Thread: The Riddle of Epicurus

Originally Posted by digsbe

God punishes evil but allows us to commit it. He is the judge, and He gives us free will.

So... about that tsunami do you know who committed it?

Originally Posted by DarkWizard12

No, but it answers the riddle.

God was...almost a thousand years(?) ahead of epicuras.

Then you'd agree god is able to stop evil but unwilling to stop evil.

Why is god unwilling to stop natural disasters, HIV, ecotopic pregnancies and other diseases and events which cause great suffering and agonizing deaths that are not the result of people's actions?

Originally Posted by scourge99

Then you'd agree god is able to stop evil but unwilling to stop evil.

Why is god unwilling to stop natural disasters, HIV, ecotopic pregnancies and other diseases and events which cause great suffering and agonizing deaths that are not the result of people's actions?

*shrugs*

Maybe God thinks that Earth/nature is > or more beautiful than the sum of average people?

or: When your muscle burns does it not grow stronger?

When you walk rocky paths barefoot do your feet's soles not becomes tougher?

Would you want to live in a world with zero variables? To me that seems like a prison. Robotic if you will (As Goshin pointed out)

Without people building their houses on sand or stone we wouldnt have fools or wisemen.

Having zero fools sounds nice. But would you be willing to give up wisdom? If you believe in free will then we need fools to accidentally give up the plans of evil men and fools to build their houses in dangerous places. Otherwise people wouldnt be able to save them and prove they did good.

Pain is the keystone to compassion. A baby doesnt understand it has the power to hurt others until it somehow gets hurt itself.

It is the struggle that truly defines us and reveals who we are behind the mask we wear for others (and sometimes ourself). (Talk is talk. Trials prove) A person does not know their tolarance (or what actions they will commit under duress) until they first feel a form of dispair.

Originally Posted by Anarcho-fascist

So... about that tsunami do you know who committed it?

Did anyone have to "commit" it? Bad things happen because we live in a fallen creation that has chosen sin. God allows evil to happen because he gives us free will. That said, God judges evil.

Originally Posted by digsbe

Did anyone have to "commit" it? Bad things happen because we live in a fallen creation that has chosen sin. God allows evil to happen because he gives us free will. That said, God judges evil.

How are tsunamis caused by free will?

Simple question: please present an action that you would call evil if your god performed it.

Please provide the action and an explanation about why it is evil.

First off, please allow me to apologize for taking so long to respond. Every once in a while my job gets in the way of really important stuff.

“You created a straw-man and knocked it down. So instead of creating…” - scourge99

I was only pointing out the obvious.

“You do NOT address this later in your post.” - scourge99

Sorry. I won’t make that mistake again.

“Am I to understand that you believe it is necessary for children to die slowly with great suffering from things like HIV (which they acquired from birth) because God wants to test other people against the ‘family structure’?” - scourge99

No. I was only pointing out that there are social structures in place to:

1. protect children.

2. to provide comfort to those that do suffer.

“If it is then…” - scourge99

It’s not.

“It would seem that your God could quite easily do the following and still…” - scourge99

Why? Because you seem to think He should?

Have you considered the fact that the issues you bring up are a result of the man’s fall and the introduction of sin into the world? Sin is here by our choice--not by God’s. Why hold Him responsible for the effect of sin in this world?

“Perhaps I am defining god in a secularist world view and perhaps I am not. What you completely fail to do is:
1) explain how I am presenting god in a "typical secularist world view" - scourge99

It’s not complicated. There is a biblical world view and a secularist world view of God (as with all things). You are not basing your views on any biblical view. You are, instead, defining a view of God based upon your own understand.
Very typical of secularist.

“2) explain how I am defining god in my own terms and then declaring he is not god.” - scourge99

Oh! Are you not? Have I somehow misunderstood your position? Isn’t your position “…god is unwilling or unable to prevent such things from happening, which is evil.”? (your post no. 14)
If I am mistaken about your position then, by all means, straighten me out here.

“4) present the non ‘typical secularist worldview’ that explains away the problem presented.” - scourge99

As I have already alluded to the “non-typical secularist worldview” is a biblical view of God. As that applies here I would say that we have a God that has created man and a world that was to function according to His ways. However, the introduction of sin into the world changed all of that and affected every part of man (physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, etc.). Sin also affected this world in which we live. The problems you have pointed out (disease, etc.) are ultimately a part of our world because of man’s poor choices…not God’s. As such, He is blameless for our suffering. But instead of being grateful when He intercedes for us and comforting us when we suffer, the secularist view is to blame God for suffering when He does not.

And as I’ve already submitted, this "riddle" tries to force God to be defined inside a bubble that ignores free will, the origin or evil, man's fallen nature and God's prescription for salvation.

