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Islam Q&A & Discussion

Awesome :) Nice to meet ya, thanks for sharing.

NP.. You're telling them the things I have told them in the past.. but you better word everything than me, and I have had gotten some of the same reactions. We aren't middle eastern Muslims.. so I don't really relate nor do I understand why we should defend or try to discuss this issue from that POV. I have never been to the middle east either.

I think children of Muslim parents and children of Muslim immigrants do not really relate to anybody in America.. I know that is the case with my friends anyway. They don't relate to their parents. It's a tough situation to be in sometimes..
 
Dumbest stuff I've heard. You're basing this all on the premise that CAIR is connected to terrorism. Every Muslim is allegedly connected to terrorism, because they find the most crazy of links. "His teacher was friends with the teacher who taught at --- which is where ---*some terrorist*--- studied"...right. CAIR is a wonderful organization, and I know many people within CAIR...

*Anti-CAIR* Defending America from the Council on American-Islamic Relations
(Much more at website above)



Royer.jpg

Randall "Ismail" Royer

CAIR-National Civil Rights Coordinator
& Communications Specialist

*CONVICTED*
Committed Terrorist Crimes while working for CAIR
Pled guilty to using and discharging a firearm during, and in relation to,
a crime of violence; and with carrying an explosive during commission
of a felony ... admitted helping four people gain entry to a terrorist
training camp in Pakistan operated by Lashkar-e-Taiba.
[United States Of America V. Randall Todd Royer (pdf)]


Royer.jpg

Ghassan Elashi
Founder Of CAIR-Texas
Chairman of Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development

*CONVICTED*

Sentenced To 65 Years In Federal Prison

Committed Terrorist Crimes while working for CAIR
Tried on 21 counts of conspiracy, money laundering and dealing
in property of a terrorist. Found guilty on all 21 counts.

[United States of America V. HLF (pdf)​
 
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The Baron said:
Quran 4:89
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Musa said:
This very short video (3 minutes) addresses this exact verse, which is often quoted (or shall I say, mistranslated): YouTube - Can Muslims Take Jews and Christians as Friends?

The word is not "friends," but rather "protectors." However, this is speaking of a specific people who had waged war against the Muslims. This is warning Muslims against treasonous activity and taking enemies as protectors. This would be similar to Americans telling fellow Americans Muslims, "Do not trust Al-Qaeda, they will not actually help you, but rather deceive you!" or something of that nature (poor attempt to put things in context lol)

If you do not watch the video: please note that not only can Muslims befriend non-Muslims, but Muslim men can even marry non-Muslim monotheist women! The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) had himself married a Christian woman named Maria.
First, you are responding to the wrong Verse or at the very least.. mixing and matching.
The verse your are responding to is NOT 4:89 but mostly 5:51
[al-Ma'idah 5:51.8] O ye who believe! Take Not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them.
Lo! Allah guideth Not wrongdoing folk.
(Pickthall)
Tho many transalations do use 'protectors' in parenthesis or even instead. And BTW it's good practice for Everyone in the string to cite precisely which translation they are quoting. In this case, I'm using Pickthall.

But if we 'go to the books' and not a BS anecdotal youtubes from some inner city imam!...
Lets do a REAL "Q&A", not the most facile link available.

I think the most esteemed choice in discerning the actual meaning would be Ibn Kathir.. the tafsirs. (those of you unfamiliar, Google Tafsir or Ibn Kathir)
NO Political BS/PC at that time in history.
Just the true discernment of "Allah's" meaning.
(Not that the current/or any extant 'Koran' is a faithful repro of that supposed message)

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The Prohibition of Taking the Jews, Christians and Enemies of Islam as Friends


Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah Curse them.
Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this,

[وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ]

(And if any among you befriends them, then surely he is one of them.) Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that 'Umar ordered Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari to send him on one sheet of balance the count of what he took in and what he spent.
Abu Musa then had a Christian scribe, and he was able to comply with `Umar's demand. `Umar liked what he saw and exclaimed,
"This scribe is proficient.
Would you read in the Masjid a letter that came to us from Ash-Sham'' Abu Musa said, `He cannot.'' `
Umar said, "Is he Not Pure'' Abu Musa said, "No, but he is Christian.'' Abu Musa said, "So `Umar admonished me and poked my thigh (with his finger), saying, "Drive him out (from Al-Madinah).' He then recited,

[يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ]

(O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends...)'' Then he reported that `Abdullah bin `Utbah said, "Let one of you beware that he might be a Jew or a Christian, while unaware.'' The narrator of this statement said, "We thought that he was referring to the Ayah,

[يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ]

(O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, )'' Allah said,

[فَتَرَى الَّذِينَ فِى قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ]

(And you see those in whose hearts there is a disease...) A disease of doubt, hesitation and hypocrisy.

