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The first amendment and public accommodation laws.

So you don't believe housing is an essential service.

As I said, before I would invoke accommodation laws the good or service would need to be BOTH necessary and provided only by a monopoly.
 
When someone decides to enter into the secular world of business, they know the rules. Or at least they should. And the anti-discrimination laws are quite clear. If you don't wish to play by the rules, get out, file as a religious entity or be prepared to suffer the consequences
 
In some circumstances, for the purpose of maintaining peace, liberty and the general welfare, the government may have a compelling interest to intervene in situations where there are legitimate abuses. Going back to my examples, not being served in Daisy's Diner when there are several other diners available does not generate a compelling interest for the government to intervene. On the other hand, being denied electricity from the only local power company because they don't like your lifestyle does create a compelling interest because the aggrieved party has no other means to get electricity AND electricity is a basic necessity.

Incorrect. Being denied service at Daisy's diner because you are gay (lifestyle) is clearly a discriminatory practice outlawed in many, if not most, jurisdictions. The courts are quite clear on that issue.
 
As I said, before I would invoke accommodation laws the good or service would need to be BOTH necessary and provided only by a monopoly.

So if all the businesses decide to collectively discriminate against one particular group it's okay?
 
Are rights violated or just limited?

So what do they do if two conflict?

Violated. Tell me, what rights do people have to make people provide them their labor and property against their will? If I say no, I will not trade with you, what grounds does the government have to force me to do so anyway?
 
When someone decides to enter into the secular world of business, they know the rules. Or at least they should. And the anti-discrimination laws are quite clear. If you don't wish to play by the rules, get out, file as a religious entity or be prepared to suffer the consequences
This discussion is about the conflict between religious expression and accommodation laws
 
This discussion is about the conflict between religious expression and accommodation laws

And relgious objections is just one of many reasons someone could have to say no. What difference does it make if someone says no because of their faith or no because of your hair?
 
Violated. Tell me, what rights do people have to make people provide them their labor and property against their will?
none, but that isn't what's happening.

If I say no, I will not trade with you, what grounds does the government have to force me to do so anyway?
Well if you are systematically refusing to serve people based on race, color, sex, religion, or martial origin it's under the grounds of the civil rights act.
 
none, but that isn't what's happening.

How is it not? Who do you think owns the property that the consumer is out to obtain?

Well if you are systematically refusing to serve people based on race, color, sex, religion, or martial origin it's under the grounds of the civil rights act.

That doesn't answer the question but just changes the question to the merit behind the law. Since you already forbid that discussion it would appear this discussion is over.
 
And relgious objections is just one of many reasons someone could have to say no.
In some cases that reason isn't legal.

What difference does it make if someone says no because of their faith or no because of your hair?
There isn't. The free expression of religion was limited at this point
 
How is it not?
Well that not being what's happening is how.

Who do you think owns the property that the consumer is out to obtain?
What difference does that make?



That doesn't answer the question
Yes it does. The civil rights act is the grounds the government has to force you to do so.

but just changes the question to the merit behind the law.
No it directly answered the question and changed nothing.

Since you already forbid that discussion
In the OP.
it would appear this discussion is over.
Okay.
 
This discussion is about the conflict between religious expression and accommodation laws

That's exactly what I was referring to. What did you not understand about my post?
 
That's exactly what I was referring to. What did you not understand about my post?
Your post wasn't about the conflict between religious expression and P.A. laws.

It was about what you feel businesses must accept upon entering the public.
 
Your post wasn't about the conflict between religious expression and P.A. laws.

It was about what you feel businesses must accept upon entering the public.

Sorry to have to clarify it for you, but that's exactly where the conflict arises. The business's refusal to accept the requirements of running a public business. Accept it, get out or accept the consequences. I indicated case law is clear. The conflict arises where some choose to ignore the law and whine about the consequences of their illegal actions.
 
Public accommodation laws are under a lot of criticism currently. It seems that people feel that the public accommodation laws are restricting their first amendment rights to the freedom to exercise their religion.

So the topic of the discussion specifically is really the first amendment and public accommodation. It seems reasonable arguments exist on either side of the debate.

For reference I will post the text of the first amendment and what public accommodation means in this context.





What are your thoughts?

It seems to me that PA laws are an example of 'Congress making a law prohibiting the free exercise thereof' and are thus a violation of the first Amendment. The exercise of my religion extends into my public and commercial life. But personally, I don't believe that the state should compel me to act against my conscience whether that conscience is theologically based or not. That my religion somehow forbids me to interact with Person A in some fashion is no more rational than me just not wishing to interact with Person A for any reason whatsoever. People should be free to act according to their own will. That includes the right to discriminate.
 
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Well that not being what's happening is how.

What?

What difference does that make?

What kind of goofy question is that? Do you think the owner of the property has the right to decide on who they will sell it to?

Yes it does. The civil rights act is the grounds the government has to force you to do so.

And what is the grounds for the civil rights act. Again, all you did was change the question.

No it directly answered the question and changed nothing.

It didn't.

In the OP.

No, you didn't.
 
Sorry to have to clarify it for you, but that's exactly where the conflict arises. The business's refusal to accept the requirements of running a public business. Accept it, get out or accept the consequences. I indicated case law is clear. The conflict arises where some choose to ignore the law and whine about the consequences of their illegal actions.