Originally Posted by The Baron

[FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="black"]First off, please allow me to apologize for taking so long to respond. Every once in a while my job gets in the way of really important stuff.

no problem. I'm glad you have such interest in this discussion.

Originally Posted by The Baron

“It would seem that your God could quite easily do the following and still…” - scourge99

Why? Because you seem to think He should?

because if he is capable but unwilling then he is malevolent.

Originally Posted by The Baron

Have you considered the fact that the issues you bring up are a result of the man’s fall and the introduction of sin into the world?

...

As that applies here I would say that we have a God that has created man and a world that was to function according to His ways. However, the introduction of sin into the world changed all of that and affected every part of man (physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, etc.). Sin also affected this world in which we live. The problems you have pointed out (disease, etc.) are ultimately a part of our world because of man’s poor choices…not God’s. As such, He is blameless for our suffering. But instead of being grateful when He intercedes for us and comforting us when we suffer, the secularist view is to blame God for suffering when He does not.

Originally Posted by The Baron

Sin is here by our choice--not by God’s. Why hold Him responsible for the effect of sin in this world?

Thank you. You have explained quite clearly that your god is unwilling to prevent earthquakes, HIV, ectopic pregnancies, and tsunamis because he believes it is PUNISHMENT for people's choices and because he desires WORSHIP when he intercedes for the suffering he is responsible for inflicting.

The god you have described is evil and immoral IN THE EXTREME.
1) Your god sees it necessary to cause suffering and death to children, babies, and other people.
2) Your god sees it necessary to perform GROUP punishment for the actions of individuals.
2) Your god causes suffering and death but expects us to be grateful when he grants us reprieves from the suffering and death HE alone is responsible for.

You also present a perfect example of morality mangled by Christian indoctrination:
1) You believe that children, babies, and adults who suffer and/or die from tsunami's, HIV, ectopic pregnancies, etc, DESERVE it.
2) You believe that the crimes of our friends, ancestors, and others make everyone DESERVING of group punishment.
3) you present psychological condition quite similar to "battered wife syndrome".

I have substituted "abuser" with "god" for your viewing pleasure:

The syndrome develops in response to a three stage cycle found in domestic violence situations. First, tension builds in the relationship. Second, [God] releases violence whilst blaming the victim for having caused the violence. Third, [B][God] makes gestures of contrition. However, the partner does not find solutions to avoid another phase of [sin] so the cycle repeats. The repetition of the violence despite the abusers attempts to "make nice" results in the abused partner feeling at fault for not preventing a repeat cycle of violence. However since she is not at fault and the violence is internally driven by [god's] need to control, this self-blame results in feelings of helplessness rather than empowerment. The feeling of being both responsible for and helpless to stop the violence leads in turn to depression and passivity. This learned depression and passivity make it difficult for the abused partner to marshall the resources and support system needed to leave

Thank you for explaining why the problem of evil has been and continues to be an insurmountable problem for Christianity and all other religions that propose an all powerful and all-knowing god.

“because if he is capable but unwilling then he is malevolent.” - scourge99
This is an opinion.

“Thank you. You have explained quite clearly that your god is unwilling to prevent earthquakes, HIV, ectopic pregnancies, and tsunamis because he believes it is PUNISHMENT for people's choices and because he desires WORSHIP when he intercedes for the suffering he is responsible for inflicting.” - scourge99

And do tell…how did I do that without ever saying that?

“The god you have described is evil and immoral IN THE EXTREME.
1) Your god sees it necessary to cause suffering and death to children, babies, and other people.
2) Your god sees it necessary to perform GROUP punishment for the actions of individuals.
2) Your god causes suffering and death but expects us to be grateful when he grants us reprieves from the suffering and death HE alone is responsible for.

You also present a perfect example of morality mangled by Christian indoctrination:
1) You believe that children, babies, and adults who suffer and/or die from tsunami's, HIV, ectopic pregnancies, etc, DESERVE it.
2) You believe that the crimes of our friends, ancestors, and others make everyone DESERVING of group punishment.
3) you present psychological condition quite similar to ‘battered wife syndrome’.” - scourge99

This is delusional.

“Thank you for explaining why the problem of evil has been and continues to be an insurmountable problem for Christianity…” - scourge99

Total crap!

Christianity has answers for evil. You may not like the answers we have and so be it.

But the problem of evil is far more difficult for secularists to explain. Secularists have no basis for even using the word “evil” or any basis for judging something as evil.

Kill someone…that’s only survival of the fittest.

Rape a child…without a moral standard (i.e. Christianity) how can you judge something like this as evil. It’s all just very “natural”, right?

Oh, I would love to have this conversation!

You don't need Christianity to have a moral standard. I don't need a god to tell me that raping a child is wrong, or to give me permission to dispense justice.