[يُسَـرِعُونَ فِيهِمْ]

(they hurry to their friendship,) meaning, they rush to offer them their friendship and allegiances in secret and in public,

[يَقُولُونَ نَخْشَى أَن تُصِيبَنَا دَآئِرَةٌ]

(saying: "We fear lest some misfortune of a disaster may befall us.") They thus offer this excuse for their friendship and allegiances to the disbelievers, saying that they fear that the disbelievers might defeat the Muslims, so they want to be in favor with the Jews and Christians, to use this favor for their benefit in that eventuality! Allah replied,

[فَعَسَى اللَّهُ أَن يَأْتِىَ بِالْفَتْحِ]

(Perhaps Allah may bring a victory...) referring to the conquering of Makkah, according to As-Suddi.

[أَوْ أَمْرٍ مِّنْ عِندِهِ]

(or a decision according to His will) requiring the Jews and Christians to pay the Jizyah, as As-Suddi stated,

[فَيُصْبِحُواْ]

(Then they will become) meaning, the hypocrites who gave their friendship to the Jews and Christians, will become,

[عَلَى مَآ أَسَرُّواْ فِى أَنفُسِهِمْ]

(for what they have been keeping as a secret in themselves) of allegiances,

[نَـدِمِينَ]

(regretful,) for their friendship with the Jews and Christians which did not benefit them or protect them from any harm. Rather, it was nothing but harm, as Allah exposed their true reality to His faithful servants in this life, although they tried to conceal it. When the signs that exposed their hypocrisy were compiled against them, their matter became clear to Allah's faithful servants. So the believers were amazed at these hypocrites who pretended to be believers, swearing to their faithfulness, yet their claims were all lies and deceit. This is why Allah said, s

[وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ أَهُـؤُلاءِ الَّذِينَ أَقْسَمُواْ بِاللَّهِ جَهْدَ أَيْمَـنِهِمْ إِنَّهُمْ لَمَعَكُمْ حَبِطَتْ أَعْمَـلُهُمْ فَأَصْبَحُواْ خَـسِرِينَ ]

(And those who believe will say, "Are these the men who swore their strongest oaths by Allah that they were with you'' All that they did has been in vain, and they have become the losers.)

[يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ مَن يَرْتَدَّ مِنكُمْ عَن دِينِهِ فَسَوْفَ يَأْتِى اللَّهُ بِقَوْمٍ يُحِبُّهُمْ وَيُحِبُّونَهُ أَذِلَّةٍ عَلَى الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعِزَّةٍ عَلَى الْكَـفِرِينَ يُجَـهِدُونَ فِى سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَلاَ يَخَـفُونَ لَوْمَةَ لائِمٍ ذلِكَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ يُؤْتِيهِ مَن يَشَآءُ وَاللَّهُ وَسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ - إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلوةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَوةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ - وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَـلِبُونَ ]

(54. O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islam), Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah, and never fearing the blame of the blamers. That is the grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower.)
(55. Verily, your Protector is Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, those who perform the Salah, and give Zakah, and they bow down.)
(56. And whosoever takes Allah, His Messenger, and those who have believed, as protectors, then the party of Allah will be the victorious.)
As to Muslims marrying non-muslims, I also suggest doing your own search,
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...id=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=muslim+marry+non-msulims
preferably Credible Islamic sources and not some wise-guy prison convert who has it Mostly WRONG.
Presenting that JOKER youtube is not serious discussion.
 
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Your entire post is invalid based on the sole fact that you have called Imam Siraj Wahhaj "some inner city imam" and "wise-guy prison convert who has it mostly WRONG." Are you racist? What makes you think he has been in prison?

He is one of the most prominent Imams/lecturers/teachers in the United States!

At least do a wikipedia search before slandering a fellow human being.

There are other tafsir as well buddy! And tons of them have different views regarding that verse. You are reading the verse in English, so forget the actual meanings of the words as you know it, and look at the context!

Look at how it refers to "guardianship" and "supporters," not simply affiliates! Have you ever studied al-andalus?
(O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends…) [5:51]. Said ‘Atiyyah al-‘Awfi: “‘Ubadah ibn al-Samit went to see the Prophet and asked him: ‘O Messenger of Allah! I have numerous clients from amongst the Jews, who are ever ready to support me. However, I stand before Allah and His Messenger to absolve myself from the guardianship of the Jews. And I turn, instead, to Allah and His Messenger’. Hearing this, ‘Abd Allah ibn Ubayy said: ‘I am a man who fears the turn of events and will not absolve myself from the guardianship of the Jews’. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, then said: ‘O Abu’l-Hubab, that which you reserve to yourself of the guardianship of the Jews apart from ‘Ubadah ibn al-Samit is all yours and none of it is his’. He said: ‘I accept’. And so Allah, exalted is He, revealed about the two of them: (O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another) up to His saying (And thou seest those in whose heart is a disease) [5:52], i.e. ‘Abd Allah ibn Ubayy (race toward them) for support (saying: We fear lest a change of fortune befall us)”.
-Al-Wahidi

(O ye who believe!) in Muhammad and the Qur'an. (Take not the Jews and Christians for friends) seeking their assistance and help. (They are friends one to another) He says: some are followers of the religion of others in secret and in the open, just as they are friends of each other. (He among you) O group of believers (who taketh them for friends) seeking their assistance and help (is (one) of them) in alliance and is not included in Allah's protection and safety. (Lo! Allah guideth not) to His religion and proof (wrong-doing folk) the Jews and Christians.
-Tanwir Al-Miqbas

None of them say you cannot have a friendly relationship with Jews or Christians. It simply forbids reliance on others, for events could at anytime change, especially during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). As I have mentioned, and as is UNANIMOUSLY agreed upon, the Qur'an allows Muslim men to marry non-Muslim women.

