Thread: The Riddle of Epicurus

What defines such acts as evil? And once again what is your basis for using the word "evil"?

Originally Posted by The Baron

This is an opinion.

I could tell you about that piano that's about to fall on you, but y'know it's just an opinion that it would be good for you to avoid it.

Originally Posted by The Baron

And do tell…how did I do that without ever saying that?

How come he doesn't prevent natural disasters.

Originally Posted by The Baron

This is delusional.

Seem pretty spot on to me.

Originally Posted by The Baron

Christianity has answers for evil. You may not like the answers we have and so be it.

It has bad excuses that make no sense. Could God have stopped the tsunami? If yes then why didn't he? If no then how is he omipotent?

Originally Posted by The Baron

But the problem of evil is far more difficult for secularists to explain. Secularists have no basis for even using the word “evil” or any basis for judging something as evil.

How do you judge whether something is evil or not?

Originally Posted by The Baron

Kill someone…that’s only survival of the fittest.

Push someone off a building...that's only gravity.

...

Wait, just because something is a certain way in nature doesn't mean that it's good. Besides, we would be a less fit species if everyone went around killing each-other.

Originally Posted by The Baron

Rape a child…without a moral standard (i.e. Christianity) how can you judge something like this as evil. It’s all just very “natural”, right?

If you need some kind of guide to tell you that raping a child is evil... I don't even know what to say.

Originally Posted by scourge99

Then you'd agree god is able to stop evil but unwilling to stop evil.

Why is god unwilling to stop natural disasters, HIV, ecotopic pregnancies and other diseases and events which cause great suffering and agonizing deaths that are not the result of people's actions?

read the book of job.

Originally Posted by DarkWizard12

read the book of job.

"Because I'm God don't question me"?

Originally Posted by Anarcho-fascist

"Because I'm God don't question me"?

thats not the lesson of job.

Originally Posted by DarkWizard12

thats not the lesson of job.

What do you think happens in Job? It basically goes like this: God and Satan are hanging out and God goes "Hey Job is a pretty good guy what with all his praising of me etc." and Satan goes "He only does that cause you bless him so much" and God goes "Oh yeah!? Well lets see about that. I'll let you make Job's life a living hell!" First Job's livestock are killed then his children. He's very distraught but he says "God gives, God takes, bless God".

Then God says to Satan "See I told you!", but Satan says "Pah! I can do better than that." and God says "fine just don't kill him" ... So Job ends up scraping his boils with potsherds in a dung heap and his wife says "Just curse God and die already!" But Job say "you gotta take the good with the bad."

Then Job's friends suggest that he's in this state because he has sinned (the story makes it clear that he is righteous and wasn't sinning even when all of these terrible thing were going on). Job then begs God to show him where he has gone wrong. Then God appears

Originally Posted by Job 38 NIV

1 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
...
31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?
...
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

Originally Posted by Job 39 NIV

1 “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
...
9 “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?
...
19 “Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
...
26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.

Originally Posted by Job 40 NIV

1 The LORD said to Job:

2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”

3 Then Job answered the LORD:

4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”

6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:

7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.

15 “Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
...
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?

Originally Posted by Job 41 NIV

1 [a]“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6 Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
...
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
...
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”

Originally Posted by Job 42 NIV

1 Then Job replied to the LORD:
2 “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”

God then tells Job's "friends" to repent and sacrifice stuff cause they spoke falsely about God.
Job then gets rich again, gets new replacement children and dies at 140.

The moral of the story is: God can be a dick if he wants to 'cause he's God.

Originally Posted by Anarcho-fascist

What do you think happens in Job? It basically goes like this: God and Satan are hanging out and God goes "Hey Job is a pretty good guy what with all his praising of me etc." and Satan goes "He only does that cause you bless him so much" and God goes "Oh yeah!? Well lets see about that. I'll let you make Job's life a living hell!" First Job's livestock are killed then his children. He's very distraught but he says "God gives, God takes, bless God".

Then God says to Satan "See I told you!", but Satan says "Pah! I can do better than that." and God says "fine just don't kill him" ... So Job ends up scraping his boils with potsherds in a dung heap and his wife says "Just curse God and die already!" But Job say "you gotta take the good with the bad."

Then Job's friends suggest that he's in this state because he has sinned (the story makes it clear that he is righteous and wasn't sinning even when all of these terrible thing were going on). Job then begs God to show him where he has gone wrong. Then God appears




God then tells Job's "friends" to repent and sacrifice stuff cause they spoke falsely about God.
Job then gets rich again, gets new replacement children and dies at 140.

The moral of the story is: God can be a dick if he wants to 'cause he's God.

and yet, you still don't understand the parable. Yes, you can interpret it as such, but thats not the moral of the lesson. Can G-d "be a dick" if he wants to? well, it would seem so, but the rest of the bible says otherwise. Without going too much into it, point-by-point, basically, G-d cannot disobey his own commandments, for to do so would be a sin, which is disconnection from G-d, and how can G-d disconnect from G-d?

So no, it's not to "be a dick", your interpretation is rendered thoroughly wrong.

The book tackles the question of why G-d allows evil in the world. G-d did not give an answer because an answer was already given 4 times in different ways. At the very beginning, where Satan is able to enter and commune with G-d in heaven. Would a truly "evil entity", as we know it, be able to speak to G-d personally? No...the answer is, "good and evil" are not opposing forces, but more like "yin and yang", forces that both serve G-d to achieve balance. This answer and it's meaning of course, flies in the face of yours and western understanding of "good and evil"; afterall, we like to say "Well, this is MY opinion, which is opposite of yours so, I must be right, yours must be wrong, and therefore, bad!" but...oh well... *sigh*

The other 3 answers can be found by reading Job's friends, but im not getting into that.

So, now that we know why evil exists, we are prepared to answer all other concerns within the book. such as "why job? etc. etc. etc", but those are, of course, secondary to this thread.

Originally Posted by DarkWizard12

and yet, you still don't understand the parable. Yes, you can interpret it as such, but thats not the moral of the lesson. Can G-d "be a dick" if he wants to? well, it would seem so, but the rest of the bible says otherwise. Without going too much into it, point-by-point, basically, G-d cannot disobey his own commandments, for to do so would be a sin, which is disconnection from G-d, and how can G-d disconnect from G-d?

So no, it's not to "be a dick", your interpretation is rendered thoroughly wrong.

The book tackles the question of why G-d allows evil in the world. G-d did not give an answer because an answer was already given 4 times in different ways. At the very beginning, where Satan is able to enter and commune with G-d in heaven. Would a truly "evil entity", as we know it, be able to speak to G-d personally? No...the answer is, "good and evil" are not opposing forces, but more like "yin and yang", forces that both serve G-d to achieve balance. This answer and it's meaning of course, flies in the face of yours and western understanding of "good and evil"; afterall, we like to say "Well, this is MY opinion, which is opposite of yours so, I must be right, yours must be wrong, and therefore, bad!" but...oh well... *sigh*

The other 3 answers can be found by reading Job's friends, but im not getting into that.

So, now that we know why evil exists, we are prepared to answer all other concerns within the book. such as "why job? etc. etc. etc", but those are, of course, secondary to this thread.

What God does in Job is disgusting no matter what excuses you want to make.

Originally Posted by Anarcho-fascist

What God does in Job is disgusting no matter what excuses you want to make.

So? and?

(10 characters)

What God does in Job is disgusting no matter what excuses you want to make.

Originally Posted by DarkWizard12

So? and?

Why do you willingly worship such a disgusting god?