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Thread: Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

  1. #401
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    Re: Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Nope, you are merely trying to paint it so because you have no logical argument.
    No, I am not painting anything. Morals are subjective whether you want to admit it or not. Has nothing to do with my argument here and never did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The Marriage License is not a government issued and recognized contract? Is that what you're really saying? Lying is not going to help your case here.
    Is that all you have left? Going to accuse me a lying now?

    Look at my statement and who I was replying too. I am and was talking about gay marriage, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Morality has very little to do with government. Government is to be concerned with the rights and liberties of the individual. Not someone's sense of right and wrong. Morals and rights can line up; but legally it is rights which are the main concern.
    And yet the majority of our laws are mysteriously moral based.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I didn't say that you had to throw anything out. All I've said is that you cannot use government force to enact your moral code at the expense of the rights and liberties of the individual. It's not a tough concept.
    By law it has happend many, MANY times. So no, it seems it can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They can disagree all they want on non-religious grounds. They are still wrong. You cannot rightfully and justly enact laws which infringe upon the rights and liberties of others when that action in and of itself does not infringe upon the rights of anyone else. Besides, they may disagree for non-religious grounds; but you didn't.
    So again it is entirely subjective.

    I mean we now have eminent domain for private u



    And in that action against support for the free exercise of the rights and liberties of the individual, you have demonstrated that you do have a problem with protecting the rights of the individual. Support of action against the rights of the individual is not protection of the rights of the individual.[/QUOTE]
    "Some of these morons look at Barack Obama and see Magneto."- Kobie
    "My suggestion was to restructure his title using a colin. But you made such a big deal about it." - Serato

  2. #402
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    Re: Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No, I am not painting anything. Morals are subjective whether you want to admit it or not. Has nothing to do with my argument here and never did.
    I'm not making moral arguments, I've based my opinion in the rights and liberties of the individual. Not a personal sense of right and wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Is that all you have left? Going to accuse me a lying now?

    Look at my statement and who I was replying too. I am and was talking about gay marriage, period.
    True, and the Marriage License is the contract which is being denied. Which is a government issued and recognized contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    And yet the majority of our laws are mysteriously moral based.
    Not quite. Many of the just ones are based on the rights of the individual. Many of the laws which serve government and the aristocracy, however, are immoral at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    By law it has happend many, MANY times. So no, it seems it can.
    Rooting for tyranny isn't the best of all things. It may have happened in the past, but it was also corrected. It's not allowed to stand since it's against the very principles of the Republic itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    So again it is entirely subjective.

    I mean we now have eminent domain for private u
    You only want to make it sound subjective so as to not understand the full implications of what you support. Misdeeds of the current government do not support the cause of further misdeeds.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    You will have no rights to visitation benefits etc. If your spouse dies, you are SOL you are entitled to nothing but your own possessions. Come again?
    Those are rights guaranteed by the state. Where in the Bible are those things mentioned? Why should you deny those rights to same sex couples?

    I am not trying to force anything. How many times do I have to repeat this? I will not support it. I would no more support it then support freeing a guilty murderer.
    ROFL. The fact that you compare supporting same sex marriage to supporting the release of a guilty murderer shows how incapable you are of reasonably discussing this topic.

    My values no matter where they come from are mine. I don't care what yours are, thats why we have a legal system.
    Indeed. Including a court system which protects my constitutional rights of equal protection and due process by allowing me to marry someone of the same sex if I so choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    The marriages are not recognized by all states as legal, and most of them are not marriages but civil unions. Try again.
    Just so I am clear, are you saying that Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, Iowa, New Hampshire, and Washington DC do not have same sex marriage, they have civil unions? Do you really want to stand by that position? Are you really that ignorant of the situation?
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 11-09-10 at 05:59 PM.

  4. #404
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    Re: Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Nope, you are merely trying to paint it so because you have no logical argument.
    My argument is not only valid it is actually on topic. Yours is not, and as I said had nothing to do with my statement.

    The end.

    Original post...

    This is something I've been confused about for a while and I haven't really received an answer to it.

    I dont understand WHY being gay is wrong, I dont understand why the bible prohibits it. There are no medical or psychological reason for it being wrong, we are obviously socially flexible enough to incorporate the gay community into our society, our society hasnt collapsed, we dont really need to "go forth and multiply" anymore.

    So, why is being gay a sin?


    Any questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The Marriage License is not a government issued and recognized contract? Is that what you're really saying? Lying is not going to help your case here.
    Now you accuse me of lying? We were talking about gay marriage. Please don't play stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Morality has very little to do with government. Government is to be concerned with the rights and liberties of the individual. Not someone's sense of right and wrong. Morals and rights can line up; but legally it is rights which are the main concern.
    And yet the vast majority of our criminal laws are indeed based on morality. I notice you completely ignored my example.