"...And the food of those who were given the Scripture (before you) is permitted to you and your food is permitted to them. And (lawful to you in marriage are) chaste women from the Believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture before you, when you give them their due cowers, desiring chastity, not lewdness or secret intrigues.... (Surah 5, Verse 5)​
 
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Your entire post is invalid based on the sole fact that you have called Imam Siraj Wahhaj "some inner city imam" and "wise-guy prison convert who has it mostly WRONG." Are you racist? What makes you think he has been in prison?

He is one of the most prominent Imams/lecturers/teachers in the United States!
Well that's a shame because he's obviously just talking from the seat of his pants. Citing NOTHING but convenience and partial partials.
While I Present Ibn Kathir who you also and deceptively try to also try to "invalidate" just because you like this Goofy Imam.
That's Right. Musa says Ibn Kathir is invalid because he likes whatever-his-name-is!

No response to the Tafsir/Ibn Kathir? "invalid."
There's no better source.
It's your post that's Laughable.
and spare me the Cat Stevens/Kanned-for-Kafir/Dawa Islam.
You're dealing with an experienced debater now.. you just can't pull youtubes or Islamonlines outa your hat.
Anyone can do that.
In fact, I'll throw them back at you. The ones you don't like from the same sources.
I [tried to] RAISE the level while you lower it with stuff like him.

No response to anti-cair and it's info and Convictions?
 
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I do not understand your issue with Imam Siraj Wahhaj. Is it because he is black, and therefore you associate him with a prison-convert who doesn't know anything about his religion? He's the leader of MANA (Muslim Alliance of North America), which is a massive organization: MANA - Muslim Alliance in North America. He studied at Umm Al-Qura, which is an extremely respected and traditional orthodox Islamic university in Mecca. Address your claim, and why Imam Siraj Wahhaj is a joke to you, first, and then I shall address your other claims. But before we can establish anything else - lets first establish that your not racist... for your own sake. Because frankly, I think you are. Furthermore, it is oh so easy for you to avoid the points that he actually makes by simply discrediting him. Explain how he is wrong, when in the video, he clearly translates the word "Awliya" (which I also know from my Arabic education, to mean "protector"!) And no, I did not invalidate Ibn Kathir. I can explain that, after you justify, clarify, and/or explain your racist statements.
 
AS I SAID, he's talking from the seat of his pants citing Nothing but convenience.
There's no scholarship or authority in his 3 minues, just a crowd-pleasing attempt.
AND .. he's Wrong, or at least so truncated about marriage as to be Wrong.

Again, I suggest everyone Google their own sources to see Muslim law on marrying non-muslims.
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...id=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=muslim+marry+non-muslims
Mosty of which CONTRADICT him. ie, http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543656
This guy was a JOKE.
Maybe he has some better work. You certainly didn't present it.

Ibn Kathir Remains and will do so after another 1000 years.
He's not "invalidated."
Oh.. and nothing in response to my 'anti-cair' post either.

The 'A' in Q&A has now changed.
 
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"Islam began as something strange, and it will return to being strange, so blessed are those (true Muslims) who are considered strange."

Your comment has reminded me of a video that I ran across a very long time ago ....


One of my most favourite lectures and it rings true of every Muslim
Islam is a religion for strangers and it will survive as long as those Muslims continue.
"But you should not ask for the rewards of the strangers, if you are not willing to act like one of the strangers". Absolute truth. Alhamdulillah

My father's family's background is Muslim so it's nice to see somebody else here with close ties to the religion. I wasn't raised to be anything, but I tend to agree with the Muslim views on God and Jesus the most. I didn't really want to get involved in that thread, because I have had these talks with people here before.

That is lovely to know. I wasn't aware :)
And I agree with you, I am avoiding this thread for that very reason. I know how this thread will end up because we have been there many times.
 
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Your comment has reminded me of a video that I ran across a very long time ago ....


One of my most favourite lectures and it rings true of every Muslim
Islam is a religion for strangers and it will survive as long as those Muslims continue.
"But you should not ask for the rewards of the strangers, if you are not willing to act like one of the strangers". Absolute truth. Alhamdulillah



That is lovely to know. I wasn't aware :)
And I agree with you, I am avoiding this thread for that very reason. I know how this thread will end up because we have been there many times.


me too. and this is a sad fact that we're unable to engage in a civil and intelligent discussion over our faith in this or any other forum.
 
<snip>But before we can establish anything else - lets first establish that your not racist... for your own sake. Because frankly, I think you are.</snip>

<snip>I can explain that, after you justify, clarify, and/or explain your racist statements.</snip>
Moderator's Warning:
Stop labeling posters that disagree with you as racist. Engaging in this tactic is not debate, but rather character assassination in lieu of debate. This is a warning to cease such inferences.
 
