why shouldn't Islam be criticized? It hasn't done much good for any people for centuries, apart from the shopping malls you pointed out and the very wealthy. Non-Islamic nations have fared much better and with people living far better lives.

Kinda shows where your chips lie.

What does that mean?

CrabCake · Apr 16, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

Grant said:
We don't have to read the koran or listen to different Imams to see how some Muslims commit terrorism, others support it and others sympathize with it.

We don't have to read the Bible or listen to different pastors to see how Christians commit terrorism, others support it and other sympathize with it.

See how easy it is to plug in whatever religion you would like to hate on?

There have been terrorists who commit their acts in the name of Christianity. A few recent examples:
The Lord's Resistance Army which I had already mentioned.
Anders Brevik, the terrorist who murdered 77 people in an attack designed to spark a movement to create a "monocultural Christian Europe".
Robert Dear, the "Christian" terrorist who attacked a planned parenthood clinic, killing 3 people.

Grant said:
Not fringe enough because Muslims are committing terrorist acts all over the world. You don;t deny that, do you?

As are "Christians".

Grant said:
These people are pigs and a blot on humanity.

They also claim to be Christian. Whether you like it or not, terrorism in the name of Christianity exists. You could argue that they are not genuine Christians; that such individuals and groups present a warped and distorted version of Christianity that no longer resembles genuine Christianity. You would be right. So are Muslims when they say the same about the pigs and blots on humanity who claim their religion.

Grant said:
Let's see some Nobel Prizes from these 1.5 billion people and then you may have a point.

Sure, Aziz Sancar won the Nobel prize in Chemistry just last year.

Grant said:
Shopping malls are an indication of an advanced civilization? What a remarkable assertion!

You called Muslim countries third world. Third world = underdeveloped. Skyscrapers and extravagant shopping malls is the opposite of underdeveloped.

Grant said:
No, it's probably due to statistics. 10 Countries With the Largest Muslim Populations, 2010 and 2050 | Pew Research Center

What does the chart you just linked to have to do with the facts I mentioned?

Grant said:
The fact that you're needing to go back to 830 a.d. to list an accomplishment only proves my point.

I didn't need to, I chose to. On this post I mentioned a Nobel Laureate from last year.

Grant said:
It hasn't done much good for any people for centuries, apart from the shopping malls you pointed out and the very wealthy.

Have you spoken with any Muslims or at least read or listened to some of their stories? Islam gives a lot of people: hope, peace, strength, and purpose. Muslim conversion stories are often as powerful as those of Christians. People have turned their lives around, overcoming: substance abuse, gang life, depression, and other such ills through their conversion to Islam. It's done a lot of good for countless people.

Take part in some inter-faith dialogue and discussion groups. Pull up the "Meetup" app and see if there's an inter-faith group in your community. You might be surprised at just how similar to you people from other faiths can be. Yes, there are striking differences as well...but if you actually knew any Muslims you wouldn't be as misinformed as the things you have said so far prove you are.

Grant said:
Non-Islamic nations have fared much better and with people living far better lives.

Let's see the data.

More importantly, let's see the evidence that religion has anything to do with it and that these aren't the result of geography, history, and the typical triad: guns, germs, and steel.

Grant said:
So what? Why shouldn't Islam be criticized?

It should be criticized. But that criticism should be grounded on truth, not lies. If your criticism is based on lies and misinformation then you are not actually criticizing Islam, you are criticizing a caricature of Islam that does not actually resemble real Islam.

This brings things back around to my original point. Rather than pretending we know what real Islam is better than actual Muslims and creating this caricature of Islam to attack, why don't we initiate dialogue instead on addressing the issues real Islam has? Let's talk about why most Muslim-dominated countries are more like Saudi Arabia and less like Pakistan in their treatment of women. Let's talk about why most Muslim dominated countries suppress or even oppress other religions. There's a lot of real issues with Islam that could be discussed. Creating this fake image of Islam as this violent religion that supports terrorism is a waste of time when we have real issues we could be addressing.

CrabCake · Apr 16, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

stevecanuck said:
I've been studying Islam for 15 years. I lived in a Muslim country for 7 years. What are your credentials, Crabcake?

Then I'm sorry to tell you but...you wasted those 15 years. I would ask for a refund from whatever institutions you did your studies in if I were you. After 15 years of study, you should have a PhD level understanding. With that kind of understanding, you should've been able to rattle off a dozen or more Qu'ran and Hadith references to loving your neighbors, forgiving those who wronged you, showing mercy to your enemies, etc. The Qu'ran is filled with those! You're telling me you studied Islam for 15 years and instead of being able to rattle off a few dozen scriptures which say such things you instead find yourself claiming the Qu'ran says no such thing? Seriously, get your money back.

Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the Days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each People according to what they have earned. Quran 45:14

The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loveth not those who do wrong. Quran 42:40

'Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, “Peace!” Qu'ran 25:63

Medusa · Apr 16, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

CrabCake said:
We don't have to read the Bible or listen to different pastors to see how Christians commit terrorism, others support it and other sympathize with it.

