• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

fault with the logic. I made this point earlier in the thread. i am not against homosexuality, I am against using faulty logic/arguements to argue for it.

Understood... it seemed like a strange step for you if that was not the case.
 
I think that we have a better understanding now, than was the case in the old and new testament era, that being gay is literally in the genes. And, I don't think God makes mistakes. I think that Oscar nailed it when he stated that it's God's job to rule on sin, not humanity's. You can disagree like hell about someone's lifestyle, but ultimately, it's between them and God.

So you think we understand better than those who literally talked and walked with God? OK.

Now I do believe it is between them and God, but we are commanded by God to live by example. Being sexually immoral is not doing that.

Being gay is not literally in the genes at all. Please point out the scientific study that found this elusive gay gene?

In all truthfulness, I think Christians would be better served by reaching out and loving the gay community than by completely alienating them. I can't believe that's God's will for this situation.

Many gay reach out programs exist in the Christian community...

MySpace - Gay Christian Outreach - 38 - Male - SPRINGFIELD, MISSOURI - myspace.com/gaychristians

Christian couple create gay outreach group | ECWR Community

Search - gay christian outreach

Beyond that, you, and other believers, sin daily. Sin does not, in fact, separate believers from God, because Christ is the advocate. I'm a once-saved, always-saved girl, because I believe that is a scriptural concept.

You cannot continually sin and expect to remain saved. At some point you are obviously not repentent and that is what eventually seperates people from God.

This is not to pick on you or insult you as I did before. Please look in the mirror, can you tell me you still have faith in God? And believe whole heartedly Christ is your savior? If you can't, then you know what separation I am talking about.

Gay Christians are answerable to God, not to me--or you. They have the opportunity to deal directly with God, and the holy spirit, and if they are sinning---GOD IS BIG ENOUGH TO HANDLE THAT JOB. He does not require your assistance.

Again he does require us to lead by example. Condoning sin is not the way even though I do not sit in judgment.

As far as gays who aren't Christians--they are alienated, not reached, by these tactics. This whole "homosexuality is a sin" schtick is all about making believers feel self-righteous and not at all about being Christlike or sharing the message of the hope and love to be found in Christ. It's about condemnation, not crucifixion.

In far too many cases I agree, but not in all. In fact those who set themselfs above are in just as much danger of hell fire as any gay person.

Who cares if homosexuality is a sin? There are lots of sins. You sin multiple times EVERY SINGLE DAY. But, sin and death have no power over you, because of Christ.

We all face death at some point, maybe not the final death, but death just the same. I agree, but this does not mean we can support adultery, incest and fornication any more than homosexuality. I don't support morally corrupt idea's. This is not the way of Christ.

God still loves you, and he is constantly reaching out to you, even though you sin. And, because of that, you change.

That's the message of Christ. It's that simple.

I agree, but the majority as is stated in the Bible will not change and are no more than vipers, the devil has his way.
 
Last edited:
So you think we understand better than those who literally talked and walked with God? OK.

I think there are a lot of things that we understand better, scientifically speaking, ABSOLUTELY, than the people of ancient times. And this is one of them. The people who literally walked and talked with God, for instance, thought mental illness was demon possession. They thought illness was a result of sin. They thought the stars rotated around the earth. They believed the earth was flat. They believed in stoning adulterers.

Do you think we should go back to that level of understanding about the world?

Now I do believe it is between them and God, but we are commanded by God to live by example. Being sexually immoral is not doing that.

Again, that is between them and God.

Being gay is not literally in the genes at all. Please point out the scientific study that found this elusive gay gene?

I've known enough gay people to understand that NO ONE would choose to be gay. NO ONE. People cope with it, they learn to be happy, they survive, but there is a reason that the gay suicide rate is 3 times higher than the straight one. It's a hard, hard life, and that's mainly because of the people who tell them that they were made wrong.


Those gay outreach programs are based not on telling people about the love of Christ, but trying to convince them, yet again, that they were made improperly and should not be who they are.

