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Religion as a belief system

John V

John V

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My attempt to define the differences between a belief and science.

Religion continues to have a bad press and the comments are legion and repetitive; you can’t prove God exists; why does God allow wars and famine; I’m an atheist, I don’t believe in God . . .
Let’s take those comments one at a time:

You can’t prove God exists
There are two systems of thought, belief (opinion) and scientific fact (proof). You can’t prove or disprove an existence of God because it’s a belief and so to say that God doesn’t exist is a belief in itself. It’s why debates about the existence of God go round in never ending circles trying unsuccessfully to scientifically prove or disprove a belief.

Why does God allow wars and famine?
God doesn’t, God allows the individual free will. God doesn’t cause wars and famine, man does, often in the name of God. You could ‘Feed the world’, it’s simply cheaper not to and people don’t start wars, politicians do. When man assumes authority over God, bad things invariably follow.

I’m an atheist, I don’t believe in God
A belief in nothing is itself a belief. Beliefs are the default of mankind, be it a piece of rock, the sun or an ideology, it’s as old as history itself. Take away a belief in God and the belief will turn to a leadership cult, money, nationalism . . . but it won’t leave a vacuum. Looking back over the 20th century, the mass graves throughout Europe came from those atheists that didn’t believe in God, but the power of man to create a perfect society.

Religion gives a set of moral standards and values by which to live. Start to dismantle those values and replace them with man-made alternative values of money, cult leadership or political ideologies and history tells us that it always ends in disaster.

Back to the future and welcome to the new age, take your pick; they’re all beliefs from those that ridicule the existence of God as a belief.

Capitalism.jpg Cult worship.jpg Ideology.jpg
 
Atheism is not belief in nothing, it is not having a belief in gods. Your argument falls over itself.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Atheism is not belief in nothing, it is not having a belief in gods. Your argument falls over itself.
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Where did I say atheists believe in nothing? What I said was a belief in nothing is itself a belief and then proceed to say that a disbelief in God produces an alternate belief.
 
Your "Why does God allow wars and famine?" bullet is disingenuous. You specifically picked things that humans have control over. Tell me, where does free will play into disease and natural disasters?

Over 100,000 people died in the Haiti earthquake. How does free will play into that?
 
John V said:
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Religion gives a set of moral standards and values by which to live. Start to dismantle those values and replace them with man-made alternative values of money, cult leadership or political ideologies and history tells us that it always ends in disaster.

]
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Are you saying Australia is a worse place to live than Iran because of the secular nature of society?
 
John V said:
Where did I say atheists believe in nothing? What I said was a belief in nothing is itself a belief and then proceed to say that a disbelief in God produces an alternate belief.
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You're a Hindu because you disbelieve in Vishnu?
 
BrewerBob said:
Your "Why does God allow wars and famine?" bullet is disingenuous. You specifically picked things that humans have control over. Tell me, where does free will play into disease and natural disasters?

Over 100,000 people died in the Haiti earthquake. How does free will play into that?
Click to expand...

Because that’s a favourite question of atheists that assume that were there a God, why would he allow it to happen. Free will doesn’t come into natural disasters because they’re not man made.
 
John V said:
I didn't mention Australia or Iran and I'm not a Hindu. Next.
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You made a statement about secular nations being worse than religious nations, I objectively proved you false. You hold a statement of disbelief is the same as a belief, if you don't believe in Vishnu, you're a Hindu.
 
John V said:
Because that’s a favourite question of atheists that assume that were there a God, why would he allow it to happen. Free will doesn’t come into natural disasters because they’re not man made.
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Why did God create smallpox?
 
spud_meister said:
Why did God create smallpox?
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I did indeed. The worst atrocities of the 20th century have been in those who denied the existence of God. I haven’t a clue as to what you’re referring to with Hinduism and Vishnu and the smallpox comment isn’t worthy of a reply. OK, I’ve had my say and I look forward to your thread on disproving that God exists. Hint: Read the bit about going forever round in circles and belief systems. :)
 
In order for us to disprove it, you first have to provide proof that it does exist. The default position is non-existence until proven, otherwise Unicorns, Bigfoot, and the FSM. (PBUH)
 
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spud_meister said:
Are you saying Australia is a worse place to live than Iran because of the secular nature of society?
Click to expand...