Your entire post is invalid based on the sole fact that you have called Imam Siraj Wahhaj "some inner city imam" and "wise-guy prison convert who has it mostly WRONG." Are you racist? What makes you think he has been in prison?

He is one of the most prominent Imams/lecturers/teachers in the United States!

At least do a wikipedia search before slandering a fellow human being.

There are other tafsir as well buddy! And tons of them have different views regarding that verse. You are reading the verse in English, so forget the actual meanings of the words as you know it, and look at the context!

Look at how it refers to "guardianship" and "supporters," not simply affiliates! Have you ever studied al-andalus?

-Al-Wahidi


-Tanwir Al-Miqbas

None of them say you cannot have a friendly relationship with Jews or Christians. It simply forbids reliance on others, for events could at anytime change, especially during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). As I have mentioned, and as is UNANIMOUSLY agreed upon, the Qur'an allows Muslim men to marry non-Muslim women.

"...And the food of those who were given the Scripture (before you) is permitted to you and your food is permitted to them. And (lawful to you in marriage are) chaste women from the Believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture before you, when you give them their due cowers, desiring chastity, not lewdness or secret intrigues.... (Surah 5, Verse 5)​

Imam Siraj Wahhaj ! Oh, he's prominent all right. And admittedly, he has done good things to stop drugs in poor communities and things like that. But just because someone does some good things doesn't mean that he also doesn't do bad things, and have seriously evil intentions. Even notorious killers do engage in certain nice/positive things, like Charles Manson who plays the guitar, and Adolph Hitler who did oil paintings.

On the negative side of Wahhaj, there's plenty to talk about. He has been quoted as having said “white people are devils." He said of this, “I preached it. I taught it.” (Wikipedia).
He has been vice president of the Islamic Society of North America since 1997 (Wikipedia), which in addition to being part of the notorious Muslim Brotherhood (# 1 Jihad org in the world), was also named by US Justice Dept. prosecutors as "unindicted co-conspirator" in the Holy Land Foundation trial, which sent members of them to prison for up to 65 years (life), for sending money to Hamas.

He also has publicly procalimed the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood as being his own, saying that Muslims need to elect a caliph to take over the United states and then establish a caliphate, and could do so if only they were more astute.
(Beila Rabinowitz and William A. Mayer, Florida Islamic Conference Outed as Jihad-Fest, Pipe-LineNews.org, Dec. 19, 2003). also (Jagan Kaul, "Kashmir: Kashmiri Pundit Viewpoint", Kashmir Telegraph, May 2002).
Addressing a Muslim audience in New Jersey, Wahhaj went on to say "If we were united and strong, we'd elect our own emir [leader] and give allegiance to him. . . . [T]ake my word, if 6-8 million Muslims unite in America, the country will come to us." (The Danger Within: Militant Islam in America :: Daniel Pipes)

Want more ? Wahhaj sponsored talks in New York City and New Jersey mosques, by Sheik Omar Abdel Raman, the "blind sheik" who was convicted of blowing up the World Trade Center, in the 1993 bombing of it. Wahhaj himself was designated an "unindicted co-conspirator" in that case.

All these are in line with Wahhaj's warnings that the United States will fall "unless it accepts the Islamic agenda". (Islam's Flawed Spokesmen, Salon, September 26, 2001.
 
I have to agree with VK's point here. There is not an absolute morality to this conflict. We both use violence that we shouldn't, and we both have legitimate grievances. This notion that we are always right and they are always wrong will keep a permanent divide between us and prevent peace from being achieved. We're not good. They're not evil. We're all just people. Our rhetoric paints Al Quaeda and the people they are fighting for in the same light they paint us. We need less hostility, not more, and we need more respect, not less.
You're arguing for more respect for Al Quada? No, I don't buy that we're just the same. These terrorists have been in jihad with us and Israel long before 9/11. This is a holy war for them and they don't win until we're eradicated. You cannot bargain with someone who wants your complete destruction. That's, incidentally, why there'll never be peace between Israel and Palestine. Hamas is committed to Israel's destruction, it's in their charter (I'll post the link if anyone doesn't believe this).
 
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They are feeding into those who associate Islam with terrorism. As someone who prayed most days throughout Ramadan at Park51 Mosque, I gladly lend it my full support. Its leadership goes beyond tolerance and respect, to a point of desire for true coexistence, understanding, and learning from one another. In fact, Imam Faisal Abdul-Rauf makes me look like an extremist! He is truly a pluralist in its most strong sense. The Community Center will have a 9/11 memorial, an interfaith room, a place for people of other faiths to pray, etc.. It is 2 blocks away from the World Trade Center, and if you know anything about real estate in NYC, it is not easy to get such a large property for such a cheap price. Imam Abdul Rauf has had a Mosque in the area (just about 8 blocks away as I recall) for a quarter of a century. He has widespread community-support, and every single member of the community board passed the proposal. It was only after Islamophobes like Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller caught on that it picked up any controversy. These are people who protest Mosques everywhere. It had nothing to do with the location, and everything to do with it being Islamic.
I don't know about "these people". Personally, I'm not concerned about other mosques, I do care about this one. As much as I'm sure you'd like to, the connection between 9/11 and Islam can never be denied. You say this mosque will have a 9/11 memorial? I'm sure that's true and that's part of the problem, it'll be all sympathetic to the hijackers (much as you have been). Any suggestion that this center is just about building bridges or fostering peace is just crap. How do I know? Because Rauf would not be pressing to build it once he saw the animosity it was creating. The Muslims quoted in that article I posted understand this and are the one's truly seeking peace.
 