You cannot continually sin and expect to remain saved. At some point you are obviously not repentent and that is what eventually seperates people from God.

Really. You've mastered the art of not sinning? Did you sin today, BD?

I hope God didn't give up on you.
 
So you don't see incest as immoral? If you did, you would have to say that homosexuality is a sin as well to avoid being branded a hypocrite.

That's not the question you asked me. How/what I perceive to be immoral is completely subjective, and I realize this. It would be nice if you realized the same thing.

:D
 
Maybe it has something to do with the absurd fact that Christians can attack people through their beliefs all day long, but if anyone challenges those beliefs then it is unforgivable

only one thing is unforgiveable, and no one is even sure what that thing is.

secondly, Christianity does not attack people; it recognizes actions as sinful. a distinction that you and Catz seem either unable or unwilling to acknowledge.

How nice it must be that you can attack other people's character through your God but if anyone questions the character of your God, then that is just downright uncivil and trolling!

honest questioning no, certainly not, i encourage it. but that is not descriptive of Catz (a poster whom i normally enjoy) behavior on this thread, any more than it is of middleagedgamers on similar topics.

Peh, it is absolutely pathetic and it is for that exact reason I have such contempt for the religion.

see, there's the difference; none of us have contempt for you because of your belief system, nor even contempt for your belief system itself.
 
It's the truth, from your perspective. However, you're not god, much as that might pain you.

on the contrary; i wouldn't want the authority to declare what is and is not sinful. fortunately; i don't have to give you "the truth from my perspective"; on the topic of sexuality, God has given us His.
 
I think there are a lot of things that we understand better, scientifically speaking, ABSOLUTELY, than the people of ancient times. And this is one of them. The people who literally walked and talked with God, for instance, thought mental illness was demon possession. They thought illness was a result of sin. They thought the stars rotated around the earth. They believed the earth was flat. They believed in stoning adulterers.

And yet Gods law has stood the test of time. You do not need to understand the mechanics of science to understand Gods commands.

Do you think we should go back to that level of understanding about the world?

That is irrelevant, the law is just and moral. It has nothing at all to do with our understanding of science, nothing at all.

Again, that is between them and God.

Again yes it does, but we are not to condone or support immorality are we?

I've known enough gay people to understand that NO ONE would choose to be gay. NO ONE.

And I have known enough to call BS on that. In fact I lived in a gay household, so is my anecdotal evidence as valid as yours? Or should we just except anecdotal evidence is not really proof of anything.

This still did not answer my question: Where is the scientific report saying that being gay is heredity or a gene?

People cope with it, they learn to be happy, they survive, but there is a reason that the gay suicide rate is 3 times higher than the straight one. It's a hard, hard life, and that's mainly because of the people who tell them that they were made wrong.

I tell adulterers they are sinners and need to repent, they don't go and kill themselves. I tell fornicators the same thing. They don't go and kill themselves. I also tell lier's, thief's etc exactly the same things.

It is more than just religion causing the problem. Soceity is not ready to accept the gay life style as moral or right. This is changing, but for now they are not.

Those gay outreach programs are based not on telling people about the love of Christ, but trying to convince them, yet again, that they were made improperly and should not be who they are.

You did not look at the links did you?

They ARE gay Christians who run the first 2 groups I posted.

Really. You've mastered the art of not sinning? Did you sin today, BD?

I hope God didn't give up on you.

Please don't take my comments out of context, I don't do that to you. Here is my statement...

You cannot continually sin and expect to remain saved. At some point you are obviously not repentent and that is what eventually seperates people from God.

This is not to pick on you or insult you as I did before. Please look in the mirror, can you tell me you still have faith in God? And believe whole heartedly Christ is your savior? If you can't, then you know what separation I am talking about.
- Blackdog

Care to answer? You don't have to and I will understand, but you will have made my point either way.
 
Last edited:
So, two men loving one another, or two women, results in death, pain and sorrow.

yes. as two people loving each other who happen to be married to different people does.

because death is the wages of sin; ditto for pain and sorrow. it is possible for 'love' to lead to that, indeed, plenty of loves do: love of money, love of power, love of anything which serves to separate you from God inevitably results in pain, sorrow, and death.