You are assuming that law justifies itself. It doesn't. But your totalitarian view of things is not uncommon.
 
You are assuming that law justifies itself. It doesn't. But your totalitarian view of things is not uncommon.


Totalitarian? Hilarious!

You had best refer to the 14th Amendment and equal protection under the law. Is that what you consider totalitarian? Or is the totalitarian thing just another right wing mantra to whine about laws you don't like?

Your conscience doesn't want you to serve black people? Great. Follow your conscience. Directly to jail. Or, more likely, deep into your wallet.

If you don't like the rules of business, find another vocation.
 
Sorry to have to clarify it for you, but that's exactly where the conflict arises. The business's refusal to accept the requirements of running a public business. Accept it, get out or accept the consequences. I indicated case law is clear. The conflict arises where some choose to ignore the law and whine about the consequences of their illegal actions.
I don't think you understand.
 
This discussion is about the conflict between religious expression and accommodation laws

Just a few observations:

Almost nothing in the Constitution prohibits discrimination by private persons, i.e. private individuals and private corporations. The public accommodations part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was forced to rely on that catchall, the Commerce Clause. The Supreme Court upheld this law in Katzenbach v. McClung (the Ollie's Barbecue Case) and Heart of Atlanta Motel, both of which involved discrimination against blacks. The rationale was that blacks would be discouraged from taking vacations by car or otherwise traveling between states, if they could not be sure in advance of having places en route to eat, sleep, see a movie, gas up the car, and so on.

None of the three most important cases the Supreme Court has decided which involved state public accommodations laws--Roberts v. U.S. Jaycees, Hurley v. Irish-American GLIB Assn. of Boston, and Boy Scouts of America v. Dale--involved religious freedom. Roberts and Dale were First Amendment freedom of association cases, and Hurley was a freedom of speech case.

All three are a good source of information about the constitutional issues involved. Hurley is interesting because it touches on government-compelled speech, a subject the Court discussed in Barnette, Wooley, Pruneyard Shopping Center, and a few other decisions. The freedom of speech includes the freedom NOT to speak, and government violates the freedom of speech when it compels people to express ideas they do not agree with. A Jewish baker might have to bake an ordinary cake for the local Nazi group's celebration of Hitler's birthday if they ordered one, but no public accommodation law can require him to decorate it with swastikas and the phrases "Sieg Heil" and "Judenetum ist Verbrechertum."

In common law, the main types of public accommodations required to take all comers were innkeepers and common carriers. The reason was simple. Inns often were the only place for miles around to get shelter and a meal, and in bad weather, turning a person away who could have been accommodated could seriously threaten his health or even his life. Same with coaches and trains--a person might have an urgent need to get someplace, maybe for medical treatment. The idea was that by holding himself out as a provider of certain services, a private person running a business created a public expectation that he would provide that service if at all possible. (This same reasoning has applied in cases involving the duty of private water companies to contract with customers in the areas they have held themselves out as serving.)

In both Hurley and Dale, part of the problem with the state public accommodation law was that it reached too far. The "public accommodation" in Hurely was the Boston St. Patrick's Day Parade!, and in Dale it was a local Boy Scout council. That's one hell of a long way from inns, trains, barbecue joints, or motels.

For First Amendment purposes, "speech" is very broadly defined, and it includes various forms of creative expression (e.g. topless dancing). As a general rule, the more creative the speech, the more likely a state public accommodations law that compels it will be unconstitutional on free speech grounds. That's what makes the Elaine's Photography case so interesting. There was some creativity involved in Elaine's wedding photographs, and yet the work she did was not as obviously creative as, say, writing a celebratory poem or article about a same-sex wedding, or painting the couple's portrait to commemorate the occasion. I think the New Mexico Supreme Court blew that decision, misreading or ignoring U.S. Supreme Court decisions that were relevant--particularly Wooley v. Maynard.
 
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Facilities used by the public unambiguously sets terms for what public accommodations applies to.

The first amendment provides for freedom of personal worship and private assembly, so there is no overlap.
 
It seems to me that PA laws are an example of 'Congress making a law prohibiting the free exercise thereof' and are thus a violation of the first Amendment.
Well, it's actually just limiting the free exercise thereof. And limits are necessary. Especially if allowing one group limitless freedom restricts the freedoms of others.

Basically put the freedom of expression thereof ends at others rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The exercise of my religion extends into my public and commercial life.
Sure it does, but it has limits.

But personally, I don't believe that the state should compel me to act against my conscience whether that conscience is theologically based or not.
I am sorry, but there must be limits. If they can't force you to act or not act against your conscience they can't force anybody to act or not act against their conscience. And it's against some people's conscience to allow Christians to live, or not sacrifice their first born to the sun God.

So that isn't a good threshold.

That my religion somehow forbids me to interact with Person A in some fashion is no more rational than me just not wishing to interact with Person A for any reason whatsoever.
The government cannot define religion, so what a person's religion says only matters to them. You can't legally choose not to serve all black people or all Jewish people, that violates the civil rights act, and thus federal law, regardless of your religion or feelings or whatever. You are not allowed to do that. So if you discriminate against person A because they smell bad or aren't wearing pants you're fine, if you discriminate against person A because they are a certain religion or race, you have violated law.

People should be free to act according to their own will. That includes the right to discriminate.
Incorrect. Freedoms must be limited otherwise nobody really has any freedoms.
 
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