Australia is a worse place to live because everything is trying to kill you there.
 
Manc Skipper said:
In order for us to disprove it, you first have to provide proof that it does exist. The default position is non-existence until proven, otherwise Unicorns, Bigfoot, and the FSM. (PBUH)
Click to expand...

FSM is easy to prove, just boil some pasta and throw it in the air.
 
John V said:
My attempt to define the differences between a belief and science.

Religion continues to have a bad press and the comments are legion and repetitive; you can’t prove God exists; why does God allow wars and famine; I’m an atheist, I don’t believe in God . . .
Let’s take those comments one at a time:

You can’t prove God exists
There are two systems of thought, belief (opinion) and scientific fact (proof). You can’t prove or disprove an existence of God because it’s a belief and so to say that God doesn’t exist is a belief in itself. It’s why debates about the existence of God go round in never ending circles trying unsuccessfully to scientifically prove or disprove a belief.

Why does God allow wars and famine?
God doesn’t, God allows the individual free will. God doesn’t cause wars and famine, man does, often in the name of God. You could ‘Feed the world’, it’s simply cheaper not to and people don’t start wars, politicians do. When man assumes authority over God, bad things invariably follow.

I’m an atheist, I don’t believe in God
A belief in nothing is itself a belief. Beliefs are the default of mankind, be it a piece of rock, the sun or an ideology, it’s as old as history itself. Take away a belief in God and the belief will turn to a leadership cult, money, nationalism . . . but it won’t leave a vacuum. Looking back over the 20th century, the mass graves throughout Europe came from those atheists that didn’t believe in God, but the power of man to create a perfect society.

Religion gives a set of moral standards and values by which to live. Start to dismantle those values and replace them with man-made alternative values of money, cult leadership or political ideologies and history tells us that it always ends in disaster.

Back to the future and welcome to the new age, take your pick; they’re all beliefs from those that ridicule the existence of God as a belief.

View attachment 67184613 View attachment 67184614 View attachment 67184615
Click to expand...

I think you have defined the difference between those who value straight thinking and honesty above social fitting in and the religious.

My default position is that I don't know.

The religious default position is to make up an answer. That this helps because there are always answers and there is always somebody who will have an answer. That there is never a "nobody knows" position to scare you.
 
BrewerBob said:
Your "Why does God allow wars and famine?" bullet is disingenuous. You specifically picked things that humans have control over. Tell me, where does free will play into disease and natural disasters?

Over 100,000 people died in the Haiti earthquake. How does free will play into that?
Click to expand...

What would happen in a world where people didn't die? We have 7 billion people.

I could also argue that our deaths wouldn't be in such large numbers if we didn't have such large populations, but really...people have to die. You and me wouldn't have gotten a turn otherwise.
 
Tim the plumber said:
I think you have defined the difference between those who value straight thinking and honesty above social fitting in and the religious.

My default position is that I don't know.

The religious default position is to make up an answer. That this helps because there are always answers and there is always somebody who will have an answer. That there is never a "nobody knows" position to scare you.
Click to expand...

I'm religious. In fact. I am a Christian. A common answer to questions I use is "I don't know."

Your argument assumes the position for the religious. You being "not religious" makes it hard for you to speak for those who are. Hell...my religious beliefs don't allow me to speak for everyone with religion.

"Straight thinking" and scientific beliefs are not exclusive to non believers. That is a wholly stupid and illogical argument frequently made by the non religious to discredit believers.
 
stonewall50 said:
I'm religious. In fact. I am a Christian. A common answer to questions I use is "I don't know."

Your argument assumes the position for the religious. You being "not religious" makes it hard for you to speak for those who are. Hell...my religious beliefs don't allow me to speak for everyone with religion.

"Straight thinking" and scientific beliefs are not exclusive to non believers. That is a wholly stupid and illogical argument frequently made by the non religious to discredit believers.
Click to expand...

Belief in the existance of God/gods is not supportable with evidence. Thus if somebody does believe in the great sky daddy that is evidence that they do not think straight, or in a skeptical scientific fashion.

You are Christian. If you can answer the question "What makes your God ideas more credible than the Hindu gods which you and I agree are drivel?" then you can claim to be thinking straight to some degree in this matter. Please note that they also have sacred books etc.
 
stonewall50 said:
What would happen in a world where people didn't die? We have 7 billion people.