Imam Siraj Wahhaj ! Oh, he's prominent all right. And admittedly, he has done good things to stop drugs in poor communities and things like that. But just because someone does some good things doesn't mean that he also doesn't do bad things, and have seriously evil intentions. Even notorious killers do engage in certain nice/positive things, like Charles Manson who plays the guitar, and Adolph Hitler who did oil paintings.

On the negative side of Wahhaj, there's plenty to talk about. He has been quoted as having said “white people are devils." He said of this, “I preached it. I taught it.” (Wikipedia).

That was when he was in the Nation of Islam. NOI is way different from Sunni Islam. I know plenty of brothers who have gone from NOI to Sunni Islam, and they become entirely different people. NOI was mostly desirable to blacks as a liberation and political force, while Islam is a religious one that preaches against racism. Imam Siraj Wahhaj has often spoke against racism, and if you knew anything about him, you would know that he most often speaks on the podium with Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, who is a white convert to Islam.

While Wahhaj credits the Nation of Islam for giving him “black pride,” he now says that the pride went too far when it spilled over into denigration of others. “In those few years with the Nation of Islam, I was other than myself,” he concedes.
Saudi Aramco World : The Imam of Bedford-Stuyvesant

He has been vice president of the Islamic Society of North America since 1997 (Wikipedia), which in addition to being part of the notorious Muslim Brotherhood (# 1 Jihad org in the world), was also named by US Justice Dept. prosecutors as "unindicted co-conspirator" in the Holy Land Foundation trial, which sent members of them to prison for up to 65 years (life), for sending money to Hamas.

Joke, Joke, Joke, Joke, Joke, and Lie! ISNA is an extremely mainstream moderate organization, and hosts the largest Islamic conference in North America. I go every year, and it is filled of interfaith activity and peace-preaching. Go read more about them, buddy. They even had a US military recruitment booth there :/

And no, the Holy Land Foundation did not fund terrorism. These are false allegations. They gave money to a hospital in Gaza that was run by Hamas, and thereby, accused of funding Hamas. This was money in Zakat, which cannot go to fighting Jihad. If it did go to fighters, then they obviously did not know about it. On another note, there are plenty of Hamas institutions in the West Bank and Gaza, and they are the most well-organized, because whether or not you think Hamas is a terrible organization - the masses of their members do ACTUALLY care for the people, as opposed to Fatah, who would simply pocket the money. And yes, I know this from personal experience.

He also has publicly procalimed the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood as being his own, saying that Muslims need to elect a caliph to take over the United states and then establish a caliphate, and could do so if only they were more astute.
(Beila Rabinowitz and William A. Mayer, Florida Islamic Conference Outed as Jihad-Fest, Pipe-LineNews.org, Dec. 19, 2003). also (Jagan Kaul, "Kashmir: Kashmiri Pundit Viewpoint", Kashmir Telegraph, May 2002).
Addressing a Muslim audience in New Jersey, Wahhaj went on to say "If we were united and strong, we'd elect our own emir [leader] and give allegiance to him. . . . [T]ake my word, if 6-8 million Muslims unite in America, the country will come to us." (The Danger Within: Militant Islam in America :: Daniel Pipes)

Instead of listening to what others say that he says, why don't you watch his videos and see what he says? He's a very public figure. This is the main issue with you guys. You prefer to listen to what others say about what these people say, as opposed to listening to what these people themselves say! Take an example: YouTube - ISNA Convention 2009 - Session 8A Part 7
...so this is what that radical imam preaches at that radical organization... tolerance towards other religions, shared similarities, beliefs, and practices, and being good human beings! Omg.

Want more ? Wahhaj sponsored talks in New York City and New Jersey mosques, by Sheik Omar Abdel Raman, the "blind sheik" who was convicted of blowing up the World Trade Center, in the 1993 bombing of it. Wahhaj himself was designated an "unindicted co-conspirator" in that case.

Lmao, "unindicted."

You guys are really off your rocking chairs.
 
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me too. and this is a sad fact that we're unable to engage in a civil and intelligent discussion over our faith in this or any other forum.

I have actually had debates while not stating my religious connection.. and I have had people opposing me argue, "I bet I know more about this religion than you do." :lol:

... and he kept saying that he knows more than me about Islam, and he knows more Muslims than me..