See how easy it is to plug in whatever religion you would like to hate on?

There have been terrorists who commit their acts in the name of Christianity. A few recent examples:
The Lord's Resistance Army which I had already mentioned.
Anders Brevik, the terrorist who murdered 77 people in an attack designed to spark a movement to create a "monocultural Christian Europe".
Robert Dear, the "Christian" terrorist who attacked a planned parenthood clinic, killing 3 people.

As are "Christians".

They also claim to be Christian. Whether you like it or not, terrorism in the name of Christianity exists. You could argue that they are not genuine Christians; that such individuals and groups present a warped and distorted version of Christianity that no longer resembles genuine Christianity. You would be right. So are Muslims when they say the same about the pigs and blots on humanity who claim their religion.

Sure, Aziz Sancar won the Nobel prize in Chemistry just last year.

You called Muslim countries third world. Third world = underdeveloped. Skyscrapers and extravagant shopping malls is the opposite of underdeveloped.

What does the chart you just linked to have to do with the facts I mentioned?

I didn't need to, I chose to. On this post I mentioned a Nobel Laureate from last year.

Have you spoken with any Muslims or at least read or listened to some of their stories? Islam gives a lot of people: hope, peace, strength, and purpose. Muslim conversion stories are often as powerful as those of Christians. People have turned their lives around, overcoming: substance abuse, gang life, depression, and other such ills through their conversion to Islam. It's done a lot of good for countless people.

Take part in some inter-faith dialogue and discussion groups. Pull up the "Meetup" app and see if there's an inter-faith group in your community. You might be surprised at just how similar to you people from other faiths can be. Yes, there are striking differences as well...but if you actually knew any Muslims you wouldn't be as misinformed as the things you have said so far prove you are.

Let's see the data.

More importantly, let's see the evidence that religion has anything to do with it and that these aren't the result of geography, history, and the typical triad: guns, germs, and steel.

It should be criticized. But that criticism should be grounded on truth, not lies. If your criticism is based on lies and misinformation then you are not actually criticizing Islam, you are criticizing a caricature of Islam that does not actually resemble real Islam.

This brings things back around to my original point. Rather than pretending we know what real Islam is better than actual Muslims and creating this caricature of Islam to attack, why don't we initiate dialogue instead on addressing the issues real Islam has? Let's talk about why most Muslim-dominated countries are more like Saudi Arabia and less like Pakistan in their treatment of women. Let's talk about why most Muslim dominated countries suppress or even oppress other religions. There's a lot of real issues with Islam that could be discussed. Creating this fake image of Islam as this violent religion that supports terrorism is a waste of time when we have real issues we could be addressing.

he was not only muslim but also Turk,I am proud of him .

Chagos · Apr 16, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

CrabCake said:
Then I'm sorry to tell you but...you wasted those 15 years. I would ask for a refund from whatever institutions you did your studies in if I were you. After 15 years of study, you should have a PhD level understanding. With that kind of understanding, you should've been able to rattle off a dozen or more Qu'ran and Hadith references to loving your neighbors, forgiving those who wronged you, showing mercy to your enemies, etc. The Qu'ran is filled with those! You're telling me you studied Islam for 15 years and instead of being able to rattle off a few dozen scriptures which say such things you instead find yourself claiming the Qu'ran says no such thing? Seriously, get your money back.

Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the Days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each People according to what they have earned. Quran 45:14

The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loveth not those who do wrong. Quran 42:40

'Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.'(Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

The worshippers of the All-Merciful are they who tread gently upon the earth, and when the ignorant address them, they reply, “Peace!” Qu'ran 25:63

Occupying oneself with any issue for 15 years does not necessarily lead to 15 years of experience on the subject. Often enough it's just the repetition of one year, 15 times. Not exactly something anyone would term as "study".

Medusa · Apr 16, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

stevecanuck said:
Christianity had material from which to create an enlightenment. The NT is mostly about peace, love, and forgiveness. There is absolutely nothing about the Qur'an and hadiths to support a similar process. Every statement in the Qur'an that describes good vs. evil is given in terms of Islamic vs. infidel, and such comparisons number in the many hundreds. They go from cover to cover. Jesus gave us, "Love thy neighbor". The Qur'an gives us, "God is the enemy of infidels". Not exactly reformation material, is it?

2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

the new testament is peaceful but dear christians have not been peaceful throughout the history (except for the first christians

Qoran advises you to love your neighbour too.learn much

Grant · Apr 16, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

CrabCake said:
We don't have to read the Bible or listen to different pastors to see how Christians commit terrorism, others support it and other sympathize with it.

Why divert to Christianity when the subject is Islam and its followers? If you're making the claim that other religions are just as bad as |Islam, and we should therefore look the other way, then that is clearly a losing argument.

See how easy it is to plug in whatever religion you would like to hate on?

No. There has to be some serious examples. I'm sure you can look back at other religions and criticize their history but we are having to deal with Islamic fanatics, and their sympathizers, now.