I could also argue that our deaths wouldn't be in such large numbers if we didn't have such large populations, but really...people have to die. You and me wouldn't have gotten a turn otherwise.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with death. But I think we could manage in a world where children weren't crushed to death. I'm funny that way.
 
Tim the plumber said:
Belief in the existance of God/gods is not supportable with evidence. Thus if somebody does believe in the great sky daddy that is evidence that they do not think straight, or in a skeptical scientific fashion.
Click to expand...

So me being a Christian, I don't believe in science? I don't believe in evolution? I don't believe in the Big Bang theory? Oh wait! I do! They aren't mutually exclusive. Someone who is treating them as if they are...is not thinking straight.

You are Christian. If you can answer the question "What makes your God ideas more credible than the Hindu gods which you and I agree are drivel?"
Click to expand...

2 part answer.

1) I have faith. I don't really know why. But I have faith. That is the purpose of faith.

2) Why do you think I give a poop what you think of Hinduism? You aren't the center of the solar system. That is the sun. Faith is personal.

then you can claim to be thinking straight to some degree in this matter
Click to expand...

I am thinking straight. I'm certainly not acting as if religion is a reason to treat someone as my lesser. I also am not stupid enough to assume someone's religion prevents them from believing in the sciences. That is some moronic crap.


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Please note that they also have sacred books etc. [/COLOR]
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Why do I care?


I think you just don't understand religion. That's ok. If you spent time actually learning how religious people thought...you might be knowledgeable on this topic. But a monkey could fly out of my butt too. My money is on the monkey.
 
BrewerBob said:
Nothing wrong with death. But I think we could manage in a world where children weren't crushed to death. I'm funny that way.
Click to expand...

You think you might, but only because you understand how terrible that is. What do you know of a world where nothing bad happens? Have you ever lived in one? Can you really understand what GOOD is without bad?


I personally believe God works all things for good, but we may have no clue about what that is. What may come from it. But that is me. I don't really care how YOU rationalize the evil in this world, but I don't know if I could rationalize it if it were for NOTHING.
 
What's good about a worm that lives by blinding children when it burrows into their eyeball?
 
stonewall50 said:
So me being a Christian, I don't believe in science? I don't believe in evolution? I don't believe in the Big Bang theory? Oh wait! I do! They aren't mutually exclusive. Someone who is treating them as if they are...is not thinking straight.



.
Click to expand...


I see it as a matter of intelligence and the fear factor, myself.

An intelligent Christian is able to view science as a tool used to reveal the wonders of God's workings. They are able to view the stories in the Bible in terms of parable, and understand that if would be of little use to explain quantum physics to ancient nomads who had no ability to comprehend it. Conversely, unintelligent people are threatened by complexity, and are literalist in orientation. They cling steadfastly to the most simple explanations for things and so fight tooth and nail against anything that counters their simplistic world view.
 
stonewall50 said:
So me being a Christian, I don't believe in science? I don't believe in evolution? I don't believe in the Big Bang theory? Oh wait! I do! They aren't mutually exclusive. Someone who is treating them as if they are...is not thinking straight.



2 part answer.

1) I have faith. I don't really know why. But I have faith. That is the purpose of faith.

2) Why do you think I give a poop what you think of Hinduism? You aren't the center of the solar system. That is the sun. Faith is personal.



I am thinking straight. I'm certainly not acting as if religion is a reason to treat someone as my lesser. I also am not stupid enough to assume someone's religion prevents them from believing in the sciences. That is some moronic crap.


.

Why do I care?


I think you just don't understand religion. That's ok. If you spent time actually learning how religious people thought...you might be knowledgeable on this topic. But a monkey could fly out of my butt too. My money is on the monkey.
Click to expand...

My position is that whilst you may well think well about other things in the world your thinking about God is faith based and as such that bit of your thinking is not scientific. It is not thinking straight it is faith. Faith is what you believe in spite of the evidence.

That is why you cannot answer the challenge/question I put to you.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Atheism is not belief in nothing, it is not having a belief in gods. Your argument falls over itself.
Click to expand...

Well, that's disappointing. I keep hoping the belief in nothing can be established once and for all as a religion.

I have been waiting all my life for a definitive answer to the age-old question "is nothing sacred?".
 
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