"You're being naive" he kept saying... that was funny and when I told him my background he left the thread. :2razz: :lol:
 
I have actually had debates while not stating my religious connection.. and I have had people opposing me argue, "I bet I know more about this religion than you do." :lol:

... and he kept saying that he knows more than me about Islam, and he knows more Muslims than me..

"You're being naive" he kept saying... that was funny and when I told him my background he left the thread. :2razz: :lol:

I need to experience that!

my problem is not with heated debate about Islam, I'm having that at real life pretty often, with muslims and non-muslims. no, that's definitely not it. it's just I sometimes feel insulted when someone considers me a liar by default, or just hates my religion so bad that even wants to prove me that I'm an evil person because I'm a muslim. that has leaded me to here, which I avoid involving in religious debate in the Internet altogether. I just don't see the point of it.
I see nice guys like Musa come here with a pure intention of clearing things up, and I see them getting angrier everyday for the same reasons, and I just hate to see them disappointed in the end. I've been there and that's why I can't stay quiet.
 
I need to experience that!

my problem is not with heated debate about Islam, I'm having that at real life pretty often, with muslims and non-muslims. no, that's definitely not it. it's just I sometimes feel insulted when someone considers me a liar by default, or just hates my religion so bad that even wants to prove me that I'm an evil person because I'm a muslim. that has leaded me to here, which I avoid involving in religious debate in the Internet altogether. I just don't see the point of it.
I see nice guys like Musa come here with a pure intention of clearing things up, and I see them getting angrier everyday for the same reasons, and I just hate to see them disappointed in the end. I've been there and that's why I can't stay quiet.

Where do you live? Where I live it isn't too bad.. I am not really practicing the religion though, but some of my friends do. It seems to be a pretty good community here many families of eastern decent. The person I am dating is actually of Mizrahi decent, but he doesn't practice any religion either. :2razz:

One of my friend's family is sort of creating their own problems. That is just my opinion though. They don't like their children dating outside of the religion. I know the rules about that in Islam, but they told their daughter they would disown her if she didn't break up with her boyfriend. I thought that that was really rough. She is still going to be their daughter no matter what. I just don't understand that.

She did break up with her boyfriend, but I think they should let their children make their own decisions.
 
Where do you live? Where I live it isn't too bad.. I am not really practicing the religion though, but some of my friends do. It seems to be a pretty good community here many families of eastern decent. The person I am dating is actually of Mizrahi decent, but he doesn't practice any religion either. :2razz:

One of my friend's family is sort of creating their own problems. That is just my opinion though. They don't like their children dating outside of the religion. I know the rules about that in Islam, but they told their daughter they would disown her if she didn't break up with her boyfriend. I thought that that was really rough. She is still going to be their daughter no matter what. I just don't understand that.

She did break up with her boyfriend, but I think they should let their children make their own decisions.

I actually live in the east. I'm an Iranian. I have a good community here, and we kinda have a multi-ideological atmosphere here too despite the common belief that everyone in middle east is born Muslim.

I'm totally against such things. in fact, they are more of a cultural issue than a religious issue. you actually can marry ahl al kitab (people of the book) in Islam, and in my opinion, marrying someone you love is the rightest thing one can do, regardless of the ideology of the person. this is one of the points me and my other Muslim friends usually don't agree on, and honestly I believe if the prophet (PBUH) were alive today, he wouldn't go so strict on such issues in this era. many of the strict rules of Islam are designed for the Arab society of 1400 years ago, and they shouldn't be applied to today's societies.
 
Part I​

“And it is not only American scholars who have condemned the attacks, but indeed scholars worldwide.” - Musa

Thanks for the list. It’s encouraging. At least there seems to be recognition by some in the Muslim community that they have a “P.R.” problem.

“The myth that suicide bombing is carried out solely (or even mostly) by Muslims has already been dispelled…” - Musa

I wouldn’t argue the point with you, however, there is no denying that suicide bombings are closely linked with Islamic terrorists--especially in the West. The facts--whatever they may be--are almost irrelevant as the perception is the reality that Muslims in the West are forced to deal with. This same perception will further affect Muslims around the world as national policies will be crafted in response to these perceptions.

“But martyrdom as you likely think of it (as a sacrifice of one's life to God) is a Christianized concept.” - Musa

I don’t seem to be the only one who is confused by martyrdom as there seems to be an endless supply Muslims willing to martyr themselves. I’ve even seen news reports of suicide schools in Palestine and elsewhere.

“The issue today is that many people prefer to follow those who they like as opposed to those who have the legitimate credentials” - Musa

So there’s no way to “define” legitimate credentials?

In Christianity, there is no real definition over what kind of credentials you must have to be considered “legitimate”, either, although we often talk of certain preachers being “called” by God.

We do, however, scrutinize over how biblical passages are interpreted. There are essentially two methods of interpretation (called “hermeneutics”) that is utilized today. One type is the allegorical method and is used by the Catholic Church. Basically, this method says that there is a “hidden” meaning behind certain verses. The problem with this method is that you can never know which verses have hidden meaning or what these verses say.