    This is still irrelevant to my statement or original post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I didn't say that you had to throw anything out. All I've said is that you cannot use government force to enact your moral code at the expense of the rights and liberties of the individual. It's not a tough concept.
    It's not, but we were not really talking about the government throwing out anything.

    He tried to use "render unto Cesar" as some kind of bases for the law of the society we live in. I pointed out correctly gay marriage is not law according to the Feds and most of the states. In fact some states have amended their constitutions so it cannot be overturned by a judge.

    So obviously you can use government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They can disagree all they want on non-religious grounds. They are still wrong. You cannot rightfully and justly enact laws which infringe upon the rights and liberties of others when that action in and of itself does not infringe upon the rights of anyone else. Besides, they may disagree for non-religious grounds; but you didn't.
    They are wrong according to some, and not others.

    Obviously you can rightfully and justly enact laws which infringe upon the rights and liberties of others and many states have enacted such laws. So has the Federal government. I mean they suspended habeas corpus, don't tell me they can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And in that action against support for the free exercise of the rights and liberties of the individual, you have demonstrated that you do have a problem with protecting the rights of the individual. Support of action against the rights of the individual is not protection of the rights of the individual.
    I don't see gay marriage as a right as do many others. Hell allot of people don't see marriage as a right. Some people think we have a right to health care.

    Sorry, your subjective argument is just that.
    "Some of these morons look at Barack Obama and see Magneto."- Kobie
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  5. #405
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    fyi Re: Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Those are rights guaranteed by the state. Where in the Bible are those things mentioned? Why should you deny those rights to same sex couples?
    Has nothing to do with my response to you AGAIN.

    As for your question...

    Marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman, period. Thats why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    ROFL. The fact that you compare supporting same sex marriage to supporting the release of a guilty murderer shows how incapable you are of reasonably discussing this topic you are.
    No. You really need to stop assuming incorrectly the majority of the time.

    It shows how I view sin as sin. I also see adultery and lying in the same light. I don't support them either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Indeed. Including a court system which protects my constitutional rights of equal protection and due process by allowing me to marry someone of the same sex if I so choose.
    And if it happen, OK. If not, oh well. I really have no vested interest either way.

    My biggest beef is how non-Christians and so called Christians try to pervert the Bible to mean something it does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Just so I am clear, are you saying that Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, Iowa, New Hampshire, and Washington DC do not have same sex marriage, they have civil unions? Do you really want to stand by that position? Are you really that ignorant of the situation?
    Same-sex marriage, also referred to as gay marriage, is marriage between two persons of the same sex. The federal government of the United States does not recognize the marriages of same-sex couples and is prohibited from doing so by the Defense of Marriage Act. Nationwide, same-sex marriage is legal in three states as a result of a court ruling and in two others plus a district through a vote in their respective legislatures.

    Same-sex marriages are currently granted by five of the 50 states, one federal district, and one Indian tribe.
    -Same-sex marriage in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now do you understand my statement?
    "Some of these morons look at Barack Obama and see Magneto."- Kobie
    "My suggestion was to restructure his title using a colin. But you made such a big deal about it." - Serato

  6. #406
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    Re: Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    And if it happen, OK. If not, oh well. I really have no vested interest either way.

    My biggest beef is how non-Christians and so called Christians try to pervert the Bible to mean something it does not.
    What makes this really funny is that you have to assert yourself as an authority on how to "correctly" the interpret the Bible in order to make this argument. The fact is you are worth no more than any other person when it comes to interpreting the Bible. Their interpretation is just as valid as your own but with your superiority complex, you just can't stand the thought that it isn't your place to judge how others interpret the Bible. It is between them and God.

    It shows how I view sin as sin. I also see adultery and lying in the same light. I don't support them either.
    Ah, how sweet. The moment you see all sins as equal, then it makes the word meaningless. Everybody lies, so I guess it is alright if everyone cheats on their wife and murders their boss. After all, all sin is equal in God's eyes.

    Marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman, period. Thats why.
    According to 5 states, one US federal district, one US Indian tribe, and 10 other countries, you are wrong. But I suppose you can just ignore all those and pretend they are just cviil unions.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 11-09-10 at 06:48 PM.

  7. #407
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    Re: Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    What makes this really funny is that you have to assert yourself as an authority on how to "correctly" the interpret the Bible in order to make this argument. The fact is you are worth no more than any other person when it comes to interpreting the Bible. Their interpretation is just as valid as your own but with your superiority complex, you just can't stand the thought that it isn't your place to judge how others interpret the Bible. It is between them and God.
    What makes you think it's mine? I mean lets just ignore thousands of years of biblical scholars who have read it in it's original toungs etc. We will just go by someones Internet cut and past interpretation. I mean that is what it boils down to on this debate forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Ah, how sweet. The moment you see all sins as equal, then it makes the word meaningless. Everybody lies, so I guess it is alright if everyone cheats on their wife and murders their boss. After all, all sin is equal in God's eyes.
    You really need to actually study. You come off very uneducated biblically speaking. Of course you are not a Christian anyway, but you know so much more about my religion than I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    According to 5 states, one US federal district, one US Indian tribe, and 10 other countries, you are wrong. But I suppose you can just ignore all those and pretend they are just cviil unions.
    You are way off target and completly ignore my point. That's par for the course I guess.
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  8. #408
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    Re: Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Any questions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Since gay marriage does not exist on the books, and never has. What exactly is their to render?