I'm sorry that you have such a distorted and negative view of the deity that you call a loving God.

given that he seems to have a much more solid understanding, i would suggest that perhaps if one view is distorted here, it may not be his.

So many Christians see their faith as a religion of "no," when in reality, if you look at Christ's teaching, it is really a religion of "yes."

that is certainly true. Christ's basic message was of love for the individual triumphing over that persons sin. the story of the adulterous is the best example, and he who is with sin is forever since forbidden from throwing stones. but note the end of the tale: go now and sin no more. sin does not cease to be sin simply because the individual who participates in it is loved. and just as you don't love a heroin addict by enabling them; you don't love a fellow sinner by pretending that what they do that is wrong is just fine.

It is my sincere belief that Christ came specifically to replace the failed system of legalism, rules and empty meaningless religion with something real. Don't you get it? The rules had already failed to create righteousness.

how fascinating: that is precisely what Paul taught :)

Let me put it like this. Every single gay person you encounter, whether they are online or in real life, is really Jesus in diguise.

:D are you saying that they are the least of these?

certainly it is true that the Church in general has failed at making the homosexual community feel loved.

Are they strangers that you're taking in? Are they prisoners that you're visiting? Are you taking your faith in Christ, and translating it into real, loving service of other human beings?

If you can't love gays and lesbians, and I mean REALLY love them...treat them with dignity, kindness, respect, affection, support and caring, without judging them...how can you possibly claim to love Jesus Christ?

feel free to ask my little sister (by choice, we are not related but she claims me and we were raised together). when she came out, she came out to me and asked me for help finding the courage to go to her parents. even today i am the one she comes to - not because i haven't been honest with her on my beliefs - but because she knows that above all else she is loved.

Like I said...in my view, you are missing the most important message that Jesus Christ came to bring you.

and i think you are misrepresenting the Christians on this thread; assuming that they can only hold the belief that something is sinful if they look down upon and degrade the people who participate in it. how silly; one of the core beliefs of Christianity is that we are all sinners; to include ourselves. my favorite sin? gluttony :D that doesn't mean that i have to walk around hating myself and degrading myself in order to recognize that sin, it simply means i have to accept myself - just as i accept homosexuals - as Fallen.
 
Last edited:
secondly, Christianity does not attack people; it recognizes actions as sinful. a distinction that you and Catz seem either unable or unwilling to acknowledge.

Christianity totally attacks people. Just because you deem it "sin" does not take away from the fact that you are telling people their behavior is wrong and that you are comparing them to people who genuinely harm others like murderers. The only reason you can get away with it is you claim that you are just acting as a proxy for your God.

Well I can do that as well.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) says that it is "bigotry" to judge gay people because they sleep with people of the same sex. I'm just the FSM's dedicated follower, but I recognize that you are a bigot. Of course you can't get angry at me because I'm just following what the FSM says. I recommend you repent from your bigoting ways or face the wrath of the FSM's noodlely appendage!
 
Last edited:
Christianity totally attacks people. Just because you deem it "sin" does not take away from the fact that you are telling people their behavior is wrong and that you are comparing them to people who genuinely harm others like murderers. The only reason you can get away with it is you claim that you are just acting as a proxy for your God.

Their are extreme religious groups that do do this. Their are extreme religious people within these groups that also do this. This is not Christianity as a whole and extreme blanket statements with a touch of hyperbole do not help the situation at all. Nor does it make a convincing argument.

Well I can do that as well.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) says that it is "bigotry" to judge gay people because they sleep with people of the same sex. I'm just the FSM's dedicated follower, but I recognize that you are a bigot. Of course you can't get angry at me because I'm just following what the FSM says. I recommend you repent from your bigoting ways or face the wrath of the FSM's noodlely appendage!

That is silly at best.

Bigotry would be some kind of fear or hatred of gays, this is far from the truth. We accept the sinner, if we did not, churches would be empty. We fight against the sin, not the person.
 