The other form of hermeneutics that is utilized is called the Literal, Historical and Grammatical Method. It’s one method with three parts and basically says that there verses are to be interpreted by:

a) Literally: Passages that can be interpreted literally should be so interpreted. When the Bible says that Jesus died and was resurrected on the third day we believe this a literal truth.

b) Grammatically: We understand that the Bible is filled with poems and metaphors. When Jesus said He was a “vine”, we understand that He was speaking metaphorically and don’t for a moment believe that He was a literal “vine”.

c) Historically: We understand that some things are in the Bible because they actually happened. They are historical facts. When David killed Goliath, we don’t believe that there is some spiritual concept to be learned here. David simply killed a giant.
We use this method as this is the method that Christ used when interpreting the Scriptures and Christ is always our example.

“Allah is not a single person in Islam. Allah is not a person at all.” - Musa

I don’t mean “person” as a flesh and blood being but a “person” in that he has a mind, and a will.

In Christianity, we understand that there is only one God consisting of three “persons”--the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and we refer to them as “persons” as they, too, have a mind and a will.

“Keep in mind that the Old Testament does not at all mention Yahweh in the way that Catholics do today. So do you have the same God as that which is in the Old Testament or not? Our description of God is VERY similar to that which is in the Old Testament. There is no quote in the Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself calls himself God. Quite the opposite, in fact.” - Musa

1. Allah is not the same god as the God of the Old Testament because…

2. The God of the Old Testament is the same God as the God of the New Testament and, yes, the Old Testament does refer to the three persons of God. God the Father is mentioned in the very first verse of the Bible. The Holy Spirit is named in the second verse of the Bible while Christ is not identified until later. In the Old Testament He is called the Angel of God and is recognized as God and accepts worship as God (contrast this behavior with an actual angel found in Revelation 19: 10).

“Jesus (pbuh) himself was said to have been tempted in the desert by Satan, and yet, God cannot possibly be tempted. Anyway, I do not wish to bring up a long and drawn out debate over Christianity. Perhaps we can start another thread in the near future as to whether Jesus (pbuh) really ever claimed Lordship. From an Islamic view, the God is the same, but Christians have changed the description of that very same God.” - Musa

I would enjoy such a discussion and would be glad to join you in another thread, but since you brought it up…

The Bible does say that we are not to tempt the Lord (Deuteronomy 6:16). But why would it say that unless we could tempt the Lord?

Understand that I am not saying that God can be tempted. Only that man can try to tempt God and, thus, the prohibition against it.

Jesus was taken to the desert to be tempted. But He was not tempted. In fact, He simply refers back to Deuteronomy 6:16 and tells Satan not to tempt Him (Matthew 4:7 & Luke 4:12).

And just for the sake of clarification, there is absolutely nothing that says that Christ was tempted. Only that He was taken to the desert to be tempted.

“It is Christian theologians who have connected these names to God - not Jesus (pbuh). Again, I realize this can enter a lengthy debate about the Bible. I will gladly start a thread tomorrow or the following day to state my case...” - Musa

Actually, it is the Bible that gives these names as names of God.

And, yes, do start a thread. I would enjoy in tremendously.

“Allah is incomprehensible in the sense that we have nothing that is similar to him. He is without a physical body and without mortal limits. Therefore, we do not believe in depictions of God (which often later become sources of idolatry) or descriptions of God which he or the prophets have not said about himself. But we believe very strongly that every human being should have a relationship with God.
God is closer to man than his own veins”
- Musa

There must be some difference of opinions between Muslims. In his book Who Is Allah in Islam, Abd-al-Masih stated that Allah was unknowable and anything that you may think about him is wrong.

“There are 99 names to which Allah is mentioned by in the Qur'an. The majority of them deal with his relationship to man.” - Musa

In scanning over the names of Allah that you linked to, I couldn’t help but notice that nowhere is Allah called “love” or “loving”. I see this as a big difference between Christianity and Islam as the Bible clearly states that God is love.

“By the way, might I ask what 'sort' of a Christian you are, my brother?” - Musa

I am a non-denominational, evangelical, Bible-believing, born-again Christian. In short…

…I’m one of “those people”.
 
Part II​

“Freedom of speech within an Islamic state is an entirely different topic, however…” - Musa

Whoa! Time Out! What?

Muslims don’t get free-speech? Why? And doesn’t that create something of a conflict for Muslim communities in America is one of ya’ll wants to practice those free-speech rights?

“…most Islamic legal jurists would agree that murdering Salmon Rushdie would be criminal in Islam, for it is stated by one of our greatest scholars (may Allah be pleased with him): ‘A Muslim residing under protection even in a hostile country must not molest its inhabitants.”’ - Musa

Help me out here ‘cause I don’t make the connection between Rushdie and the events surrounding his going into hiding and the verse you just shared.

“Basically what happened in the case of Solman Rushdie was that the Ayatollah of Iran said he should have been killed, and a lot of angry immigrant Muslims followed along - without understanding the values of free speech in Western society. This is the natural problem of an immigrant population that takes time to overcome.” - Musa

Immigrant Muslims?