    If your hand causes you to sin, better to cut it off than face hellfire.
    Any questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Now you accuse me of lying? We were talking about gay marriage. Please don't play stupid.
    Yeah, I know we were talking about gay marriage. That's why I brought up the Marriage License. Because in the context of gay marriage, that is the contract being forbidden from certain couples. Please don't be stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    And yet the vast majority of our criminal laws are indeed based on morality. I notice you completely ignored my example.
    What example? I saw that you made the same statement twice, but no example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    This is still irrelevant to my statement or original post.
    It is not irrelecant to the gay marriage debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It's not, but we were not really talking about the government throwing out anything.

    He tried to use "render unto Cesar" as some kind of bases for the law of the society we live in. I pointed out correctly gay marriage is not law according to the Feds and most of the states. In fact some states have amended their constitutions so it cannot be overturned by a judge.

    So obviously you can use government.
    Not justly, because the government issues the Marriage License, which is a State issued and recognized contract. Forbidding certain couples from engaging in the contract is a violation of their right to contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    They are wrong according to some, and not others.

    Obviously you can rightfully and justly enact laws which infringe upon the rights and liberties of others and many states have enacted such laws. So has the Federal government. I mean they suspended habeas corpus, don't tell me they can't.
    No, you can enact laws which infringe upon the rights and liberties of others. But those laws are never rightful nor just.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I don't see gay marriage as a right as do many others. Hell allot of people don't see marriage as a right. Some people think we have a right to health care.
    You have right to contract, and it is contract which is being denied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Sorry, your subjective argument is just that.
    It's only seen like that by those wishing to engage in tyranny.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    What makes you think it's mine? I mean lets just ignore thousands of years of biblical scholars who have read it in it's original toungs etc. We will just go by someones Internet cut and past interpretation. I mean that is what it boils down to on this debate forum.
    Yawn...an appeal to tradition fallacy. Made all the more pathetic by the fact that the tradition has changed a number of times over the centuries. Heck, a lot of people are starting to question whether the Church actually endorsed some same sex marriages in its early history among its leadership.

    Of course you are not a Christian anyway, but you know so much more about my religion than I do.
    Yes I do. I used to be Christian after all; went to Sunday School, member of Boy Scouts, studied in Youth Group, etc. all the way up to college. Atheists and agnotics generally do know more than believers about Christianity. But I'm mainly making fun of your own argument, not really making a Biblical argument. Of course, it's a pretty transparent defense mechanism when you start accusing other people of being uneducated instead of simply demonstrating it and you proclaim they have to be an active member of your religion to know anything about it. Pretty weak stuff.

    You are way off target and completly ignore my point. That's par for the course I guess.
    You never have any points. You simply make false statements and then get pissed and argue that people are ignoring them when it is made clear they are false.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 11-09-10 at 07:15 PM.

  10. #410
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    Re: Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Any questions?
    Why? You are the one who did not get it not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yeah, I know we were talking about gay marriage. That's why I brought up the Marriage License. Because in the context of gay marriage, that is the contract being forbidden from certain couples. Please don't be stupid.
    OK please explain to me how in my original response you replied to fits into...

    So, why is being gay a sin?

    Please explain for us stupid people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    What example? I saw that you made the same statement twice, but no example.
    The law I used as an example of legislated morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It is not irrelecant to the gay marriage debate
    In context to my response and the thread it certainly is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not justly, because the government issues the Marriage License, which is a State issued and recognized contract. Forbidding certain couples from engaging in the contract is a violation of their right to contract.
    Obviously I disagree.

    Again your opinion and has nothing to do with my statement or this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, you can enact laws which infringe upon the rights and liberties of others. But those laws are never rightful nor just.
    Again your opinion and has nothing to do with my statement or this thread.

    It's not even that I don't appreciate your opinion, but it really has nothing to do with my statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You have right to contract, and it is contract which is being denied.
    Freedom of contract is the freedom of individuals and corporations to form contracts without government restrictions. This is not the case in our government. Restrictions exist. The rest of what you state is nothing but libertarian ideals and not actual law.

    We have labor laws. We have child labor laws etc. This is just a small example of the restrictions on contracts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's only seen like that by those wishing to engage in tyranny.
    You can cut out with the libertarian stuff now. I really think you are the one who wants to enforce your tyranny on anyone who's morals disagree with yours.
    "Some of these morons look at Barack Obama and see Magneto."- Kobie
    "My suggestion was to restructure his title using a colin. But you made such a big deal about it." - Serato

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