Last edited:
Their are extreme religious groups that do do this. Their are extreme religious people within these groups that also do this. This is not Christianity as a whole and extreme blanket statements with a touch of hyperbole do not help the situation at all. Nor does it make a convincing argument.

You are calling digsbe an extremeist?

That is silly at best.

Bigotry would be some kind of fear or hatred of gays, this is far from the truth. We accept the sinner, if we did not, churches would be empty. We fight against the sin, not the person.

Hey! Take it up with the FSM! He is the one who said it, not me! I accept the bigot, I'm simply fighting the bigotry, not the person. I can't be held responsible for the eternal truths foretold by our sacred Pastafarian deity! I'm just a dedicated follower and clearly he says it is "bigotry" to judge gays for sleeping with people of the same sex so I must condemn that behavior as equivalent to racism and sexism. You can't get angry at me for simply following my religious beliefs.
 
Last edited:
on the contrary; i wouldn't want the authority to declare what is and is not sinful. fortunately; i don't have to give you "the truth from my perspective"; on the topic of sexuality, God has given us His.

God has declared a lot of things to be sinful. When I see you ranting, daily, about the fatties (aka gluttons), I'll take you more seriously.
 
And yet Gods law has stood the test of time. You do not need to understand the mechanics of science to understand Gods commands.

Your history knowledge is sketchy. God's "Law" has been enforced differently, from one place to another, from one generation to another, and from one era to another, depending on the cultural priorities of the people enforcing it. Spare me how it's unchanging. It isn't unchanging. You emphasize one particular sin, repeatedly, over all others. In another era, a different sin--maybe making too many pictures of saints, for instance or painting pictures of pagan gods--would have resulted in public executions. It's difficult to take these claims seriously because they are too easily proven to be false.

That is irrelevant, the law is just and moral. It has nothing at all to do with our understanding of science, nothing at all.

So, when Galileo was prosecuted for the heresy of daring to suggest that the earth wasn't flat, and that the stars didn't rotate around the earth, was that science? Or just and moral law? See, just and moral are both subjective, not objective terms. They vary from time to time, place to place, and pretending otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

With the loss of many of his defenders in Rome because of Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo was ordered to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. The sentence of the Inquisition was in three essential parts:

Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy," namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[50]

He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[51] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.

His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[52] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

I know that you are parrotting a set of beliefs. You keep repeating them, as if repetition will make them more true or logical. What you apparently don't realize is that these beliefs are based on circular logic and thus, are inherently fallacious from a logical perspective.

This is how it works...
Blackdog: "These rules are moral and just."
Catz: How do we know this?
Blackdog: Because God told us.
Catz: How do we know that God told us?
Blackdog: Because the Bible says so.
Catz: How do we know the bible is accurate?
Blackdog: Because the Bible says so.

The Bible cannot be used to prove it's own validity. So, your point is a logical fail. It's not even that it requires faith, but that logically, you cannot use the Bible to prove the truthfulness of the Bible. In what court of law, or any other system, would we take that sort of "proof" as rational and reasonable? NONE....except the realm of religion.

Now, you can keep saying this stuff repeatedly, but that doesn't make it logically true or factually true. And, it would be good for you to recognize that. There is no such thing as objective truth in the subjective realm of morality. ALL MORALITY IS INHERENTLY SUBJECTIVE.

So, the only way to weigh it is to compare the effects. Is it more effective to condemn gays as sinners and throw stones at them? Or, to approach them in love, and tell them about hope?

Which would you be more likely to respond to?

Again yes it does, but we are not to condone or support immorality are we?

Is it condoning immorality to leave the fatties at church alone and not constantly harp at them about their gluttony? How many times, exactly, do you feel the need to throw someone's divorce in his/her face? There is the ideal, and then there is the practical reality that every single human being falls short of perfection every single day, and none of us is really in the position to judge other people. And, that judging isn't NECESSARY or EXPEDIENT for us or them. Our job is to be like Christ. Our job is to take up OUR OWN CROSS and follow him.