“Jizya is paid by the non-Muslims, and Zakat is paid by the Muslims. In many cases, the payment of Zakat came out more than Jizya. It is impermissible that Jizya become a burden upon the population.” - Musa

Okay, okay--I may be asking the question the wrong way. I’m forgetting that Islam defines certain political / governmental systems (or however you want to define it). I guess what I’m trying to figure out is Jizya a religious tax (punitive for being a non-believer) or is it a “government” tax?

“Everyone is reacting to something. The invasion of Afghanistan was a reaction to 9/11. The attacks on the World Trade Center were a reaction to America's support of Israel, military bases in the Arabian Peninsula, 1998 bombings of Afghanistan and Sudan, and the sanctions of Iarq. All of those things, were reactions as well. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That does not excuse anything though.” - Musa

That’s a dodge but I don’t want to get bogged-down here. I’m more interested in Islamic religious beliefs than the history of war between Jews and Muslims.

“The United States – East Coast. And you?” - Musa

Dixie!

“Shall I continue?” - Musa

I can’t imagine why. I have no idea who most of those people are.

-now-​

Here’s what I find most interesting…

“Well you don't KNOW you are going to heaven. No one KNOWS it. You believe it. But why do you believe it?” - Musa

Christian’s not only believe it--we know it. The Bible very clearly tells us that can know that we have eternal life (going to Heaven) through Jesus Christ.

1 John 5: 11-13
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”

“You can be a christian, murder a man, and then go to heaven regardless?” - Musa

Yes, because our Salvation is not based on what we do but on what Christ has done for us. The Bible tells us that once we are saved our sins are removed from us as far as the “east is from the west” (Psalm 103: 12).

And which sins are removed from us?

All of them. Past, present and future.

Now Christians especially should not go around murdering people but, unfortunately, it is still possible to believe in something greater than yourself and fail to live up to it.

“In Islam, we do believe that every believer will one day attain heaven (there exist differences in belief in this regard).” - Musa

I dare say that there must be differences. It’s the first time I’ve ever heard it.

“But we believe that some may have to go through temporary hell (purgatory?) before entering heaven.” - Musa

Jeez, I thought that was the Catholics.

HA-HA-HA- HA-HA-HA- HA-HA-HA- HA-HA-HA!

Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

But, seriously, I think this is one of the starkest differences between Islam and Christianity. Muslims believe that they “may” go to Heaven. Christians have assurance that they will.

“But we believe that God is the most merciful and most forgiving. Man sins on a daily basis. We believe that if repented for, God forgives all of those sins. A Muslim should ask forgiveness for the sins that he is both aware and unaware of. Muhammad (pbuh) – a man guaranteed paradise - used to ask forgiveness 100 times a day! As long as a Muslim repents for his sins before his death, God willing, he will be forgiven.” - Musa

This is another one of those stark differences between Muslims and Christians and that Islam is a religion on works. The Bible is very clear that our efforts to establish our own “righteousnesses are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6).

"’Say: 'O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of God: for God forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.' (39:53)
We believe it is through the mercy of God that we attain heaven.”
- Musa

Will definitely attain Heaven? You have assurance?

“Remember that I am not my own teacher. Someone has taught me these things. We have many beautiful and wonderful scholars, who I think even you and the other members of this forum would enjoy. I have posted many videos throughout these many posts. I know most people do not like to take the time and watch videos. However, within these videos are some of my favorite Islamic lecturers and scholars. I will later make a post (when the time seems right) to explain exactly what Islam is. I'm afraid that I am speaking so much about what Islam is not – that I am forgetting to explain what Islam is! :P
Why do you think that is?”
- Musa

Based on your original post, you said you wanted to “defend my religion”. It seems you are aware that Islam is not well thought of and wish to correct what you view as erroneous beliefs that others may hold.

“Most Muslim scholars have got it right. Note: I have not said all. But Christianity and Judaism has its share of lunatic scholars as well.” - Musa

Fred Phelps comes to mind but, frankly, I don’t see how he can believe what he believes and be a “Christian”.

“In other words, a Muslim is not to allow his anger to overcome him. Ali (ra) released the man because if he were to kill him, it would have been due to the fact that the man spit at him, as opposed to the fact that he was fighting for a righteous cause. Intention is of utmost importance in Islam. Many of those who yell insults in the streets against the likes of Salmon Rushdie, are in fact, reacting to anger, and not thinking with knowledge and strategy, as is commanded by this beautiful religion.” - Musa

Like I said before, I think you should be in the Middle East right now straightening out the nuts ‘cause I have definitely seen enough video footage to know that there are a bunch of people over there that are not only mad…their furious.

“God bless” - Musa

You, too!
 
I'm not sure why your particular interpretation is better than anyone else's, especially since you are, by your own admission, not a scholar.

Perhaps if religious texts were more like mathematics, where there's an obvious correct answer, this would be a more productive exercise.
 
Le OP.

The idea that a Q&A thread about religion could be in any way useful or authoritative is, I think, deeply flawed. I discourage taking stock in the personal interpretation of any layman.
 
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