There have been terrorists who commit their acts in the name of Christianity. A few recent examples:
The Lord's Resistance Army which I had already mentioned.Anders Brevik, the terrorist who murdered 77 people in an attack designed to spark a movement to create a "monocultural Christian Europe".
Robert Dear, the "Christian" terrorist who attacked a planned parenthood clinic, killing 3 people.

Is this your defense of Islamic terrorism? That others are just as bad? As bad as these cases are they are not near close to the suffering Islam has caused, both to those outside and within this primitive religion.

As are "Christians".

No, not even close. Are you genuinely unaware of Islamic terrorism throughout the world? If not you seem to be in very serious denial.

They also claim to be Christian. Whether you like it or not, terrorism in the name of Christianity exists. You could argue that they are not genuine Christians; that such individuals and groups present a warped and distorted version of Christianity that no longer resembles genuine Christianity. You would be right. So are Muslims when they say the same about the pigs and blots on humanity who claim their religion.

Yes, Christian terrorists exist and they are denounced regularly as they should be. How many Christians to find supporting what Christian terrorists there might be? I find you diverting to other areas solely because you have no reasonable response to the dehumanizing cult that is Islam.

Sure, Aziz Sancar won the Nobel prize in Chemistry just last year.

And good for him, and it was shared. Of course he's living in the United States where education rather than indoctrination, takes precedence. Look at how many Christians support terrorism versus Muslims. I doubt the percentage would even register.

You called Muslim countries third world. Third world = underdeveloped. Skyscrapers and extravagant shopping malls is the opposite of underdeveloped.

Not at all. Third World is related to human rights and freedoms as wel,l and not shopping malls for the wealthier of its citizens. They are not an indication of first world status. This is the old saw about lipstick on a pig still being a pig.

What does the chart you just linked to have to do with the facts I mentioned?

Read the heading and that will explain it to you.

I didn't need to, I chose to. On this post I mentioned a Nobel Laureate from last year.

And I mentioned that it was an accomplishment. But here are some stats you might want to look at and why there is such a disproportionate difference between two religious faiths. Nobel Prizes: 4 Muslim vs. 129 Jewish Contributions to the World (con't)

Grant · Apr 16, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

(Con't)

Have you spoken with any Muslims or at least read or listened to some of their stories? Islam gives a lot of people: hope, peace, strength, and purpose. Muslim conversion stories are often as powerful as those of Christians. People have turned their lives around, overcoming: substance abuse, gang life, depression, and other such ills through their conversion to Islam. It's done a lot of good for countless people.

All religions can supply those needs, and good for them, but it is the Islamic community who are responsible for most of the terrorism going on around the world. I see nothing positive about Islam whatsoever.

Take part in some inter-faith dialogue and discussion groups. Pull up the "Meetup" app and see if there's an inter-faith group in your community. You might be surprised at just how similar to you people from other faiths can be. Yes, there are striking differences as well...but if you actually knew any Muslims you wouldn't be as misinformed as the things you have said so far prove you are.

In fact I recently lived in a neighborhood almost exclusively Muslim. Although not as friendly, on average, as most communities I've lived in, they were all decent people. But this is often despite a religion, not because of it. Atheists are friendly and easy to get along with also. Im in the agnostic camp and we're a wonderful bunch.

Let's see the data.

See the data? You don;t know the advances made in the western world versus those countries dominated by Islam? It's clear that even Muslims don't want to live in Islamic countries, and why would they?

More importantly, let's see the evidence that religion has anything to do with it and that these aren't the result of geography, history, and the typical triad: guns, germs, and steel.

When Muslim terrorists blow themselves up, and those around them, while shouting Allah Akbar, it sounds Islamic to me. There are a variety of geographical areas where non Muslims have thrived, making something out of nothing, and Israel would be a great example of that.

It should be criticized. But that criticism should be grounded on truth, not lies. If your criticism is based on lies and misinformation then you are not actually criticizing Islam, you are criticizing a caricature of Islam that does not actually resemble real Islam.

I would never deliberately lie and, in the case of Islam, I don't have to. The religion, as well as the statistics and headlines, speaks for itself.

This brings things back around to my original point. Rather than pretending we know what real Islam is better than actual Muslims and creating this caricature of Islam to attack, why don't we initiate dialogue instead on addressing the issues real Islam has? Let's talk about why most Muslim-dominated countries are more like Saudi Arabia and less like Pakistan in their treatment of women. Let's talk about why most Muslim dominated countries suppress or even oppress other religions. There's a lot of real issues with Islam that could be discussed. Creating this fake image of Islam as this violent religion that supports terrorism is a waste of time when we have real issues we could be addressing.

How much do I need to know about Islam to understand they are creating terrorism throughout the world, murdering Gays, subjugating women and little girls, condoning rape, and so on. What could I possibly read in the Koran or listen to in the study groups that would alleviate these facts?

I sincerely thank you for the debate.

Grant · Apr 16, 2016

Re: Separating Islam from "All Muslims".

Medusa said:
he was not only muslim but also Turk,I am proud of him .

And he was educated elsewhere.

Isn't it great to be in America? There are possibilities and potential for everyone.