Our job is not to tell other people that they aren't carrying their cross the right way.

And I have known enough to call BS on that. In fact I lived in a gay household, so is my anecdotal evidence as valid as yours? Or should we just except anecdotal evidence is not really proof of anything.

Okay. Call bull****. My perspective remains as valid as yours. YOu can't prove that it isn't genetic, but but you believe it isn't. I can't prove that it is genetic, but I believe it is. What makes your beliefs more valid than mine?

This still did not answer my question: Where is the scientific report saying that being gay is heredity or a gene?

I did answer your question, and let's put it like this: Even if there were a scientific report, you'd ignore it, because it conflicts with your "moral authority."

I tell adulterers they are sinners and need to repent, they don't go and kill themselves. I tell fornicators the same thing. They don't go and kill themselves. I also tell lier's, thief's etc exactly the same things.

Why do I find this hard to believe? Do you tell fatties to go and lose weight because their gluttony is dishonoring God? Feel free to provide evidence of this. A video clip would be fine.

It is more than just religion causing the problem. Soceity is not ready to accept the gay life style as moral or right. This is changing, but for now they are not.

Moral and right are subjective terms. There are places in the world where eating your enemy's liver is considered moral and right. So, please stop using these terms as if they are factual. They aren't. Moral and right is what YOUR RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY says it is, today. It could change tomorrow. It will definitely change in 100 years. 150 years ago, it was morally right to own black people as property. The church said so. So did the Bible. It was morally wrong for a white person to marry a black person (miscegenation). The white person and the black person could be prosecuted and thrown in prison for loving each other.

Was slavery morally right? Or, does what is morally right change over time? Or was slavery ALWAYS morally wrong, and thus, the Bible's stance on it is also wrong?

You tell me.

They ARE gay Christians who run the first 2 groups I posted.

Are they formerly gay, or currently gay?

Please don't take my comments out of context, I don't do that to you. Here is my statement...

You cannot continually sin and expect to remain saved. At some point you are obviously not repentent and that is what eventually seperates people from God.

But you do sin repeatedly, Blackdog. At least be honest about it. Is there a single day that goes by that you don't sin?

So, why are YOUR sins so forgiveable, but being gay is so UNforgivable? You're being inconsistent here, and I'm calling you on that fact.

If I thought you were worthless, I'd ignore you like I do most of the religious morons on here. (which, at this point, you might prefer--if that's the case, let me know)

This is not to pick on you or insult you as I did before. Please look in the mirror, can you tell me you still have faith in God? And believe whole heartedly Christ is your savior? If you can't, then you know what separation I am talking about.[/b] - Blackdog

I don't know. That's the honest answer. Do I still believe in God? Maybe. I try. Do I believe in religion? Not at all. I believe in Matthew 25. I lost my faith about 10 years ago, and was religiously abused by my ex-husband, who cheated on me repeatedly and used my faith to tear me down every single day.

Did I want to lose my faith? Oh my god, NO. It was the worst thing I've ever gone through in my life. I spent about six months crying and terrified. Do I hate God? Absolutely not. Do I hate religion? No, but I fear it. It was used to rip my heart out by the one person I loved the most in the world.

I don't know if there is a God, but what I do know is that--in this lifetime--the only way that I can truly KNOW HIM, face to face, is through the things he's made. Specifically, the people, who were made in his image. And, if I can't love other people, I certainly can't love God.

It's weird, though. I do care about this stuff. It makes me sad to see people of faith tearing down and injuring gays and lesbians out of fear. It makes me really sad. Frankly, I can't think of ANYTHING that is less Christlike.

However, having said all of this...your tactics here are ad hominem. Either my points are supported in scripture, or they aren't. Attempting to attack MY personal relationship with God in order to ignore the points I've made is pretty....UNchristian.

Care to answer? You don't have to and I will understand, but you will have made my point either way.

It isn't making a point to throw a stone at me and call me an unbeliever, dude. It's losing a logical argument.
 
Last edited:
I also want to illustrate a point.

