cpwill

indeed it is. murder being the killing of someone whom we recognize to be a human.

so my question becomes, if windovervocalcords recognizes an unborn baby as human, and does not wish to illegalize the killing; then how does she justify that (assuming her position here) with support for illegalizing the killing of older humans? is killing (say) measured by age, and killing a 4 year old less of a crime than killing a 50 year old?

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"Hitherto no one, in the United States, has dared to advance the maxim, that everything is permissible with a view to the interests of society; an impious adage, which seems to have been invented in an age of freedom, to shelter all the rants of future ages." - Alexis deTocqueville, 1835

GManNickG

No, murder is killing against the law, by definition. It just so happens we as a society (and most of the race) find it should be illegal. Ergo killing a human becomes murder.

Ethos

Murder is a legal term always dependent on circumstances. Elective abortion before a certain time is not murder - killing someone else's fetus in utero, or otherwise forcing a miscarriage, is murder.

Even killing certain non-human animals is illegal depending on the circumstances. Whaling, for instance, is illegal for most, but legitimate for others.

If we're going to discuss the ethics of killing - and abortion, while not "murder," does kill - then we're forced to include the entire animal kingdom, not just humanity.

Otherwise the discussion is fundamentally religious and not open to objective debate.

Ethos

windovervocalcords

I agree with many of your points and merely add that this is a religious forum and religious topic are open to debate.

__________________
"Every message, regardless of form or content, is an expression of a need."

Marshall Rosenberg, author and trainer in Non-Violent Communication.

Ethos

"Objective debate."

windovervocalcords

You can still have a reasoned, objective debate among people who follow a spiritual path. We don't all check our brains at the door when we open our hearts.

__________________
"Every message, regardless of form or content, is an expression of a need."

Marshall Rosenberg, author and trainer in Non-Violent Communication.

Aunt Spiker

My views are quite practical - neither hinging on religious or moral qualms.

Foremost- I prefer that people raise the children they have - and take full responsibility for the life they carry. I support adoption but prefer that parents be responsible all around without putting their decisions in life off on other people.

Practical things should be the focus when discussing life and death of something as helpless as a newborn child:

Can one afford proper neonatal care in some degree?
Diapers, possible formula if it's necessary?
Is there a stable home environment (not necessarily a two-parent home, but a stable home - electricity, water, shelter, food, at least one stable parent who can handle the stress and demands of having a new child)?
Transportation (don't have to own your own vehicle - but have to be able to take the child to the Dr's when it's necessary).

So on, so forth - if these basic things are not present then the child shouldn't be brought into the family - either birth and adopt or abort.

If someone is incapable or unable or just refuses to properly care for theirself and their unborn child then I think it's best they abort. Especially if drugs are being used or if the mother drinks.

It's hard enough to find a home willing to adopt any unwanted child - let alone one who is born with ailments, addition and defects because of the mother's selfish ignorance.

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windovervocalcords

They may be practical, but they are ethical or moral.

__________________
"Every message, regardless of form or content, is an expression of a need."

Marshall Rosenberg, author and trainer in Non-Violent Communication.

Aunt Spiker

Some of it is moral (such as believing that parents should take responsibility) - but the notion of government-assistance is a modern thing. Before it was even possible to get help for your family care it was really just a fact of life that you had to care for your own.

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windovervocalcords

That's why pregnant women got kicked out of the house because the families did such a good job of taking care of their own.

__________________
"Every message, regardless of form or content, is an expression of a need."

Marshall Rosenberg, author and trainer in Non-Violent Communication.