Apparently, 127 nice people ON THIS FORUM (77% of voters) feel that being gay is so wrong that it deserves the death penalty:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/84894-homosexuality-potentially-punishable-death.html

This is a survey ostensibly voted on by people FROM THIS BOARD. How do you think the gay people who post here are likely to feel when they see this? Would you enjoy seeing a survey posted here where an overwhelming majority of people thought blacks should be put to death simply for being black?

It's connected. Once you dehumanize people as getagrip has done in his posts, it becomes easy to advocate killing the evil sodomists/perverts/sexual deviants. After all, it's what God wants.

It makes me sick.

Do you realize that the religious right in the U.S. created this situation in Uganda, using the same reasoning that both you and Getagrip have posted here? It's true. http://www.religiondispatches.org/a...eligious_right_and_the_lgbt_crisis_in_uganda/

How do you think Jesus Christ feels about his words being used as a reason to kill gays/lesbians for the "crime" of being gay?
 
Last edited:
funny how I always hear about the "religious right" and how they hate gays.... no one ever seems to mention that some of the biggest gay haters and racists are white southern baptist democrats. but I guess that since they are not a big nationwide group...they don't count.
 
Hate the sin, not the sinner. We should continue to enlighten them for the sake of their souls.
 
white southern baptist democrats. but I guess that since they are not a big nationwide group...they don't count.

That's because these creatures are so rare that they are largely mythological in this day and age. The last of them were almost wiped out during the great seminary rebellions of the 1980s and 1990s.
 
That's because these creatures are so rare that they are largely mythological in this day and age. The last of them were almost wiped out during the great seminary rebellions of the 1980s and 1990s.

meh...montgomery, birmingham and mobile are full of em.
 
Christianity totally attacks people.

it certainly does not; Catz has this part correct

Just because you deem it "sin" does not take away from the fact that you are telling people their behavior is wrong and that you are comparing them to people who genuinely harm others like murderers.

identifying certain behaviors as wrong is hardly itself wrong. you yourself do it regularly. as for the 'telling people their behavior is wrong' bit, i start with the admission that i myself also engage in sinful behavior; i don't pretend to be any better a person than anyone here under discussion.

which is where you are mistaken; to look down upon others is to put oneself above them. Christianity doesn't do that; though admittedly some Christians and non-Christians do.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) says that it is "bigotry" to judge gay people because they sleep with people of the same sex.

:) well then he will be happy to know that no one on this thread does that.
 
meh...montgomery, birmingham and mobile are full of em.

i've been to a share of Baptist churches in 'bama. I don't recall (for example) the Hunter Street Baptist church parking lot being chock full of democrat bumper stickers.
 
God has declared a lot of things to be sinful. When I see you ranting, daily, about the fatties (aka gluttons), I'll take you more seriously.

when do you see me ranting and raving about homosexuals? as for gluttons, i can rant about them all i want; i'm one of them :lol:
 
i've been to a share of Baptist churches in 'bama. I don't recall (for example) the Hunter Street Baptist church parking lot being chock full of democrat bumper stickers.

Take a drive through Decatur, First baptist church parking lot, you'll see plenty of "Obama" stickers.


I just find it funny that all christian people get stereotyped as "the religious right". about as accurate as stating all white people are racist or that all black people like fried chicken and grape koolaid.
 
my dad was the pastor of Trinity United Methodist in Decatur for the past 9 or so years; i spent my summers, some weekends, and vacations there while i was going to birmingham southern. not discounting your point about white racists or black chicken lovers, but i don't recall (again) running into alot of white democrat baptists in that town.
 
my dad was the pastor of Trinity United Methodist in Decatur for the past 9 or so years; i spent my summers, some weekends, and vacations there while i was going to birmingham southern. not discounting your point about white racists or black chicken lovers, but i don't recall (again) running into alot of white democrat baptists in that town.

that's cause you were hanging out with the methodists :lamo
 
:) who are more likely to be liberal than baptists in that region. but, again, i went to my share of baptists churches; my friends tended to break down into baptists and catholics.
 
Back
Top Bottom